[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Answer from Novak's (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/18/2006 3:09:01 PM EDT
|
Does anyone know anything about the Answer from Novak's? I read the article in G&A and I think it is a pretty cool idea. I worry about liability but IF I used it, it would be for a fun/woods gun and not for carry. Anybody have additional info? Novak's Answer |
Why not pin the grip safety like a lot of USPSA guys do? I really haven't ever run into the problem of the gun not shooting because of insufficient travel in the grip safety. |
| There was a thread here earlier in the year about it (The Answer). I dont think there are too many of those floating around, but I would certainly like to try one of them. I'm one of those people that have numerous problems using a stock grip safety. There is a less of a problem with a grip safety that features some kind of memory bump, but I wouldnt mind doing away with the entire thing. |
|
If you do not trust the pin job some do. You could always remove the foot on the grip saftey. You would basically have "the answer", but with a non functional rotating grip saftey. Me I like the added bouns the grip saftey provides so I leave mine active, even on my USPSA guns. Doing this has cost me 1 round in 4 years of shooting no to fire due to a bad grab off a table. |
Grip safeties on 1911s add little to no value to the gun (with the exception of those new models with the rediscovered "Schwartz" firing pin set up, but only because they work the FP safety). I challenge anyone to provide a non-ridiculous scenario where the grip safety helps, and would propose that a good holster makes the grip safety an obsolete liability. In what situation are you going to pull the trigger, without holding the grip, and with the thumb safety off?  The "Answer" is the answer. Only a scum lawyer could not love it. I'd love to get the "Answer" on my 1911s. I don't know, but I suspect that it's something that Novak's made just once and is not an item they really sell "off-the-shelf".  Talking about increased liability due to the number and type of safeties on a gun seems absurd to me. If you shoot someone, you'll be liable, and some scum lawyer may come at you with everything he's got. I just don't see how one less, arguably useless safety is going to matter. I'm certainly not going to worry about that. I do make sure that I have a good holster and a positive thumb safety, and practice proper finger discipline. |
That's what I figured. Too bad, otherwise I'd get one. I wonder if their installed price is significantly greater than an equivalent high qual grip safety. |
I think that is the idea of the grip safety, that it will block the trigger bar and only allow the gun to fire if it is being held properly. Could the grip saftey be replaced with the "Answer"? Sure. Is the grip safety an "Obsolete Liability"? No. As with most things in life, ANYTHING can happen. |
The grip safety is obsolete. All the Glocks (which don't even have the thumb safety that the 1911 has) sold to LOE angencies prove this. Decent holsters and a bit of gun handling training easily replace the need for a grip safety. |
An opinion, stated as universal fact.
Anybody got the pic of the leg shot from that Glock/Holster interaction accident?? Anyone? |
Numerous problems? Please elaborate. Other than "overthinking" it, I can't imagine any issue with a functioning grip safety that would invoke such polarizing hatred of it. Grip the pistol, disengage the thumb safety and fire. What am I doing wrong that it's so easy? |
Thumb safety prevented. A non-existant problem on a decent 1911.
