Posted: 12/20/2006 4:30:31 PM EDT
|
This is nothing new, but something that I figured I should ask here, since practice and time aren't helping as much as I had hoped they would... My Kimber TLE RL does not have an aftermarket magwell on it, and I've found that it is quite easy for a magazine to get caught up during a speed reload. I figure in time I would get better at "aiming" the magazine, but this issue isn't working itself out as I had hoped it would. Should I keep practicing, or should I just admit to myself that there is a really good reason that the magwells were invented  ?I figure it might be appropraite add on a magazine well. I was wondering if you guys could recommend one that would require minimal fitting, and be as low profile as possible. I have gunner grips on there right now, and they are not the flat bottom mag-well cut grips, and I would like to avoid having to replace those to have a clean look. What mag well do you guys recommend? Also, I use a TON of USGI magazines with my Kimber, because they have proven to be just as reliable as anything else. I have heard there are glue on base-pads available...do this things hold up to hard usage? The mags spend alot of their time on my plate carrier, so I am pretty rough on them, and I don't want to have to worry about the glue-on basepads falling off. Also, where might I aquire both of these items? Thanks, Scott |
|
There is actually some technique involved indoing a smooth and fast reload. First, index your gun with your elbow tucked in to your side, your gun essentially low in front of your face near your body's centerline, your wrist turned so your are looking at your fingernails and side of the gun. You have 1) already released your mag for a speed reload, allowing it to fall free, 2) assisted the mag OUT with your support hand and away so you don't slip on a fallen mag in front of your feet, or 3) will perform a tactical reload with your spare mag. Thus, the depleted mag is still in place. Second, grasp your spare mag with your support hand and remove from your carrier. If done properly, your index finger is projecting UP the front surface of the magazine (bullet nose facing forward). You can use this finger to help guide the mag into your mag well, and your palm to firmly insert the mag, all in one smooth motion. NOTE: the gun is in front of your face, allowing a brief look if needed. You should be focused on your target, however, not your gun!!! Your gun is NOT flopping somewhere around in front of you. You insert the mag, use your support hand to pull back and release the slide (if needed) and then reengage as needed with a proper grip on the gun. Using your support hand to retract the slide is the same motion you would use to perform a malfunction clearance. It is a slide STOP, not a slide RELEASE  Do it slow. Get the motion ingrained, and then speed it up. Also, if you don't have a timer, get one! The best thing you can do is get some proper training from a competent instructor. |
|
To prove the concept, you could try one of the slip on (goes over the two bottom grip screw escutcheons) mag wells made of hard polymer. I am sure Wilson used to make some but others may do so as well.) If that works for you you can upgrade from there if you want to. My experience has been that...for me...the mag wells do, indeed help with reliable reloads under stress...especially when moving or when I am not able to look at the gun, such as in the dark or if I were in a fight. With the mags you have now, try grabbing them with your index finger pointing upward along the front of the mag and base seated well into the palm. Start the mag from the rear and "rock" into the mag well then up into place. Also try bringing the gun in closer to the center chest when loading...you are both stronger and more dexterous close to the body's centerline...you will NOT be slower with this method, but even if you are it is worth it for the added reliability it gives. GI mage are notorious for having the baseplates fall off due to piss poor spot welds on wartime mags. I would not use 'em if you gave me a dozen except maybe for range use. (In fact I have given several away over the years) Glue on pads generally suck in my experience but maybe they have better glue these days. |
To add to this, you WILL have to use a magazine with an extended base pad if you want to have fast reloads. When you add a magwell, it basically extends the bottom of your frame. The magazines that used to sit flush now sit "up" into the magwell. The extended base gives you contact with your magazine so it can be inserted all the way into your pistol. A fast, cheap way to add a magwell is to get the Wilson Combat EZ-Loader. However, if you want a more permanent mainspring housing magwell, the only way to go is Smith & Alexander. |
Could you elaborate on this? I'm having a hard time picturing it. Scott |
This is almost exactly how I perform a mag change. Very well written I put the first pad of my index finger on the end of the bullet. Just to give it a consistant place to go.
