[ARCHIVED THREAD] - USMC may go Colt (Page 1 of 6)
Posted: 7/17/2012 1:44:17 PM EDT
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http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/16/sources-report-marsoc-purchase-1000-colt-1911a1-rail-guns/ Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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LOL Lots of ignorance in the comments at that site. Good choice marines. Those comments are from a bunch of knuckleheads, pay no attention. I mean, one of the dudes name is "koolaiddrinker"... I guess the internet commandos know whats reliable from playing call of duty and reading the internet...drives me crazy. On a side note, Im very pleased marsoc picked one finally. I did not care which one they got because imo the SA MC Operator is just as capable of a weapon, but I did want the Colt... i look forward to seeing if they release why they picked the Colt over the SA, and then to seeing some pictures of them playin with the new toys 
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LOL Lots of ignorance in the comments at that site. Good choice marines. Those comments are from a bunch of knuckleheads, pay no attention. I mean, one of the dudes name is "koolaiddrinker"... I guess the internet commandos know whats reliable from playing call of duty and reading the internet...drives me crazy. On a side note, Im very pleased marsoc picked one finally. I did not care which one they got because imo the SA MC Operator is just as capable of a weapon, but I did want the Colt... i look forward to seeing if they release why they picked the Colt over the SA, and then to seeing some pictures of them playin with the new toys
My guess extractor tension was set correctly by Colt. |
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After seeing the results of the phase II, 12000 round per gun firing tests, with 197 instances of failure, 4 out of 10 guns completed destroyed and MORE SIGNIFICANTLY an original letter of non-acceptability. Â I would almost be willing to call shenanigans on the whole thing. Â
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After seeing the results of the phase II, 12000 round per gun firing tests, with 197 instances of failure, 4 out of 10 guns completed destroyed and MORE SIGNIFICANTLY an original letter of non-acceptability. Â I would almost be willing to call shenanigans on the whole thing. Â Bah! What do you know? 
What killed the guns? Frame or slide failures? Or was it something else? Just curious really. I would have loved to been a part of that testing. 
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It's telling that CAG dropped the 1911. If the unit with the highest budget per shooter in the world decided it was too much trouble, why on earth would it be good for the Marines to buy them?
Everyone would be better off if Congress changed the law to allow or require the issuance of modern bonded hollow points in 9mm and issued Glock 17s. ETA: I have more than $10,000 worth of 1911s in my safe. That's three of them. I love the gun but it should not be an issue weapon. |
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http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/slidecrack1.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/slidecrack2.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/slidecrack3.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/slidecrack4.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/lowercrack.jpg http://i841.photobucket.com/albums/zz337/R0N_photos/springplug.jpg Were the guns the standard stainless models or did Colt do a run of carbon for the test. The reason I am asking is that some of the pictures make the gun almost look like it has a coating type finish on it. Not that it matters, just curious again. |
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Those were the guns tested as the CQQ Pistol for Marines, the same guns manufacturer that although 40 percent were deadlined prior to the end of the test that are now deemed acceptable. ...so despite 40% of the guns being completely destroyed the Marines STILL gave the award to Colt? Was the other competitor in the trials Hi-Point or some shit? Why not call up Springfield Armory Custom Shop and have them build some FBI spec guns and use those? |
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Those were the guns tested as the CQQ Pistol for Marines, the same guns manufacturer that although 40 percent were deadlined prior to the end of the test that are now deemed acceptable. Were they fired until they failed or did they fail during a standardized test? |
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Well folks, this is exactly one third of the STORY.