Why not ask for a magazine safety too? Why buy a series 70? Lack of a FP safety is arguably a much higher risk than lack of a grip safety. A proper thumb safety and holster make grip safeties completely unnecessary. Most guns do not have them and they are not anymore "dangerous". Maybe millions of people have been using most handguns for over a hundred years without a significant rate of accidents due to lack of a grip safety. It's this kind of ridiculous thinking that almost got hot coffee taken off the drive-up menu and takes away a little more of our freedoms every day. I suspect that the grip safety (not JMB's idea) was added for cavalry men who though they might by groping to pull the pistol from an oversized bag type holster while bouncing up and down on a horse and that (while groping for the pistol in the loose bag) they might accidentally disengage the thumb safety and grab the trigger. Modern holsters make this an incredible scenario. |
|
Umm if all you are gonna do is bitch about the 1911 why are you here?? There is no one platform for everyone... I have heard of lots of ND's with the Glock than a 1911.... Carry what you like and let others do the same. Those are your THOUGHTS and thats all they are it is not fact as if that was fact a 1911 would no longer be made or carried. |
 ....you were referring to Glock's not needing them. "All the Glocks...prove this." Or did I misunderstand your statement?A grip safety MIGHT have countered the action on the trigger inside the holster. Maybe, maybe not. I don't think the Glock proves anything in regards to the 1911. FWIW. |
You misunderstood. We're talking about 1911s here and "The Answer". My point about the Glock was that they are probably the most common autoloading handgun and they do not have a grip safety, proving that many many people including municipalities, LOE agencies and other organizations who have studied safey issues related to carrying them are confident that grip safeties are not required. Even John Browning didn't see a grip safety as being needed on the 1911 nor did he put one on his subsequent design the Hi-Power. I personally have 1911s and not striker fired guns because (for one reason) I see the value in a thumb safety e.g. to safer carry a lighter trigger. The example you gave about the Gock AD to me is an example of the need for a thumb safety, not a grip safety. I do have trouble actuating a grip safety on a 1911 even if it's a "speed bumped" version depending on who's it is. It happens to me frequent enough when competing in USPSA or practice usually due to some slight shifting of the grip when changing mags. I have long thin fingers and this allows the palm of my hand to move away from the bottom of the grip slightly. It doesn't happen much with my S&A grip safety equipped Yo-Bo SA, or my Colt Yo-Bo, but did happen with my Kimber and my buddy's STI Trojan, probably because the bumps are lower on those. The failure to engage the grip safety represents a liablity to me. That combined with the unlikelyhood of the grip safety ever serving a real purpose makes me like "The Answer". BTW I don't think the grip safety would have prevented that particular Glock AD since it's most likely the guy had a hold of the grip and pulled the gun out of his holster. Most people just think a grip safety is needed because (like dumb sheep) "it's always been there", without even thinking about what kind of scenario you'd have to have to call it into play. |
Yeah, I know. Illustrating that a Glock "proves" anything in regards to a 1911 is a bit of a stretch. However, there it is.
Ok, fair enough. I have no problems actuating the grip safety in any scenario. Therefore I do not search out the "answer" for which there in no question -- in my side of the playground.
I just don't care enough to search out solutions for a non-existent problem. If your 1911's grip safeties don't work for you, and you need the "answer" -- for whatever reason -- get it. There are those of us who own and shoot 1911's in varying configurations and have no need for "The Answer" -- at all. That doesn't make the grip safety obsolete. It doesn't make it anything. It's a part of a 1911. It works. Grip it, thumb safety off, shoot it. The grip safety does something everytime it is used. Obviously you could delete it and still get the same result, but mine work, as installed. Therefore it's a non-issue in my world. Almost not even worth continuing the discussion over it. If you need it, like it, or just want to be different -- get it. Novak's does great work. Just don't try to universally lend your opinion to everyone. |
SHIVAN, SHIVAN, SHIVAN   I will lend my opinion as I see fit, thank you.  Is this not the internet? Thank you for your "input " though. Novak's "The Answer" is a great idea. And I applaud Novak's for having the balls to put it out, despite the scum lawyers and those who cave into them. "The Answer" does away with a redundant, spring loaded, moving part that was not in Browning's original design but rather was a true "solution loooking for a problem", and that serves no purpose beyond what can be better done by a good holster. There are many (like myself) who have trouble with, or now pin or deactivate their grip safety because of failure to fire problems, that "The Answer" will help, including those who would like to use an arched MSH but can't due to grip safety activation problems. This is our topic here. I'm looking forward to more positive feedback, so let's get back to that.
|
Oddly, I have yet to run across anyone, IRL, who runs a 1911 that has an issue. I don't doubt there are folks out there who have one, as I've seen the pics of "Task Force" guys running inner-tubed grip safeties. However, the 1911 has had a grip safety since at least 1911. Original design or not, it works.
