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Posted: 2/16/2006 10:44:06 AM EDT
Anybody here shoot USPSA? I just shot my first match under the new provisional division for Single Stack. Unfortunately, there were only three of us who did this and one shot minor power class.

Here are some observations:

1. Running 8 round magazines against everybody else running 10 rounders is a real handicap. Course designs are weighted heavily toward 10 round mags. On three of the four stages last night, I had to do two mag changes where everybody else did one (or none for some divisions).

2. Minor power class is allowed to run 10 round mags in this division and I don't understand why. Without the 8 round limit, there is no reason not to shoot in Limited-10.

3. This division will not work if they can't get more people shooting it. This morning, I'm looking over the scores and I realize I can't compare my scores to the L10 guys because they did 3 fewer mag changes than I did. I can't even compare to the SS-minor guy for the same reason. That leaves me with only one shooter to judge how well or poorly I shot the match.

There were 47 shooters last night. Out of 47, only 2 of us shot with 8 round mags. That's just not fun. I can't even get the ego boost of seeing my name at the top of the division because of the minor power class shooter. I really don't mind that if I can use the numbers to see where I need improvement, but with only one other shooter in the group, I can't make an educated judgement on that.

If any of you 1911 shooters live in Northern VA, please come down to Shooter's Paradise on the 3rd Wednesday of the month and shoot SS-major. You have to sign up two weeks ahead of time. Visit www.shootersparadise.com/forums for more details. If any of you want to shoot with me, I usually shoot in the 5:00 squad, but if y'all want to meet up, let me know what time is good for you.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 11:33:33 AM EDT
I just got involved in USPSA and will shoot my 3rd match this weekend. I will be running my SW1911 in the L10 division, because I want to get classified. The ss division, being provisional, dosen't allow you to earn a ranking, the classification you earn in L10 will be the class you shoot in ss.
The single stack division has the potential to bring a lot of new people into the sport, I got into it so I could shoot my 1911, IDPA is not as much as an option simply because of the distance to the nearest club,
Hopefully once the season gets under way, and new shooters have acquired their initial classifications, they will shoot in the ss class. I know that is my plan
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 12:30:14 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

1. Running 8 round magazines against everybody else running 10 rounders is a real handicap. Course designs are weighted heavily toward 10 round mags. On three of the four stages last night, I had to do two mag changes where everybody else did one (or none for some divisions).

2. Minor power class is allowed to run 10 round mags in this division and I don't understand why. Without the 8 round limit, there is no reason not to shoot in Limited-10.

3. This division will not work if they can't get more people shooting it. This morning, I'm looking over the scores and I realize I can't compare my scores to the L10 guys because they did 3 fewer mag changes than I did. I can't even compare to the SS-minor guy for the same reason. That leaves me with only one shooter to judge how well or poorly I shot the match.

There were 47 shooters last night. Out of 47, only 2 of us shot with 8 round mags. That's just not fun. I can't even get the ego boost of seeing my name at the top of the division because of the minor power class shooter. I really don't mind that if I can use the numbers to see where I need improvement, but with only one other shooter in the group, I can't make an educated judgement on that.




How do you think the few diehards shooting revolvers feel?

Actually, IIRC, courses are supposed to be designed so that no more than nine scoriong hits are fired from any one position. But these rules only apply to the bigger mathces.

How can you not compare the guys shooting minor to you? The guys shooting minor have a slight edge over you in capacity but they suffer from fewer points if the rounds don't go into the "A" zone. And you're more than welcome to run your 1911 in Limited-10 with ten round extended magazines. The real difference is in the scoring, as a smokin' fast run with a bunch of "C" hits will always be won by the guy shooting major power factor. Scoring for major is 5,4 and 2. Minor is scored 5, 3 and 1.

As for the division not working unless more shooters take an interest, we just had our Western States Sinlge Stack here in AZ. The turnout was twice what they had last year. And it's my understanding that the Single Stack Nat's in Ill. is about full.

There are some rules issues that will hopefully be resolved, given time. Single Stack is a fun division to shoot in (returning to the roots of the game!) and will hopefully be here to stay.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 12:53:15 PM EDT
I forgot that there is a scoring difference with minor. That still doesn't really fly though. The scoring difference should be making up for the fact that minor is easier to shoot, not that is has a higher capacity. Otherwise, L10 and Production minor should be able to load 12 while major gets 10. With 20 round stages like we were shooting last night, the minor shooter had a huge advantage. He had to three fewer mag changes than I did.

