Posted: 7/6/2010 8:00:25 PM EDT
| Im thinking about getting new night sights for my carry piece (Kimber Stainless covert series I). Anyone know of any good night sights that have LARGE dots for quick target acquisition? |
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+1 there is a reason why the larger dot works best on the XS system, and not as well on traditional 3 dot setups––ie: the eye picks up the big dot, which floats on the V, which is easier overall to connect vs lining up 3 of the same sized dots on the same plane |
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Im thinking about getting new night sights for my carry piece (Kimber Stainless covert series I). Anyone know of any good night sights that have LARGE dots for quick target acquisition? Define "large dots", please. Warren Tactical makes a 3 dot sight system that uses smaller, subdued tritium elements for the 2 rear dots and a standard sized dot for the front sight....this means that the rear dots are visible and useful for reference but they eye is naturally drawn to the bigger, brighter front sight. Since XS Big Dots were mentioned I'll go ahead and say that they suck out loud. |
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Since XS Big Dots were mentioned I'll go ahead and say that they suck out loud. I will second that. They are very much a love it or hate it sight set up. Two or three years ago I was reading about them all over and was convinced of the superiority. I purchased three sets and ran them on all my pistols for the better part of a year. Shooting included plinking, defensive drills, USPSA, and bowling pins, and a bunch of other games. I too came to the conclusion that they suck. For the type of shooting the XS Big Dots excel at, I can and do shoot a Glock just as well with with no sights on it. When the shooting being done required real precision and therefore sight alignment, they are worthless. I replaced them all with Warren Tactical 2dot tritium sets. I still have the easy to spot front sight reference with the addition of excellently designed and executed notch and post iron sights. I know many swear by the XS Big Dots. I recommend to all who ask me to install a set for them, to try to shoot a pistol equipped with them before putting the money down on them. |
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Since XS Big Dots were mentioned I'll go ahead and say that they suck out loud. I know many swear by the XS Big Dots. I recommend to all who ask me to install a set for them, to try to shoot a pistol equipped with them before putting the money down on them. +2 pulled just as many off a gun as installed, 100% the same gun a few weeks later. |
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Im thinking about getting new night sights for my carry piece (Kimber Stainless covert series I). Anyone know of any good night sights that have LARGE dots for quick target acquisition? Define "large dots", please. Warren Tactical makes a 3 dot sight system that uses smaller, subdued tritium elements for the 2 rear dots and a standard sized dot for the front sight....this means that the rear dots are visible and useful for reference but they eye is naturally drawn to the bigger, brighter front sight. Since XS Big Dots were mentioned I'll go ahead and say that they suck out loud. LOL - I never liked XS - bought one for an AR and when the instructions incuded red locktite, I was like 
Sold them and stayed with Trijicon |
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All I can say about XS sights is that they work for me. I have poor eyesight and shoot right handed, but I am left eye dominate so shooting with both eyes open was a really problem for me until I tried XS sights. I had a hard time tracking the front sight, and picking it up quickly, XS sights definitely help with that type of problem.
