Posted: 11/6/2005 12:18:34 PM EDT
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It's no my intention to give the Tupperware people ammunition, but my out of the box Springfield Mil-Spec 1911 is having some problems. I'm going to address them all with this one thread, but it's going to be long and painful. Problem 1: I took it to the range for the first time yesterday and if jammed three or four times out of about 300 rounds I fired. I have a feeling it's related to the extractor that I've heard is already really shitty on the Springfield 1911s, though, I'm not sure if it might be mag related. I have these magazines:  Left to right: Unmarked one with flat follower, most likely SA factory mag What I think is a "Metalform" mag with a flat follower A $6 mag from Sportsman's Guide with a rounded follower, marked ".45 AUTO"   As you can see, the round in the (right) Sportsman's Guide mag rides higher than the others.  Now, I don't have an empty shell, but here's an idea of what the jam looked like:  The highest round would have been the empty shell casing. The round underneath it would have been the round that should have fed into the chamber. The empty casing seems like it didn't eject, and the following round was rammed into by the casing, stopping it at the feed ramp. To clear the malfunction, I couldn't rack the slide to eject the spent casing. I had to eject the mag so the live round would fall out the magwell, and then I had to try to get the empty casing to feed into the chamber. After I fed it into the chamber, I racked the slide and it ejected the empty casing. Three of the four times it jammed were with the Metalform mag, the other one time was with the unmarked mag (I don't think it ever jammed with the cheap mag I got from SG). Oh, it did manage once to hit me in the face with empty brass.  Problem 2: The second problem I'm not 100% sure of. It seems too unrealistic, so it might be me. I know I've read about other recent Springfield 1911s coming out of the factory shooting a few inches low. These people sent the gun back and had the sights adjusted under warrenty. At the range, I didn't have any papers, the main targets were propane tanks and pumpkins, and there weren't enough cease-fires for shooting at paper anyway (one ever couple hours). When I first shot, I was aiming at stuff about 25-50 yards away, and missing. I kept hitting low. I'd aim a little high (maybe 6") and I'd hit the stuff. I thought, "Arg... I'm going to have to send it in." Well... then, I tried aiming at a propane tank about 100 yards away. I was able to hit it, aiming directly at it... at 100 yards! I was able to do this between 2-4 times per magazine on average, yet it still hit low at closer range. WTF? Is it me? I know this is far from scientific since I didn't even shoot paper once, but I did shoot a few hundred rounds, more than enough to get an idea of where I was hitting. |
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OK quick answer first. Get someone else to shoot your pistol before you send it in or anything else, as far as accuracy. You could be jerking the trigger and pulling your shot. Not hard to do,easy way to find out is to put in a dead round in a box and load the mag. You do not know which round is dead in the mag. Fire it and you might see where the problem is. [I've shot for well over 25 years and ocassionally STILL find my self working on flinch.] Dump the DAMN POS extractor SA puts in these. Don't bother to adjust it. piss on it, or otherwise ascribe value to these worthless pieces of MIM "metal" Buy a real steel extractor from Ed Brown [hardcore] cylinder and slide, or use a Colt one which is also good. Buy thru Brownells, ot the local shop. Put it in, set it and have fun. SAs extractors are pure JUNK in the milspec/ww2 series/GI champion and I can't say enough bad things about them to even come close to the truth. The big parts however are pretty damn good for the money. BTW this is exactly what mine kept on doing no matter what else I tried. I'll bet you will also see a deep ding just above the case base in the groove also. Is this a SS gun BTW? They plate the small bits and some are pretty shoddy as far as flashing. |
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Arg... I'm too cheap! I'll probably do it anyway, but people told me I should replace the slide release too because the SA one sucks, but they didn't tell me why it sucks, or how it will fail. The only reason I think it sucks is because I can't reach it with my thumb unless I put the gun in my hand sideways. The same goes for the magazine release. I have to turn the gun sideways in my hand to reach it. If I end up sending the thing back for the sights, and I just bitch about the extractor, would they replace it with something that doesn't suck? I'm not looking for one a "bling bling" 1911, just one that I can rely on. It just pisses me off that I can't reach any of the shit to change my magazine without repositioning my hand, which, I don't have small hands. |
I have a stock GI Champion that worked 100% right out of the box.  Go ahead and change the extractor. Get a couple good mags. (I use the springfield factory ones) Shoot some paper at , say , 25 feet. If it still shoots low with 230 gr ball , you might have to fix the front sight. |