I think this is something that really needs looked at with this division. Giving the minor shooters a 25% capacity advantage over major is a bit much.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 1:16:13 PM EDT
Well Cliffy, when USPSA started a long time ago....most shooters shot the .45 with 7 rd mags then along came the mag conversions upping the capacity to 8rds. Capacity does not make up for shooting minor (unless you can shoot all "A's" all the time). If it did, you would see more minor calibers in Limited and L10 but that is not the case.

You cannot use a fat gun to shoot in the SS division, so fat guns are used in Limited/Open & L10 (production too).

The SS division is provisional and from the sounds of things, there is a lot of interest in shooting SS. Your classification for SS will be the highest you are classified in any division and that's what might stop a few guys from shooting SS. You will be competing against those in your division and if you want an ego boost, practice a lot more to get better than the SS minor guy. Classifiers help some to see where you stand in the nation, just gotta compare your score to L10 guys for now tho.

This is a provisional division for now and like all things new there will be some issues that come up here and there. Don't get frustrated too soon, just shoot your own game instead of competing with everyone.

practice, reload, practice, reload, practice your reload.

Link Posted: 2/16/2006 1:30:49 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
I think this is something that really needs looked at with this division. Giving the minor shooters a 25% capacity advantage over major is a bit much.



I think the capacity limits are based on the long-accepted fact that modern .38 Super magazines hold ten rounds and modern .45 ACP mags hold eight rounds. If the rules are changed to allow .40 and 10mm magazines to hold nine rounds, we'll no doubt see a resurrection of the 10mm. Maybe that's not a bad thing.

I understand about your feelings with minor being an advantage but it really isn't. I believe it was Matt Burkett who tried to run with a high capacity gun in Limited a few years ago. He found that even though he had a higher magazine capacity, he couldn't shoot fast enough to beat guys with the easier scoring of major. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere between speed and accuracy and minor but if Matt couldn't find it, it probably can't be found.

All divisions in USPSA are scored major/minor with the exception of Production, which is all minor. If minor were an advantage, I think we'd see more shooters using it.

I have been competing in L-10 minor and single stack minor for the last few months. Guys I shoot with will run about the same times as me but always beat me when the scores are posted due to the higher hit factor.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 1:55:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Melvin_Johnson:

I understand about your feelings with minor being an advantage but it really isn't. I believe it was Matt Burkett who tried to run with a high capacity gun in Limited a few years ago. He found that even though he had a higher magazine capacity, he couldn't shoot fast enough to beat guys with the easier scoring of major. There's got to be a happy medium somewhere between speed and accuracy and minor but if Matt couldn't find it, it probably can't be found.



That's not the same thing. You're talking about the difference between 20 and 22 rounds. That's only a 10% increase and most stages don't have you shooting more than 20 rounds. The difference in SS is a 25% increase and stages frequently get to the point where this would make a difference. At least that's what I've seen so far.



All divisions in USPSA are scored major/minor with the exception of Production, which is all minor. If minor were an advantage, I think we'd see more shooters using it.

I have been competing in L-10 minor and single stack minor for the last few months. Guys I shoot with will run about the same times as me but always beat me when the scores are posted due to the higher hit factor.



Maybe its a course design issue. I just fail to see how SS major can be competitive with three more mag changes in a 4 stage match. Even with a lower hit factor, thats a lot of time to make up.

I'll ask again because the last time I asked, I was working from an incorrect pretext: Minor calibers don't get a capacity advantage in L10 so why should they get one in SS? Minor already has an advantage of having a lower power factor so they should have an easier time keeping A zone hits and that's why they get penalized more for hits outside that zone. Why give them the additional advantage of fewer mag changes?

If the issue is mag capacity in a .38 Super, its a simple matter to download. L10 and Production shooters do this all the time to make an even playing field.

Sorry if this sounds grumpy. I have no intention of stopping shooting USPSA. I would really like to see the SS division succeed. I just think this is a quirk that can be exploited to defete the intent of this new division.
Link Posted: 2/16/2006 2:37:45 PM EDT
I agree with Cliffy on this. If it is a single stack division mag capacity should be the same across power factors. This applies to L10 and production, why make it different for a new division?

I've been out of the game for awhile, but I think the idea of the separate divisions is to make it as fair as possible for each shooter in that division where equipment is concerned. Different mag capacity negates that.