|
|
Paulw007 is correct. Taking the fraction of a second to glance at the magwell beats flubbing the reload because you were too "tactical" to look. Do it right during the day, and the night won't slow you down one bit. To Marksman14, I encourage you to keep working on the reload. If you are unable to master the reload without the aid of an external magwell, then the technique might be flawed and it would probably not be prudent to continue without formal guidance. Purchasing the illusion of proficiency may provide short-term relief but might ultimately hinder your progress as a shooter. |
Take the magazine in your hand. Put the flat of the rear of the magazine against the flat at the back of the magazine well. To do this you have to tip the magazine forward. Then rotate it to match the angle of the mag well and insert it. |
| I also find that with the skinny 1911 magazines a slight pause at the entrance to assure alignment helps. I don't use this technique with my double stack magazines but the opening is much larger. There is such a small window to hit it right with the 1911. Practice slow, then work the speed up slowly. Really focus on the opening of the magwell and you will improve with pactice. Good luck. |
Roger that....thats what I thought. Combining all the advice I've seen here actually has gotten me to the point where I am slappin' mags in that thing pretty damned fast. Thanks for the advice guys, looks like I'll be able to skip the magwell, and practice with what I got. The most fun is when I try to do it blindfolded...I'll still get in the habit of looking, but the faster I can get without looking...I suppose that can't hurt. |
|
An instructor of mine compared looking at your mag well to mall shopping with your wife/GF. It's OK for a quick look at a hottie (mag well), just don't get caught looking when you should be focused on something else The important thing is proper mechanics. Speed will come with practice. Of course, the guys I shoot/train with all now practice from concealment. That is another layer of complications to deal with-but essential if you carry. |
Very well written. The only addittion/change I would suggest is that you do not release the spent magazine until you have acquired the fresh magazine and have it moving up and toward the weapon. This concept of "passing in flght" provides a visual cue you can pick up on through your peripheral vision. You will subconsciously track the trajectory of the spent magazine as it falls and that will help you to insert the fresh magazine. Skip the mag well and keep practicing with the techniques that others have provided, but make sure you practive perfect. Slowly at first, speed will come as you perfect the techniques. |
|
It's interesting about half the people are saying get a new magwell, half are saying get training! Well, I say you need to follow SP10s advice and practice those reloads and get more training. You can do this on your couch at home in front of the TV. It doesn't cost anything and it is good practice. You need to do it 2-3000 times before you can do it perfectly every time without looking. Plus, by relying on your magwell to do the reload for you, you are only cheating yourself. Say you need to use a different weapon someday to save your life and it doesn't have a magwell upgrade... You get the idea. |
That is totally dependent on the distance and situation at hand. I have done some contact distance training with guys like Southnarc where you shoot from retention, and use the training in force on force situations with SIMS guns. No, I'm not advocating NOT using your sights where relevent. However, in force on force training engagements with multiple assailants, I can tell you from experience from one drill where I didn't consciously use the sights on my SIMS pistol and still got good hits at ~3-4 yards from an attacking assailant while holding off a second attacker with my support hand. I posted a review on this training experience some months ago if you are interested. I will say I need MORE force on force training, the more the merrier! I CAN tell you I have used my sights to kill a hell of a lot of deer over the years, but not a single deer has tried to shoot back at me, so far. You cannot compare calmly shooting at a paper plate on a range with real aggressors. While I have used a handgun to defuse a potentially violent encounter some years back, I cannot, thankfully, speak from real experience, as some on this board no doubt can, so take my replies for what they are worth 
|
|
Good response. 3-4 yards, even out to 7-10 yards point shooting is possible with a high degree of success. I guess we will just have to respectfully disagree on whether watching your loads/reloads is a viable thing to do or not. As long as you get the BG before he gets you is the real point. Take care. P.S. My background is more on the competition side (i.e. IPSC, IDPA, 3-Gun) and I relate the stress from the timer and the high speed skills necessary to compete at a high level. I have never, and hope to keep it that way, ever had to use my handgun and/or training to defend myself. |
|
I'm not saying NEVER look at your magwell. Hell, I do sometimes. But don't be fixated on watching it while performing the reload. One interesting event in the SouthNarc class which came up was performing reloads from grappling distance. A lot of guys (me included) were used to having their slide lock back, thinking "oh shit, my gun is empty!" planting your feet, and performing the reload. That doesn't work so great when Bubba(s) is trying to knock you on your ass. Instead, a strike with your support hand followed by strikng your adversary in the face with your gun (1911s make great striking instruments!), step back and away as needed, reload, and reengage. You really need to incorporate movement in gun manipulations and fighting. The "get off the X" concept. The world is a dynamic place. The training I try to do is a blend of open hand skills with weapons, giving you the time and distance needed to operate your gun/knife, etc. This is good stuff and I'm admittedly still a babe in the woods. Another drill from the class was a grounded gun retention drill. You take turns on your back with your adversary leaning over on top of you, on his feet. You each have a loaded SIMS gun, and you each have your support hand gripping your adversary's gun. The goal is to shoot your adversary without getting shot. I was able to "kill" my first adversary from each position, and feeling confident (dumbass that I am) requested to do the drill again with Chris Fry, a guy with a lot of martial arts and ground fighting experience (and instructor for our local training events). Chris is also ~6'4" and 270lbs of muscle. In the first iteration, he was grounded first, me on top. We struggled for control, and each managed to thoroughly jam our SIMS gun when trying to fire (they are notorious for this due to the SIMS ammo design). My solution, let go, get off him, and UNass from the situation while clearing my jam. Chris also immediately jumped to his feet and ran in the opposite direction to clear his gun. To say the class had a good laugh was an understatement. Sadly, Chris quickly "killed" me when he started out on top  If you guys haven't noticed, I highly recommend training with SouthNarc! hey Marksman, sorry for the thread hijack 
|
Its ok, thread hijacks that go in a good and useful direction are always good to go! |
+1 This is how I was taught and has worked well since 1985 for me. I have been told that it takes 2000 repetitions to create a habit. That said practice does not make perfect. PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT. I use dummy rounds and stand in my spare room and practice TACTICAL & SPEED reloads. I attempt to make each load as smooth & perfect as I can. Speed comes with SMOOTH presentation and perfect technique. Be smooth, SMOOTH is fast. Hold the weapon (Handgun) in your strong hand approximately 12" from your chest and somewhere between the nipple line and chin. (not at full arm extension ) Index the spare magazine with support hand. With the base pad in the palm of your hand and the magazine snugly against your thumb and your third finger on the opposite side of the magazine. Run the support index finger up the outside edge of the magazine and touch the tip of the bullet with the tip of your index finger (gives excelent control of mag). HOLD this position. Now place the flat back of the magazine against the flat back of the magazine well, approximaetly 1" down from the top of the magazine at an approximat 30 degree angle. Once the flats of the magazine and magwell are touching, then rotate the magazine so that it is straight with the magazine "tube" and insert briskly, seating the mag in one smooth motion. I hope this explaines how is should be done. This is my way, how I was taught and my opiniion only. YMMV. Until that day, D. |