They will either set the extractor or replace it with another crappy one. Spend the money on a GOOD one and be done with it. The slide release/stop replacement is because some snapped in two. [MIM] I have not seen this personally but I have seen pics. I really dont think that is a widespread as the crappy extractor. You can set it but it will not hold tension well. You must have some small hands, because the 1911 is a pretty decent choice as a pistol [full size] for those with small hands. [Do you have short fingers?] |
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Well, shit... maybe my hand is small. The problem is, I only have one more to compare it to. At 6' tall, I just never thought of my hands as being small. Oh... oh, no! You know what they say about guys with small hands!!!  I can't find my measuring tape. I think it's in my car and I'm too lazy to go get it. Well, I was thinking about the Wilson Bullet-Proof extractor. If I'm going to place an order from Brownells, I might as well get everything I'll need. What's the ideal replacement recoil spring weight for 230 grain ammo? 21lbs or something? For my mag release, I'll just drill a hole in the one I already have and thread a screw into it to make it bigger/taller. Yeah, I really am that cheap. |
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See, I'm not sure if it's the mag or not. I just assumed since the empty case was still pinned under the extractor that it was an extractor problem. The new round was mostly out of the magazine each time it jammed. When I ejected the magazine to clear the jam, the live round came out separately from the magazine. That's what made me think it's extractor related. I read about someone else getting nailed in the face with brass, which happened to me once on the last round of a magazine it flew right at me and nailed me in the face. Are the Metalform magazines supposed to be good? Between that one and the unmarked one, which is most likely to be a factory mag? The gun was new and unfired when I purchased it from a private seller. It came with two different magazines and sales coupons and stuff that expired in 2002 or something like that, I forgot the exact date. |
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I believe the one on the left wth the two hole is the factory not real good mag. Just like Wolf, Im sure there are guys here who like Metalform, USA and every other mag made. I know a lot of guys who swear on Wilsons. I have good luck with believe it or not, USGI low bidder mags. 
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Is that the correct grip I should be using with my firing hand? Someone posted that an extended slide release will poke your thumb, and said your thumb should be higher up, but for some reason, I just grab it like that because there's nowhere to rest my thumb other than my fingers below it. Then my left hand's thumb ends up crossing over my right thumb. Either way, I still have to reposition my hand to reach the slide release and mag release, which apparently isn't normal unless you have small hands? I can't figure out if I should get the extended slide stop/release thing or not. I plan on an extended thumb safety, but I'm not sure which ones are MIM and which aren't. The McCormick one is the cheapest, with the Wilson being twice the price. |
They have been known to break in half. Wilson's Bulletproof slide stop is a commonly recommended replacement. Your firing grip is fine, but you may want to buy bigger hands if you can get a good deal on some. 
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The last pair I found for sale were covered in warts. Well, I'm leaning towards an extended slide stop, but I don't know. Does anyone know if the McCormick parts are MIM or machined? That's the only cheap extended safety. The Wilson extended slide stop is probably the one I'll end up getting. As for the extractor, I'll probably end up with the Wilson Bulletproof one. It pisses me off that I need $100 worth of parts to make the damn thing feel right. Maybe I'll hold off on the safety. I guess I have to get some mags too though, which will probably put me closer to $150. Arg. |
Also skip the extended slide stop. You should be using your support hand to pull back on the slide to chamber a round, letting it go forward totally on its own. This is the same grip you would use to re-function your pistol, "tap, rack, bang!' A "thumb over thumb" grip is a very good one for shooting a pistol. An extended slide stop can interfere with this. |
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A few observations: 1. I've had great luck with Wilson bullet proof parts. The slide stop, extractor and even the thumb safety just dropped in with no modifications and have worked perfectly in several different guns. I do find the thumb safety to be a bit short and sharp for my tastes. I do like the Brown and C&S thumb safeties but both have needed a bit of fitting, but nothing horrible. 2. The replacement recoil spring is NOT a 21 pounder. The Marines were using a 22# spring and were breaking extractors frequently. They moved back to an 18.5 pound Wolff spring. 3. You will likely improve the feel in your hand by replacing the mainspring housing with a flat one. since your current one has the dreaded Springfield lock system, you'll need to get a new mainspring cap and pin, but those are cheap. 4. Your sights are pinned in and can't readily be changed. Make sure you really need to change things before you worry about that. |
Don't worry, I've tried to call an armistice, and there is a thread about a messed up Glock 19 right now that we don't appear to be able to diagnose away from the weapon itself. |
They can cause some weird problems. Most folks would advise you to stay with the factory profile part.