It doesn't make much difference to me, I still plan on trying SS once I get the new 1911 put back together. I'll see you at Shooter's before too long Cliffy.



Link Posted: 2/16/2006 6:41:45 PM EDT
Guys,

I don't see any reason to limit mags to eight rounds regardless of power factor. Production is limited to 10 rounds of MINOR regardless of caliber so everybody shoots a 9mm. Yes, there are a few guys shooting .40's that are downloaded to minor but those guys are pretty uncommon. And in L-10, where everybody is limited to 10 rounds, everybody shoots a .40 or 45 at major power factor. If you want to limit magazine capacity in SS, why not just call it Limited-8 and let guys compete with SiG P-220's, S&W 645's, etc.? There needs to be something to make single stack different or unique if it's going to make it.

Link Posted: 2/17/2006 2:29:13 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 2:54:17 AM EDT by gotm4]
I think the whole SS division is limited to 8 round mags for .45 because that's what a typical modern 1911 carry gun uses. 9mm/.38Super usually has more than eight thus the reason to give them the 10 rounds. I do agree with Cliffy that it's too much of a disadvantage for the guy shooting a .45 especially if you've ever shot a 9mm 1911 (VERY little recoil).

So I think of Single Stack as a sort of Production division for the classic 1911 fans.

The rules for SS are here for those that haven't read them. USPSA is now using your highest classification for your Single Stack classification. Currently there is no way to classify in SS without being classified something else first. So unless you're classified in another division the classifiers shot with SS don't count as this is still a provisional division unless they made changes that I haven't yet heard about.

Since I'm a B class shooter in Limited and Production, C class in Limited-10, USPSA made me a B class Single Stack by default.

I think the division will survive as there are many people who want to compete but don't want to shoot Production or the virtually dead Limited-10.

Will I shoot Single Stack ever....? Probably not as I'm having a ton of fun shooting Limited/Maj. It's a totally different game where I don't have to think about targets in sets of 5, it's less about the reload and more about the shooting. Right now I don't ever think I'll shoot Open as I prefer seeing sights and not a dot.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 2:40:48 AM EDT
Brian Enos Forum

Here's a good place to discuss your thoughts on magazine capacity.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 5:21:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/17/2006 5:22:45 AM EDT by kk7sm]
Hi, Cliffy,

Not to beat a drum either way, but I've shot both and personally, I tend to prefer IDPA. I know other people prefer USPSA, so it can go either way. I usually wind up in a bit of general ribbing with my preferred instructor at the place where I take training. He's USPSA all the way. (well, that and he tends to shoot a lot of steel challenge with some old revolver dinosaur, Jerry Miculek or something)

Some people who didn't want to shoot race guns switched from USPSA to IDPA because they wanted to shoot God's own 1911. I think USPSA started the SS division to entice some of them back. I think this is a good thing in general because it's going to give people more opportunities to shoot and hopefully increase the base of the shooting population.

The reason I personally tend to prefer IDPA is I believe it more accurately reflects the sort of tactical situations I'd encounter in real life situations. I don't really compete to compete, but more or less in order to practice and get my brain working. There are some really goofy rules in IDPA, especially involving magazine changes, but there are goofy rules in all of them. I think some of these are just IDPA trying to make itself different than USPSA!

Anyway, back to the subject, in IDPA, you can't use extended magazines. 8 rounders are fine in CDP (Custom Defensive Pistol or .45 1911 division). I only compete against others shooting the same division, so we're all running around with pretty basic 1911s and 8 rounders. We're all required to use legitimate carry gear, or in the case of LEO, duty gear, which I think is a good thing for me, since I tend to use it as practice and to make sure my carry rig is working for me.

On the other hand, I've seen some USPSA shooters who get really good and can compete against the 10 rounders when they have 8s. Those guys are much better shooters than me, though!

All told, I'd like to see the SS division of USPSA grow. Make suggestions on the rules and maybe some day, I'll see you out there!

Cheers,

kk7sm

Not­e: I have written this from the perspective of an IDPA shooter because that's what I know best. I fully recommend and endorse shooting everything you can and figuring out what you like best, be it USPSA, Cowboy, IDPA, Steel Challenge, bullseye, GSSF, etc.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 6:06:01 AM EDT
I appreciate that reply. I'm also an IDPA shooter and have been for a few years now. I have recently begun to shoot USPSA and the SS division seems like a good way to approach it. If that was their intent, its a good one. I've shot L10 for a bit and managed to classify as a C class shooter last month so this was my first time with the SS division. I've come to the conclusion that if I want to be competitive, I need to not shoot SS but resign myself to 10 round mags and shooting in L10. If I'm just shooting to have fun and develop my skills, I can shoot either division with a 2 round handicap and since Classifiers don't count with SS, I may as well handicap myself in L10.

