[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Massad Ayoob - Is he wrong? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 10/7/2009 5:23:44 PM EDT
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He says to use the slide stop on a Glock. Link.
I used to run the slide stop, then everyone on ARFCOM told me it wasn't a good method due to the lack of fine motor skills under stress. I switched to the overhand racking method for emergency reloads, and the IDPA guys tell me I should use the slide stop because it's faster. Now Massad Ayoob says to do it. I guess it boils down to personal preference? (Not going to lie, the slide stop on the Sig P22X series is tiny and impossible to get a reliable depression.) |
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IDPA is a game... Massad plays that game too... in a game you do whatever you can to achieve a high score or great time...
in real life practical applications, overhand racking the slide is a coarse motor movement that doesn't change from one automatic to another... it's also the same motor skill used to clear a malfunction... it makes more sense in my opinion to learn and practice as few muscle movements as possible which you are more likely to remember and successfully perform under stress with any gun... as opposed to fine motor movements which WILL degrade under stress and may differ on various guns (size, shape, position, tension of slide catch)... the game changes when bullets are coming at you and the targets aren't paper... I am going to Blackwater next week, when i get back i'll let you know what they teach... |
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Using your trigger finger is a fine motor skill. Larry Vickers says use the slide stop, I agree with him, even as a lefty. The slide stop on a glock is an exeption. 1911, Sigs etc drop easier than a Glock slide stop. If you can do it great (I can ) but lower performing Glock carriers are better off with the grab top of the slide and sling shot method. A good 80 to 90 % of students coming through my Police Academy have never even held a gun. If you can do it great. But if you are trying to mass produce reasonably competent gunmen out of the uninitiated, the slide stop is just that. Don't even get me started on the average skill level of former Soldiers. |
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Using your trigger finger is a fine motor skill. Larry Vickers says use the slide stop, I agree with him, even as a lefty. The slide stop on a glock is an exeption. 1911, Sigs etc drop easier than a Glock slide stop. If you can do it great (I can ) but lower performing Glock carriers are better off with the grab top of the slide and sling shot method. A good 80 to 90 % of students coming through my Police Academy have never even held a gun. Don't even get me started on the average skill level of former Soldiers. That former soldier was a member of Delta. Not your average soldier that receives no training with a pistol. Hell, he built some of the finest pistols to grace God's green earth. And even as a lefty I can hit a regular Glock slide stop with my trigger finger with no problems. |
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I am going to Blackwater next week, when i get back i'll let you know what they teach... Don't expect much if you're going in a civilian class. They were pretty much a feel good class. I went 4 years ago with a arfcom class. I was the high shooter in the class. I didn't really benefit. |
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Using your trigger finger is a fine motor skill. Larry Vickers says use the slide stop, I agree with him, even as a lefty. The slide stop on a glock is an exeption. 1911, Sigs etc drop easier than a Glock slide stop. If you can do it great (I can ) but lower performing Glock carriers are better off with the grab top of the slide and sling shot method. A good 80 to 90 % of students coming through my Police Academy have never even held a gun. Don't even get me started on the average skill level of former Soldiers. That former soldier was a member of Delta. Not your average soldier that receives no training with a pistol. Hell, he built some of the finest pistols to grace God's green earth. And even as a lefty I can hit a regular Glock slide stop with my trigger finger with no problems. The best shot I ever saw come throught the academy was a muscular young man that was "in the Navy" and would only say "he did a lot of training" when asked what his rate was. |
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That former soldier was a member of Delta. I believe he is also a Grandmaster in IDPA. His direct quote to one of our classes was, "The slide release on a Glock, 1911, M&P, Hk45 and many other autos is generally in the same place as where your thumb/thumbs are going to end up when you regrip after you reload. Use that to your advantage." You are also 100% spot on when saying he, and several others, identify the pulling of the trigger as a fine motor skill, not to mention the mag releases on an AR or AK, or most of those pistols as well. I was an overhand charger before, I am a thumb releaser now. I am faster on target with the thumbs activating the slide release. That's what matters to me. Game or no game. |
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I shoot left handed, so that's wrong for me. I like to practice the same way on every gun and I HATE extended controls on a carry gun. So for me it's slingshot all the way. It may be slightly slower, but it's far more reliable and consistent and with fine motor skills out the window it is, IMO, a better way to do it. |
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In addition to working with any make / model of service auto you are likely to find yourself with, and playing to gross motor skills under stress, the 'slingshot' method also allows for a little more travel in the slide, which translates to a bit more force when feeding, which might make the difference in some cases and if not, certainly will not hurt.