Actually, the internet thing cuts both ways. The Answer is an answer to a question not asked by most. BTW, if the grip safety is obsolete, why is it present on the XD's?
|
If you dont have any problems with a stock grip safety, more power to you. When I was running a 1911 with the stock set up, I would constantly have the safety engage. When I replaced the factory safety with an Ed Brown safety (with memory bump) my problem with the grip safety went away. I do like the idea of totally removing the grip safety from the equation though. One less thing to deal with. Of course, I could always start taping down my grip safety like Scott Reitz and a few others I have seen. 
|
I could not agree more. The grip safety has become a problem for me after thirty five years of shooting 1911's. I was considering pinning all my 1911's but I like the looks of "The Answer". |
the thumb saftey was not in JMB org design.  the grips saftey was always there. 
|
 Irrelevent since the "The Answer" is not a pin job. If you shoot someone yoyu could have a headache in court, or not regardless of modification with "The Answer". If your statement were really true with regard to "Ther Answer" then you should make it your personal crusade to tell people not to shoot Glocks, SIGs, H&K, etc. because they have no grip safety. Again, let's get back to "The Answer". |
|
You are modifying and existing gun when you use the answer or pin a grip safety You are altering the existing design. You cant compare a Glock Sig etc as they are not designed with a grip safety from the start. Im not saying I would not use the Answer BUT you need to know what issues you could run into. Think its bs? Ask your attorney. Will you end up winning the case, most likely but after quite an expense. I have trained in with top level instructors and this is something they tell you, this is something any atty. that happens to be in the class will confirm to the class and as I said any Atty who deals with carry issues will tell you. If you go talk to a atty who handles gun cases they will tell you when you modify a gun (Glock for example) only to use OEM parts... All comes down to the DA and how bored he is.... You are a upstanding citizen in Detroit and shoot a crack dealer thats got a knife and is near you and odds are no issues... Let it happen in Bloomfield Hills and the bored Oakland County DA will most likely persue a case. Lets just hope none of us ever even have to use or guns to defend ourself in the first place. Lets be thankful for our rights to own & carry firearms. And FYI Novaks already has a Commander they are installing the Answer on for me. If you want one you have to have them put it in and they cant put it on anything other than a Govt or Commander. Monkey... You need to take a valium and have a glass of wine... |
Excellent. You obviously see of how little value the grip safety is, unless mabey one purse carries and may end up groping for a cocked and locked 1911. I'd like "The Answer" on a carry commander myself. So how much for "The "Answer", installed by Novak's? Is it about the same price as a good grip safety (part + instalation) or is it significantly more?
No thanks, I don't do drugs. It's just that I hate obnoxious trolls. Particularly when it's a subject that could shed some real light. I'm funnny that way. IMO, The legal argument against "The Answer" is weak. Several people have made the case that grip safeties do not always deactivate for them. That alone is a significant safety realated case FOR "The ANswer". And no one has brought up a single safety related case as to why you would not want it. Again, I could see if you were going to carry in loose bag (e.g.purse) how you'd want a grip safety, but that's not a carry I'd normally do, and is a potentially unsafe situation for many guns, and (if one had to do it) where I'd probably recommend something like a 12 lb DA. |
Differing opinions are not trolling. You have problems operating a pistol, as designed, and you seek an alternative to the design. You think the part offered by Novak's is great. I, and others, do not believe as you do. I think I have offered counter arguments that are germane to this discussion. If you can't handle a discussion, with two or more differing opinions, then get off the internet. |
|