Three were chosen for trials and one will exit whether a 1911 is chosen or not for Marines use. 1911s aren't exclusive to Colt, personally I'd like to know how Lippards faired in trials. Back to Colt and understanding why Colt might have got a 4000 pistol contract. All you need to do is look back at the last ten years. Most recently FN. |
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I seem to recall that Lippard never delivered the required samples for his product to reach this level of testing. IF...big if...this is actually a done deal with Colt I would imagine they have sweetened the pot by throwing in tons of frames and slides as spares as well as enough guns to issue a minimum of two per shooter with possibly one more complete weapon is spares. I have no direct knowledge of this but my understanding is that a 'workup' alone for the Marines who use these will consist of something like 800rd a day five days a week for 3 weeks...ergo the 12,000rd test specs.
I love me some 1911, but the smart move here would have been the HK45 IMO. |
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the smart move here would have been the HK45 IMO. I'm on record agreeing with your choice in MEUSOC OP. Also sure you're right about Colt sweetening the pot a bit. Anyone checked to see who's on the board of directors at Colt ? Lt. Gen. William M. Keys, USMC (ret.) General Keys stepped down as President and Chief Executive Officer of Colt in late 2010. General Keys also served as chairman of the board and served these positions since 2002. Keys retired from Marine Corp after 34 years of service. It's not hard to see why Colt would have been awarded contract. |
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Those were the guns tested as the CQQ Pistol for Marines, the same guns manufacturer that although 40 percent were deadlined prior to the end of the test that are now deemed acceptable. Were they fired until they failed or did they fail during a standardized test? This,we dont know what real world test they were put thru,but if Colt was accepted,wonder how how the guns that werent accepted looked like. In the first Army trials of the 1911,all the competing guns fell apart-wonder how the others did in comparison. Going to the Springfield Custom shop for FBI spec 1911's would drive the price thru the roof.Colt knows how the build a 1911 and they can support it,they'll be just fine. |
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With damage/malfunctions like that on test pistols, It does not make sense why they stuck with Colt... but for those who know about 1911s, you know that any quality weapon should be just fine for WELL over 12k rds, which is apparently when these broke, or before. what the hell is the problem with colt if theyre turning out a weapon that cant stand up to 12k rds?? I do believe there is more to the story and I hope some information is released soon. Or if I missed something/misunderstood, someone please explain to me.
also, the HK45 would have been a great choice as well, its a fine weapon. But marsoc has used 1911s for a long time, and they have served them very well. they probably do not want to change and like the fact they are the only ones left who regularly carry them. |
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With damage/malfunctions like that on test pistols, It does not make sense why they stuck with Colt... but for those who know about 1911s, you know that any quality weapon should be just fine for WELL over 12k rds, which is apparently when these broke, or before. what the hell is the problem with colt if theyre turning out a weapon that cant stand up to 12k rds?? I do believe there is more to the story and I hope some information is released soon. Or if I missed something/misunderstood, someone please explain to me. also, the HK45 would have been a great choice as well, its a fine weapon. But marsoc has used 1911s for a long time, and they have served them very well. they probably do not want to change and like the fact they are the only ones left who regularly carry them. According to one anectodal report the last deployment of 1911s included issuing 2 ea to the user, none of which lasted the entire deployment. I'm sure R0N can fill in those blanks. |
12K and failed  ......
Someones pockets did get sweetened but yes lot of other options are out there that would surpass the 12K mark and have higher capacity in the 45ACP class...... HK45, M&P45, Glock21, Sig P220, USP 45, MK23, all I would have been ok with carrying.... I think we do not have the full story yet.. or someones palms were greased. |
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There have been 14 vendors that over the years submitted for this program. Â Of those 14, 2 made it to the end testing, Colt and Springfield. Â I don't know why the Springfield didn't make it to phase II testing. Â But the only pistol tested during PII was the Colt and initially it didn't pass the testing. Â Due to cracks which developed in the pistol slides during Reliability Testing, the test was not able to be completed as planned. Â Originally planned for 15,000 rounds per pistol, but stopped early at 12,000 rounds. Â With 1 of 10 guns unable to complete testing (recoil spring binding to the point the slide could not function) and 4 of the remaining 10 unserviceable because of cracking. Â
I know many claim the MEU-SOC45s and later M45s were kept in service because of higher reliability in the Maritime Special Purpose Force shooting program. Â But the documentation I have seen indicates this is not the case with many guns being unserviceable prior to the end of a deployment for most MEU Force Dets. Â And at one time the majority of guns in a MEF were deadlined because of cracks. Â |
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It's Official: USMC Announces Close Quarter Battle Pistol Contract Award to Colt |
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It's Official: USMC Announces Close Quarter Battle Pistol Contract Award to Colt interesting |
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Ok, I'll stick my foot out again because NO ONE has asked what should've been asked in the beginning.