Slingshot / overhand for me, thank you. |
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In addition to working with any make / model of service auto you are likely to find yourself with, and playing to gross motor skills under stress, the 'slingshot' method also allows for a little more travel in the slide, which translates to a bit more force when feeding, which might make the difference in some cases and if not, certainly will not hurt. Slingshot / overhand for me, thank you. It really all comes down to what works best for the individual shooter. Whichever you chose, practice it until it's automatic. Like ikor, I slingshot. |
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There's so much pseudo intellectual douchebaggery on this subject it makes me want to puke.
GLOCK DESIGNED IT SO THAT IT *COULD* BE USED AS A RELEASE Those serrations aren't for decoration. Neither is the extended tab version. 
From the GLOCK manual: Insert a new magazine and then either push the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it
to spring forwards. Please stop the pseudo tactical bull. |
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...but it's far more reliable... Tough to prove and/or illustrate. ...and consistent...
Tough to to prove and/or illustrate. Also subject to practice with each method. I've seen plenty of people who can not charge a handgun or carbine consistently. Using ANY method. ...and with fine motor skills out the window it is, IMO, a better way to do it.
You're not listening. The trigger manipulation is a fine motor skill. The magazine release on most any weapon is a fine motor skill. Sight alignment is a fine motor skill. It's fine to say the slingshot works better for you, but it isn't because it's a gross vs. fine motor skills issue. 
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Quoted: From the GLOCK manual: Insert a new magazine and then either push the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it to spring forwards. Please stop the pseudo tactical bull. Downright scary the number of folks who do not take the time to read/learn what is in the manual for a firearm. |
I have shot my little bro's. G20, I'm a Southpaw  , and find it difficult to release the magazine as well as using the slide stop to release the slide when reloading. Glocks and Sigs are horrendous when it comes to being lefty friendly and using the slingshot method is better, IMO, for lefties while still using my/our trigger finger for mag release. I have gotten better at using the slide stop on the Glock but every now and then I can't find it with my trigger finger since it is so puny.
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| I use the slide stop after loading and to me it is faster and there isn't anything wrong with using this method. To say its a fine motor skill, I don't think so. Slap the mag in, hit the release with your thumb, thumbs go forward and you're on target. Just practice, practice, practice and it's not a problem. |
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If you can reach it and use it reliably- more power to you. For those of us who can't reach it or use it reliably overhand is the way to go. Yep. I have small hands. My children have even smaller hands. It's much easier and less fumbling when teaching newbie to shoot auto. |
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not this shit again. Shooting accurately is a fine motor skill. sling shot you can ride the slide home causing a malfunction. +1 i've sling shotted slides a few times and i guess i didn't release quickly enough or rode the slide a bit, which has prevent my glocks and xds to not go fully inter battery. pressing down ont he slide stop always works. at the range, i usually just sling shot to prevent wear on the slide stop. but hell, why would the manufacturers serrate slide stops and make them with a fairly large surface area if they didn't want you to press down on them to release the slide? |
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There's so much pseudo intellectual douchebaggery on this subject it makes me want to puke. GLOCK DESIGNED IT SO THAT IT *COULD* BE USED AS A RELEASE Those serrations aren't for decoration. Neither is the extended tab version. http://www.ccwsupply.biz/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/GlockSlideReleaseFULL.jpg From the GLOCK manual: Insert a new magazine and then either push the slide stop lever (27) downwards (see photo), or pull the slide slightly backwards and allow it
to spring forwards. Please stop the pseudo tactical bull. Thank you. |
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IDPA is a game... Massad plays that game too... in a game you do whatever you can to achieve a high score or great time... I am going to Blackwater next week, when i get back i'll let you know what they teach... Are you shooting the Blackwater IDPA "game" while you are there? How about the Blackwater USPSA (ipsc) "game" ?? Maybe the Blackwater 3gun "game" ?? There is a REASON that Blackwater hosts IDPA, USPSA and 3gun shoots (and it is NOT to get rich). Don't be surprised when everyone in your class who regularly plays defensive gun "games" (including your Blackwater instructors) manages to kick your ass as far as the handgun skills Blackwater will teach you. I suppose you can be forgiven for your ignorant statements about IDPA in light of your honest confession that you are in need of (and are seeking) professional training. Maybe someday you will see the light. |