I shot a 1911 for the first time today, and noticed the grip safety, among other things that were akward at first but I see a purpose. For instance, the slot trigger also was akward to me, You hardly see any slot triggers on any "Modern Fighting Guns" either. I've just been used to Shotguns, Rifles and other Hand Guns with I guess a regular trigger, not the technical term I'm sure. But there is certainly a value in the Grip Safety, if I carried I'd want it, (Which I will one day.) I don't really see the legal issues of a pinned grip safety, really don't, it might be a problem for police officers, I doubt it since Glocks don't have any safety, really let's just state it for what it is, they don't have a safety at all, it has no manual safety, everything else is just fail safe devices. But what would be added to a legal arguement when you were in a murder trial by saying "He even did away with the grip safety!" Not, he shot the suspect however so many times, in whatever incident, It'd be more about the act than the gun. Unless you accident discharged and happened to be on a jungle gym with a half dozen children because of no grip safety, but either is not really viable. Personal preference is what it comes down, two guys arguing, realize that's what it is, I wouldn't take it personnally, and I know how this sounds but, but who cares what the original design was, what works and what doesn't, that's what it should be, as much as JMB was a fantastic arms designer, some of you guys are just taking it too far, by the way it appears that the thumb safety was added, which makes alot more sense to keep the hammer from dropping on a cavalry unit, but the grip safety isn't pointless, just preference. I like the idea of two safeties, because a thumb safety is probably easy to disengage while concealed carrying, think about it, a handgun pressed against your bare body, while you do whatever you do all day long, it'd be pretty easy for that to click off, or if you have an ambi-safety even easier, grip safety's your only fail safe then, and at that point, there is just about no situation where you could squeeze the trigger and the grip safety both at the same time without somebody doing it intentionally. |
| I don't need The Answer but if you have trouble with the grip safety then go for it. I don't see the need for a grip safety but I'm not going to bother getting rid of it. Too many 1911 lovers seem to think that any change to the original design is going to be mandated and someone is going to force them to exchange theirs for the new design. It might not be The Answer to any question you have but if it helps someone else why would you have a problem with that? |
Maybe the fact that the 1911 has been used for 96 years with a grip safety has shown that its existence is not a problem. The answer is a great idea, like so many other 1911 innovations. This doesn't make the grip safety "obsolete". You are definitley entitled to your opinion. However, when you state an opinion as a fact, somebody disagrees with your opinion, and states that disagreement, they are not a "troll". I believe your arguments are weak and are completely based upon your opinion and not many facts. However, there is no rule here that says you can't continue to make ignorant statements in this forum. I also disagree with the idea that if you modify your gun, it would open you up for a criminal charge. Especially if it is done by a gunsmith at Novak. If your gun is functioning properly and has no modifications that make it unsafe, your actions would dictate what charges would be brought against you, not your weapon. |
You don't have to read this, Hell, you don't even have to respond, but YOU did. That makes your comment the most pathetic thing here. |
|
I've been considering getting "The Answer" I don't recall having a problem with the grip safety, however I don't see a need for it either. To me The Answer is a way to customize my pistol and at the same time potentially eliminate a future grip safety malfunction that may occur on my part or on that of the weapon platform, fewer moving pieces.. How much is Novak charging for this addition? I wonder if it has a patent to the point that no one else could make a version.. John P.. |
|
They have all rights for it. They spent LOTS of time and money developing it and I do not think it is a big money maker or something they do very often. I get the impression more people call out of curiosity than anything. As for cost, you must call them direct and talk to a smith. Usually they dont take jobs just to install the ANSWER as they are so busy with other work. They have a pistol of mine which is having a few things done to it and I was able to add the ANSWER. Costs vary and thats why you must speak to a gunsmith (the sales girl cant even give the price, she sends you to a smith). This was created as a customer of theirs loved shooting with his daughter but she had very small hands. Since dad and her both loved 1911s he talked to Novak (I am willing to bet that guy has spent a LOT of money with them in the past to get them to even consider something like this)... This is not something they are really trying to push, just something they created for a special customer and since they put all the R&D into it figured might as well have it up as an option. When I first spoke to them about this they even said this is meant for range and comp guns not carry guns due to the potential liability one assumes when altering the design of a firearm. I was told I would have to sign some form that states I am aware of this before they ship my pistol. So... If this is something that interests you... CALL THEM you will get better answers from them (as its their product) than any of us here. Good luck! |