I don't understand all the love/hate some people have for XS sights, they are just a set of sights either they work for you or they don't. |
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All I can say about XS sights is that they work for me. I have poor eyesight There are certainly some folks who are faced with a choice of the giant lollipop or a complete inability to see their sights, and for those folks the XS system might be better than conventional sights. Sights are intensely personal things because nobody else sees the world the way you do. I mean, think about it....what does green look like to someone else? When you really ponder that it's some seriously trippy shit. There's only a problem when some people run around insisting that XS sights are objectively the greatest gunfighting sights ever invented. That's when it gets gay. The giant lollipop concept works best with a threat-focused sight picture where you are essentially looking through the sights, not really AT the sights. At closer ranges the threat focused sighting picture allows you to make hits on decent sized targets with excellent speed. The problem is that when you are shooting for more precision up close or for any kind of a hit on a reasonable target at longer distances the XS sights become a liability. The almost vestigial rear sight doesn't provide much useful feedback in the alignment of the sights, which allows you to slightly misalign the sights without being able to detect it. As a result, people often take longer to align the lollipop when they are shooting, and they still end up missing. So while they work up close on big targets, they kind of suck on small targets and at longer ranges. Conventional sights, on the other hand, can be used up close just as effectively as the big dots by most and they offer enough useful visual feedback to get pinpoint accuracy up close and to hit smaller targets at distance. It's worth noting that no top competition shooters use XS sights. None of the high-speed CQB specialists in LE or the military use XS sights. No one has ever earned an advanced rating at the Rogers shooting school with XS sights. They work when you're shooting at something fairly big and fairly close...which in all honesty a reasonably well trained shooter can hit without any sights on the weapon at all....but if you take them outside that envelope they quickly become a liability for most people who aren't dealing with vision problems. When someone points out that they gave the sights a run on the square range and found them wanting, I've actually seen people argue that the XS sights are "gunfighting" sights whose merits cannot be measured on the square range. That is, of course, pure bullshit. It is utterly absurd to argue that something which sucks in the relatively low demand, relatively low stress environment of the square range suddenly becomes a lot better in the high stress, high demand environment of a gunfight. I don't understand all the love/hate some people have for XS sights, they are just a set of sights either they work for you or they don't. I recently attended a course with a big XS sight proponent who, after the fact, asserted that he was faster than everybody else in the course making his hits because of his XS sights. Those of us who were present at the course found this assertion odd, as we watched him miss the target an awful lot (on one string of bullseye fire he dropped 20 points) and we wondered how he judged himself to be "faster" given that on many of the drills we weren't on a timer. That's just the sort of kool-aid drinking you get from hardcore XS disciples. If someone finds that the XS is the best compromise for them because of vision issues, I have no beef with that. As I said, we all see the world differently. What I find most often is that the champions of XS sights who aren't dealing with vision issues just don't know how to use traditional sights very well. Once they start improving their skill to the point where they figure out some of the stuff I've talked about, they often ditch the XS sights and buy real sights again. That, or they make excuses for why they suck. Now personally it doesn't bug me if someone wants to use the goofy sights and never improve...it does bug me, however, when they hop on the internet and spread the idea that the XS sights are the most awesomest thing EVER and that they are real gunfighting sights. |
I was lucky enough to have a buddy take the plunge on XS sights so I didn't have to  .
After spending some time getting used to them I was able to shoot with relatively decent accuracy at 25 yards... but it was SLOOOOOW trying to make accurate hits. Very tedious work and not a good general purpose sight. They were easier to use than 3dot night sights up close but I honestly believe that has more to do with 3 dot vs 1 dot instead of the "big" dot factor. Having spent some time with Warren 2 dot setups and 3 dot trijicons with the rear dots blacked out I've come to realize that having 3 identical dots really sucks for quick aiming and rapid fire. Having a single dot(or single outlined dot) makes reacquiring the sights much easier. |
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To John_Wayne777
That was a very detailed reply of why you don't like XS sights, a lot of people just post that they tried them and they suck, and give no reason to why they suck. There's only a problem when some people run around insisting that XS sights are objectively the greatest gunfighting sights ever invented. That's when it gets gay. The giant lollipop concept works best with a threat-focused sight picture where you are essentially looking through the sights, not really AT the sights. At closer ranges the threat focused sighting picture allows you to make hits on decent sized targets with excellent speed. The problem is that when you are shooting for more precision up close or for any kind of a hit on a reasonable target at longer distances the XS sights become a liability. The almost vestigial rear sight doesn't provide much useful feedback in the alignment of the sights, which allows you to slightly misalign the sights without being able to detect it. As a result, people often take longer to align the lollipop when they are shooting, and they still end up missing.