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I shoot a shit ton a month, I shoot every IDPA match in my area. I prefer to use the slide release. If you hold the gun with your thumbs high and along the frame pointing downrange, your thumbs are in the perfect position to manipulate the slide release. IMHO it is quicker than reaching over the top and pulling back on the slide to release it.
But what would I know, IDPA is just a game, no real training value.
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There are generally 3 methods of releasing the slide that are taught. Each has pros and cons.
1. Use of the dominant hand thumb - fastest of the 3, but not everyone can do it due to hand and weapon control size 2. Use of the support hand thumb - 2nd fastest, natural motion of the hand during the reload process, May experience failure to feed in some dirty guns 3. Overhand - slowest of the 3. Works across all platforms, lots of wasted motion I used to exclusively be a #3 shooter until I expanded my training circle and have moved into group #2 now. The gross/fine motor skill debate is greatly overhyped by certain trainers. You may see some degrade in ability, but you aren't going to go from pressing the trigger and mag release to a becoming a flubbering idiot incapable of hitting the mag release in the fraction of a second |
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I've got pretty big hands, don't see the need to do the sling shot method, the standard slide release method is pretty quick/reliable for me. I've never, ever failed to release the slide on my G19 after 3 years of shooting. Just started doing IDPA last year. I remember that part of TR's reasoning for teaching this was that most of the energy was stored up in the last section of spring. Meh, my weapons are well cleaned and maintained, i've never had problems releasing the slide with the slide release lever. As always, consider different methods with an open mind, and do what works for you. If you're a 12 year old girl with tiny hands and short fingers, then yeah, the sling shot method makes sense for you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDlodGEp_9o |
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There are generally 3 methods of releasing the slide that are taught. Each has pros and cons. 1. Use of the dominant hand thumb - fastest of the 3, but not everyone can do it due to hand and weapon control size 2. Use of the support hand thumb - 2nd fastest, natural motion of the hand during the reload process, May experience failure to feed in some dirty guns 3. Overhand - slowest of the 3. Works across all platforms, lots of wasted motion I used to exclusively be a #3 shooter until I expanded my training circle and have moved into group #2 now. The gross/fine motor skill debate is greatly overhyped by certain trainers. You may see some degrade in ability, but you aren't going to go from pressing the trigger and mag release to a becoming a flubbering idiot incapable of hitting the mag release in the fraction of a second So what about us lefties? Trigger finger? Our former spec ops trainer guy here is 100 percent No. 3, overhand. |
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There are generally 3 methods of releasing the slide that are taught. Each has pros and cons. 1. Use of the dominant hand thumb - fastest of the 3, but not everyone can do it due to hand and weapon control size 2. Use of the support hand thumb - 2nd fastest, natural motion of the hand during the reload process, May experience failure to feed in some dirty guns 3. Overhand - slowest of the 3. Works across all platforms, lots of wasted motion I used to exclusively be a #3 shooter until I expanded my training circle and have moved into group #2 now. The gross/fine motor skill debate is greatly overhyped by certain trainers. You may see some degrade in ability, but you aren't going to go from pressing the trigger and mag release to a becoming a flubbering idiot incapable of hitting the mag release in the fraction of a second So what about us lefties? Trigger finger? Our former spec ops trainer guy here is 100 percent No. 3, overhand. The trigger finger is an option as is using the support hand index finger (comes under the gun and presses down). The overhand method would obviously work as well. Pistols such as the M&P are eliminating this problem though |
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Me and that little tab don't get along even when practicing. I'd hate to see how bad I suck at using it when I am all sweaty and freaked out. I train overhand with it. I have short thumbs though and I cannot reach it without shifting my grip, which takes as longer than going overhand, especially when I slip or miss the thing.