Go away. |
|
I like the idea, but if the "liability" is still yours, then you could simply pin the grip safety like many have been doing for years. Same effect if done properly. On the plus side, I'd bet "The Answer" is more "rigid" than a pinned grip safety, unless it's done very well. And, I don't know many smiths that will pin a grip safety...or admit to it anyway. I'd take a guess that it's over $300 by the time your done. Seperate steel parts, beavertail, housing, would be in the $85 range. Redesigned part like that I'd guess double and double that to fit, reblue, etc. Just guessing, not fact.  I also agree the grip safety serves no useful purpose, except on Kimbers and S&Ws. |
|
I seem to remember the 'ANSWER' being the product of Novak's responce to a client's request. Wayne got going and did nicely. I could not have made that happen. I think he did another great job. He is quite famous for 1911 things Happening. I do not need to defend him here, I'm sure. As for the grip safety thing, Its mechanical and crude. Period. It is another example of things not always fit just right when product ships. If you have a beef with yours ' working', Have someone like Novak's adjust it for you. Be amazed. Or, do it yourself...... |
|
You are just as liable if you tape or pin your grip safety. If you dont like the grip safety it is real simple... Dont buy a 1911 there are PLENTY of other guns out there... If you thinnk JMB's design was so bad then go design something better yourself. I am done with this thread and some of the people who think they know all the answers... Bye everyone. Too bad some trolls took over this thread. |
Exactly. It's nice to see that someone else has really thought this through too. Not many understand how little the grip safety does. It was the Ballester-Molina that first made me realize that it's just not necessary. Again, I could only see it's use if you were planning to grab the gun from a bag or box or drawer AND it had a trigger on the light side, and even then you'd have to wipe off the thumb safety. The grips safety is just not necessary. |
Understand precisely what it does. HOWEVER, it's just not an issue for everyone. There isn't a whole lot of compelling evidence to modify an "as issued" major design element. Unless of course you are one of a few people who have an issue with the grip safety -- as you indicated. The forward assist on an AR-15 is a mostly pointless device, but all of my AR-15's and M-16 uppers have them. I've never used it. Ever. Not once. I specifically make sure it's there though, as it works and does what it was designed to do. Kinda like a properly implemented and tuned grip safety. It does exactly what it was designed to do -- PASSIVELY. Due to some anatomical anomoly you can't use it. Ok, fine. "The Answer" is good for YOU. Buy it. Enjoy it. Don't tell ME that all 1911's can do without it. I happen to like the feel and look of it. It does it's job. It's part of the adopted design. It's "classic" 1911. Which is good enough for me. So you don't say it again, like a retard with a stuttering problem, I know precisely what the grip safety does and I STILL don't care about "The Answer". You do, that's great! Go buy one. |
|
Isn't the 1911 grip safety in a non-Schwartz gun designed do the same job as the Glock "trigger" safety? IE prevent the trigger from being retracted unless the user intends it to be? If you take your finger off the Glock trigger, the trigger cannot be retracted by inertia. If you take your finger off the 1911 grip safety, the trigger cannot be retracted by inertia. I would much sooner drop a Glock without a trigger safety than a 1911 without the grip safety (assuming the manual safety is off). Or is the 1911 trigger so lightweight that it cannot be retracted by the type of inertia caused by a drop? I wonder what is more likely -- that one will fail to activate the grip safety in a life or death situation and thereby lose his life or limb, or that one will drop his gun with the manual safety off and endanger life or limb? I think there will be a lot more opportunities to drop a gun. Like every time you pick it up? |
It won't make it feel the same, but a file applied to the engagement arm of the grip safety will fix any issues of not engaging the grip safety completely. I also have to say that if you shoot, and it's justified, charges won't be pressed if your gun has been modified. However, if the shoot is questionable, and your charged, it will just be one more thing they use to make you look guilty. Me? I do everything I can to make a gun more shootable and I also do whatever I can to make sure if I ever shoot there will be no question as to whether or not I was justified. |
You tell someone not to universally lend their opinion to someone by universally lending your opinion to someone? Oh, the irony. Anyway... I like the answer. The grip safety is stupid. It serves no purpose unless you are fighting a war in the 1800's. End of story. If you could buy one on the cheap, I'd have one already. |