WHAT GRAIN, WHAT VELOCITY AMMUNITION ? That tired, old piece of shit Colt in avatar has over 20,000 rounds through it. I thought so little of my first 1911 with over 50,000 rounds to give it to my son who 's not easy on anything. Countless competition Colts run tens of thousands of rounds. If my goal was to tear the living hell out of a 1911 in 3 days. 45 super would get the job done PDQ, POST HASTE PRONTO loaded at 1200 fps, especially with standard spec springs. Our military has a long and proud tradition of up-specing ammunition without up-specing guns. Last time it happened was to Betetta. Mil. had up-speced over original contract ballistics and sent Beretta scrambling. |
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Those were the guns tested as the CQQ Pistol for Marines, the same guns manufacturer that although 40 percent were deadlined prior to the end of the test that are now deemed acceptable. Would you care to share with us how you acquired the pics and how you seem to know so much about what went on in the test? |
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Those were the guns tested as the CQQ Pistol for Marines, the same guns manufacturer that although 40 percent were deadlined prior to the end of the test that are now deemed acceptable. Would you care to share with us how you acquired the pics and how you seem to know so much about what went on in the test? Everybody on ARFCOM isn't a sponge-bob watching printer repair man, you know. 
It's highly unlikely that these guns were obliterated by some sort of exotic ammo. I wasn't involved in the testing, but I'll wager that they were tested with ammo that the USMC already had on the shelf. |
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Ok, I'll stick my foot out again because NO ONE has asked what should've been asked in the beginning. WHAT GRAIN, WHAT VELOCITY AMMUNITION ? That was my first though; WTF were they shooting? Ball, +P, Super, etc. Seems like an awfully high attrition rate. Also; HTF did they do to that recoil plug? If MARSOC is that hard on guns, their sidearms should be 4lb hammers. |
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Those were the guns tested as the CQQ Pistol for Marines, the same guns manufacturer that although 40 percent were deadlined prior to the end of the test that are now deemed acceptable. Would you care to share with us how you acquired the pics and how you seem to know so much about what went on in the test? Everybody on ARFCOM isn't a sponge-bob watching printer repair man, you know. ...Oh, so NOW you tell me!
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M9s weren't battered by "exotic" ammunition either. I have a hard time associating the word exotic with ammunition unless referring to some odd ass projectile.
What battered the hell out of the Beretta slides was hot loaded 9mm that wasn't used in the original prior to contract. There's nothing exotic about +P charges. All's required is more powder. 45acp is extremely forgiving when up charging. Go to +P brass and now you've got brass that will withstand 1000 fps from 230 grain ball. Plastic guns won't stand a lot of that type abuse for sustained periods either. This isn't me playing fan boy, or being argumentative for the sake of raising my blood pressure either. I'm by no means a weapons expert but I'm not exactly ignorant about 1911design or dumb to cartridge building. The whole deal ain't being told here and this deal is smelling like the fart I just belched. I've no doubt off the shelve ball ammunition was used. My question is what were components used. 230 grain ball, running 875 to 900 fps will not produce the results pictured over 15,000 rounds. Not through my Colts anyways.