This way that I use my XS sights, I focus on the front sight, the rear sight is in my sight picture but my focus is the front sight, so the target and rear sight are fuzzy. around 0-15 yards I place the dot on top of the target, outside of that I place the target on top of the dot. I could see why people would having a problem trying to focus on the target rather than the front sight. I am not saying you are wrong or right, I am just suggesting that unless you try XS sights how do you know that you wont like them? Why do some people come out and just slam the idea? I understand if you have been shooting for years with conventional sights I can see why you would be better with them, but for new shooters why not try something else and see what happens. I think a lot of the hate for XS sights could be compared to the hate that red dot sights, and lasers sights got. Some people just don't like change. Edit : Sorry SemperFi89 for hijacking your thread, but hopefully this debate will help you decide whether you want to try XS sights or not. |
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I am not saying you are wrong or right, I am just suggesting that unless you try XS sights how do you know that you wont like them? Why do some people come out and just slam the idea? I understand if you have been shooting for years with conventional sights I can see why you would be better with them, but for new shooters why not try something else and see what happens. I think a lot of the hate for XS sights could be compared to the hate that red dot sights, and lasers sights got. Some people just don't like change. Oh, I've tried them...and I've found that they didn't do anything for me that normal sights don't do up close, and that they sucked out loud at longer ranges. It's not a matter of not liking change, it's a matter of giving them a shot and determining that I was slower and less accurate in many circumstances because the feedback I was getting from the sights suck. Lots of people with a lot of skill have given the XS sights a go and found them wanting for the reasons I outlined above. That's why you don't see them dominating competition or the market for sights among the HSLD types. |
| I'll differ from some of the other posters in that I really like the XS Big Dots. They may not be the best sights for gun games, but I have them on my carry guns. They help me concentrate on the front sight. I'm not going to have time to put on my reading glasses during a defensive situation, and I just can't see regular sights that well when I'm trying to shoot fast. I have no use for 3 dot sights, and black out the rear dots on my non-carry handguns that have them. |
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I am not saying you are wrong or right, I am just suggesting that unless you try XS sights how do you know that you wont like them? Why do some people come out and just slam the idea? I understand if you have been shooting for years with conventional sights I can see why you would be better with them, but for new shooters why not try something else and see what happens. I think a lot of the hate for XS sights could be compared to the hate that red dot sights, and lasers sights got. Some people just don't like change. Oh, I've tried them...and I've found that they didn't do anything for me that normal sights don't do up close, and that they sucked out loud at longer ranges. It's not a matter of not liking change, it's a matter of giving them a shot and determining that I was slower and less accurate in many circumstances because the feedback I was getting from the sights suck. Lots of people with a lot of skill have given the XS sights a go and found them wanting for the reasons I outlined above. That's why you don't see them dominating competition or the market for sights among the HSLD types. Thats my point, you don't like them because you are better/faster with conventional sights, I assume you have been using conventional sights for a long time. What If you first started shooting with XS sights, would you be better with them than you are with conventional sights? I would bet that most HSLD types put in a lot of training with conventional sights, maybe that is why they are so proficient with them, but how about the average CCW holder who only makes it to the range once a month, could he benefit from a easy to focus on front sight? I know this is a lot of what ifs, but my point is that just because they suck for you, dose not mean they will suck for everyone. |
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Thats my point, you don't like them because you are better/faster with conventional sights, I assume you have been using conventional sights for a long time. What If you first started shooting with XS sights, would you be better with them than you are with conventional sights? I would bet that most HSLD types put in a lot of training with conventional sights, maybe that is why they are so proficient with them, but how about the average CCW holder who only makes it to the range once a month, could he benefit from a easy to focus on front sight? I know this is a lot of what ifs, but my point is that just because they suck for you, dose not mean they will suck for everyone. It's not merely a question of focusing on the front sight. All the focus you can muster on the front sight is utterly useless if your rear sight isn't providing adequate feedback on the alignment of the sights. Because of the almost non-existent rear sight, it's extremely easy to misalign the sights, even slightly, which will mean the difference between hitting the black at 25 yards and barely hitting paper. It may seem just fine if you are shooting at an 8" circle at 5 yards, but try shooting at a 1" square at that same range. Try shooting at a 6" circle at 25 yards. Suddenly the consequences of that misalignment become obvious in a way you can't see when you are shooting at targets that are too big. There's absolutely no reason why the average CCW holder who practices once a month can't learn to see conventional sights barring any vision issues...he can even modify them to make them easier to see by painting the front sight a loud color like yellow or orange. I've done side by side comparisons with shooters of various levels of skill as have other people with a lot more experience than me...and for the overwhelming majority of people the XS sights have some serious disadvantages. |
Any who shoots will tell you this.