I am not too sure about the wasted movement hypothesis as your other hand is already there after the mag change. I can say with reasonable certainty that I am faster with the slingshot. Go with whatever works for you. |
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That former soldier was a member of Delta. I believe he is also a Grandmaster in IDPA. There is no Grandmaster class in IDPA. Oops....Master....I do not game, therefore I did not know/care. http://vickerstactical.com/about-larry-vickers-2/civilian-background/ * Top Ten finisher at USPSA Limited Nationals in 1993 & 1994 * Two time top CDP shooter at IDPA Winter Nationals * Two time top 5 finisher in my class at IDPA Nationals * Founding member of International Defensive Pistol Association (IDPA) * IDPA Vickers Count scoring system is named after me -I did not originate it however; I learned it from Rob Leatham (an interesting story in itself) * Master Class USPSA Limited Shooter * Master Class IDPA shooter in CDP, ESP, and SSP |
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Me and that little tab don't get along even when practicing. I'd hate to see how bad I suck at using it when I am all sweaty and freaked out. I train overhand with it. I have short thumbs though and I cannot reach it without shifting my grip, which takes as longer than going overhand, especially when I slip or miss the thing. I am not too sure about the wasted movement hypothesis as your other hand is already there after the mag change. I can say with reasonable certainty that I am faster with the slingshot. Go with whatever works for you. If you use your support hand, you shouldnt have to shift your grip on the pistol. The overhand method requires motion since your hand has to come over top of the gun, grab the slide, pull it to the rear, then return to position under the gun. Unless I'm missing something, thats a lot more motion than moving your thumb (dominant or support). |
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That former soldier was a member of Delta. I believe he is also a Grandmaster in IDPA. His direct quote to one of our classes was, "The slide release on a Glock, 1911, M&P, Hk45 and many other autos is generally in the same place as where your thumb/thumbs are going to end up when you regrip after you reload. Use that to your advantage." You are also 100% spot on when saying he, and several others, identify the pulling of the trigger as a fine motor skill, not to mention the mag releases on an AR or AK, or most of those pistols as well. I was an overhand charger before, I am a thumb releaser now. I am faster on target with the thumbs activating the slide release. That's what matters to me. Game or no game. As a southpaw, I use my trigger finger. I'm also faster than when I tried using the overhand method. I also noticed at the range I would have to force myself to stop, use the overhand method, and then carry on. By nature I wanted to use my trigger finger. |
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Here's something to consider. I recently injured my thumb(smashed and broke it) and can't use it to hit the slide stop or mag release for the time being. Yet I can still shoot right handed if I choose to. I mainly use my support side thumb to engage the slide stop or slingshot anyways but everyone should consider what they will do if they are hurt and can't do things the way they normally would. When shooting lefty I found that slingshoting worked the best for me since I have trouble hitting the slidestop with my index finger on my left hand. It's all about that fine motor skills thing I guess. I think all three methods NCpatrol listed should be practiced to some extent. Then decide whats going to work best for you the majority of the time.
We don't get to choose when we get into a fight and may not have use of all our limbs before or during that fight, plan accordingly. Just my opinion.
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