The more I think about it, the more of a waste of time the SS division seems. I'm going to do some reading at the Enos forum before I totally give up, but I'm not liking this.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 10:06:27 AM EDT
Hey Cliffy,
I've been dying to try my hand at this. It would be great to have someone who could help me learn the ropes without hanging myself with them along the way. If you're willing to give a few pointers along the way, I'd love to come down and shoot with you. I've got a selection of 1911's to shoot with, 1 Kimber Custom II, to SA Champs and one SA GI. Which one would be best to shoot with?
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 10:22:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kcobean:
Hey Cliffy,
I've been dying to try my hand at this. It would be great to have someone who could help me learn the ropes without hanging myself with them along the way. If you're willing to give a few pointers along the way, I'd love to come down and shoot with you. I've got a selection of 1911's to shoot with, 1 Kimber Custom II, to SA Champs and one SA GI. Which one would be best to shoot with?



If you haven't shot this style of shooting before, its probably better to start with IDPA. I say that only because I find it less intimidating. The rules look more complex at first, but its really nothing difficult. Just remember to never drop your magazine unless your slide is locked back. USPSA is a lot faster and the level of expertise at Shooter's Paradise is pretty high.

The next IDPA shoot is not going to be rookie friendly though. Its a low light match, requiring the use of a handheld flashlight. For a first experience, there's better ways to get your feet wet.

I don't work on Wednesdays so I usually sign up for early squads. If you want to meet up, get yourself on the list at www.shootersparadise.com/forums. I shoot the 5:00 squads for both USPSA and IDPA. You can also come and watch a match as well if you want to find out what happens without having to shoot in front of strangers before you're ready.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 10:34:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:

Originally Posted By kcobean:
Hey Cliffy,
I've been dying to try my hand at this. It would be great to have someone who could help me learn the ropes without hanging myself with them along the way. If you're willing to give a few pointers along the way, I'd love to come down and shoot with you. I've got a selection of 1911's to shoot with, 1 Kimber Custom II, to SA Champs and one SA GI. Which one would be best to shoot with?



If you haven't shot this style of shooting before, its probably better to start with IDPA. I say that only because I find it less intimidating. The rules look more complex at first, but its really nothing difficult. Just remember to never drop your magazine unless your slide is locked back. USPSA is a lot faster and the level of expertise at Shooter's Paradise is pretty high.

The next IDPA shoot is not going to be rookie friendly though. Its a low light match, requiring the use of a handheld flashlight. For a first experience, there's better ways to get your feet wet.

I don't work on Wednesdays so I usually sign up for early squads. If you want to meet up, get yourself on the list at www.shootersparadise.com/forums. I shoot the 5:00 squads for both USPSA and IDPA. You can also come and watch a match as well if you want to find out what happens without having to shoot in front of strangers before you're ready.



Sounds like reasonable advice. Thanks.
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:30:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cliffy109:
The next IDPA shoot is not going to be rookie friendly though. Its a low light match, requiring the use of a handheld flashlight. For a first experience, there's better ways to get your feet wet.



Cliffy,

Probably a little off topic, but I shoot CDP with a 1911, so it's close!

When you shoot low-light, what flashlight technique do you use? I've been working on the flashlight to cheek method, which seems to work ok, but I'm curious what other people out there are doing.

Cheers,

kk7sm
Link Posted: 2/17/2006 12:38:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kk7sm:


Cliffy,

Probably a little off topic, but I shoot CDP with a 1911, so it's close!

When you shoot low-light, what flashlight technique do you use? I've been working on the flashlight to cheek method, which seems to work ok, but I'm curious what other people out there are doing.

Cheers,

kk7sm



We have a BIG regional tourney coming up in March that is shot in the dark so this is something I've been practicing. I really prefer the Harries technique. I experamented with the Surefire and the cheek method and neither offer as much support as I would like. I also experamented with my own method that has the gun about 12" from your face and your strong arm resting in the bend of your weak side elbow. That last one works well for slow fire, distance shooting but again, doesn't allow much in the way of recoil control.
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