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It's highly unlikely that these guns were obliterated by some sort of exotic ammo. I wasn't involved in the testing, but I'll wager that they were tested with ammo that the USMC already had on the shelf. |
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M9s weren't battered by "exotic" ammunition either. I have a hard time associating the word exotic with ammunition unless referring to some odd ass projectile. What battered the hell out of the Beretta slides was hot loaded 9mm that wasn't used in the original prior to contract. There's nothing exotic about +P charges. All's required is more powder. 45acp is extremely forgiving when up charging. Go to +P brass and now you've got brass that will withstand 1000 fps from 230 grain ball. Plastic guns won't stand a lot of that type abuse for sustained periods either. This isn't me playing fan boy, or being argumentative for the sake of raising my blood pressure either. I'm by no means a weapons expert but I'm not exactly ignorant about 1911design or dumb to cartridge building. The whole deal ain't being told here and this deal is smelling like the fart I just belched. I've no doubt off the shelve ball ammunition was used. My question is what were components used. 230 grain ball, running 875 to 900 fps will not produce the results pictured over 15,000 rounds. Not through my Colts anyways.
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It's highly unlikely that these guns were obliterated by some sort of exotic ammo. I wasn't involved in the testing, but I'll wager that they were tested with ammo that the USMC already had on the shelf. you summed up my thoughts exactly I have a rail gun I bought back late 2010 with a tiny bit over 11K rounds through it now. All with ball 230 grain ammo, I have no plans on tossing it away |
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Congratulations to the USMC, MARSOC/Force Recon & Colt. May the new M45 serve our countrymen well for many years to come.
In regards to the photos, isn't there a saying "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear"........ Exactly how were these weapons tested? What type of ammo? How many rounds? What type of environment? The USMC isn't stupid and wouldn't replace tried and true weapons with new material that is going to be broken in a short time frame. That would be outrageous and would not follow the pattern of this process. The USMC has thrown out more companies than accepted for this pistol trial. Now all of the sudden, they just decide to go with junk Colt guns????? It's not like the 1911 is a new platform for the USMC to figure out or that there aren't plenty of vendors available ala Springfield/Kimber who can provide 1911s in a pinch. What if the slides did crack and Colt realized there was a problem and has already fixed it? Testing and Evaluating new equipment is just that, TESTING and EVALUATING which means sometimes we go back to the drawing board. The first flight of the F-14 Tomcat ended with the crew ejecting and the aircraft crashing into the woods of Long Island. That's not a good day for a new program but it moved forward and America ended up relying on that platform from 1972-2006 as the Navy's primary Fighter. Rather than hysterics and "WHAT ABOUT THE H&K/GLOCK/M&P", lets take a step back, see what official information is released and watch to see how the hardware stands up in service use. |
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In the world of cartridge building we toss around some slang with .45acp and the use of +P ratings.
230 grain running 850 fps to 950 fps deserves a +P rating. 950 fps and above should be ++P. By the time we get into 45 super kind of velocities it is my opinion we are into +++P ratings. This is my thinking on the matter since industry ratings only provision +P. What's actually being used is anybodies guess. My thoughts on the subject are simple. I've never seen a 1911 self destruct using 850 fps, 230 grain ammunition which is a right around GI spec. For these guns to have self destructed either indicates poor manufacturing or the use of P rated ammunition. That said, keep this in mind. Springfield slides are harder than Colts. How would I know ?? Because I have to buy the endmills these slides destroy while milling sights. Springfield didn't make it to phase two and Springfield rates their 1911s +P. Given slide hardness and heavier springs Springfield uses, +P rating is correct. In fact Springfield GIs were rated for .45 super..... see where I'm going with this ?? That's heavier than Colt rates the rail gun. I'd take Colt quality over Springfield quality any day. Both being excellent. We just don't get reports or see pictures as seen from trials. A few of us manage to get quite a few rounds down range in between copier repairs.
I'm not ruling anything out. I'm just saying the deal ain't adding up. Quoted:
I wonder if they intend to shoot them with +P ammo. Just curious. |