If it's cheap, it's usually MIM or cast. The McCormick thumb safety is a pretty good unit from my experiences. For Really Important Parts (slide stop, hammer, sear, firing pin retainer, etc) I would go with something better. If this is going to be just a range gun, you may be able to get by with the stock extractor. It may just need to be properly tensioned -- then again it may be totally worthless.
"Pay me now or pay me later." The Springfields are cheap for a reason -- partially because they use cheap parts and partially because they don't always spend as much time on them as they should. Basically it's a good frame, slide and barrel; the other parts may or may not be up to snuff but can usually be made to work. The thumb safety is a personal preference, it is one part you really don't need to worry much about from a durability standpoint. I can get by just fine with the stock thumb safety, and I dare say most right-handed people could as well. If you buy a new one there is about a 70% chance it will need some fitting before it works correctly. On recoil springs, you'll have best results between 16# and 18.5#. Don't go any higher. I use an 18.5 # in the majority of my 5" 1911s. For mags, the Wilson 8 rounders are good mags, so are the McCormick Power Mags. I have noticed one thing about mags: they can make a marginal 1911 have problems but might work fine in a properly running gun. I have never had a lot of problems with my mags, except some of the uber-cheap Chinese ones. I don't like the looks of your Sportsman's Guide mag, it looks like the lips are too far apart. I'll bet it won't be long before that one starts having problems keeping the rounds in the mag. I don't know if anyone else mentioned it but the Springfields seem to have a chronic problem with shooting low... not that I'm convinced that's your problem yet. |
| The first mag is a stock Springer, replace the spring with the Wolffs 11# spring that will clear up that mag. The first time I went to the range with my Mil-Spec,I had the same problem. When I switch out the spring problem went away. Your extractor is not a MIM part, probably needs a little tuning. |
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I'll chime in here. I'm no expert. But: the small slide stop is the way the gun was designed. It's not like it's weird that you can't reach it. I can't reach it either without changing my grip. But if you're loading, your other hand should be free to either perform this function, or like the other said, pull back on the slide and let it go. I like how it's small and not in the way. Your grip is not necessarily the best. If it works for you that's great but from my readings and a little bit of instruction I've gotten, a higher ride will give you a little more control. It's kind of like a race car is lower to the ground and it's not as tippy. Center of gravity. It's not exactly the same thing but the higher it is in your hand, the more snap you'll get when that slide comes back. Alot of guys put their right thumb and "ride" the safety. But beware, you'll be marked on your web.  You'll find out what I mean if you use this hold. I find it gives me more control. Also, your other hand on there will give you more control too.Take it for what it's worth. This is the internet and an open forum. Oh yeah, get some wilson mags. I've had good luck with the factory one though. I have milspec also that runs great. It did shoot low though. I just drifted my rear sight out and put a taller millet one in. There in brownells. If you want, I'll figure out which one it was I bought. But it did just the trick. |
Actually, yes the extractors ARE MIM. The biggest problem is that some will not hold tension as you set them and will relax. Also they are poorly made as far as the "cut" on the bottom side of them of them. [Angle] I don't know if the higher grades are MIM, but I do know Colt tried MIM a while back and ended up going back to tool steel as they had mucho problems. Examine a SA Milspecs closely, pretty easy to see they are MIM. Also 16 to 18.5 pound recoil spring. Buy wolffs, great springs at good prices. The SAs factory spring can be pretty weak and loses tension quickly. |
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I wouldn't worry too much about the sights being that low. Before sending the gun back in to SA, check the sights at practical pistol ranges from 3-15 yards and see where you are. The .45 ACP can drop quite a bit, and that could easily be the problem. These guns are not designed for long range plinking, but short range self defense. Use the gun at the ranges for which it was intended, and it should work fine for you. After you have worked with it at closer ranges, then start to work out to 25 yards or so, and as you gain experience with the gun, you should be able to hit targets more consistently. BTW - at the SO I work for, we only qualify to 25 yards, and that is only 10 rounds at that distance, out of 50 rounds in the qualification run. Good luck. |