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Posted: 7/22/2003 4:24:14 PM EDT
I've got an older model 36 Smith & Wesson (flat latch, no model # anywhere)that I bought as a warm weather carry gun. Now, my question is: is it safe to shoot +p in this thing. If not, is there a decent non +p .38 round that would work or should I just trade it in? Thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 4:35:00 PM EDT
Yes it is safe to shoot +P ammo in it. However,. If you train with a steady diet of +P ammo it will wear out faster. Revolvers wear out by eroading the forcing cone, stress of the cylender crane, and the timing of the small lockwork parts. My GP100 which I ffeed a steady diet of .357mag ammo has had to be tuned up 3 times by Ruger.

Train with 148Gn HBLW (which incidentally is one of the best self defense loads for a 2" .38) or with standard velocity 158GN LRN.

Winchester 130Gn SXT JHP is a pretty mild shooting +P load, and expands as well as any HP in the caliber.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 5:29:48 PM EDT
38 Special +P 158 gr HP SWC, Lead
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 5:55:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
38 Special +P 158 gr HP SWC, Lead



Offfers acceptable performance from 4" Brl guns only. It does not expand when fired form a 2" Brl .38.

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000049.html

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000126.html

and some of the most recent test data available:

64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000282.html
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 6:20:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 7:47:59 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
No .38 special round reliably expands AND penetrates sufficiently out of a 2" barrel.

The 158gr LSWCHP +P is the best compromise of hopefully getting SOME expansion without underpenetrating.
Link Posted: 7/22/2003 6:41:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/22/2003 6:42:06 PM EDT by SGB]

Out of the 3" and 4" guns, the 158 gr +P LSWCHP work well, especially the Remington R38S12. Unfortunately, NONE of these rounds expand when shot through heavy clothing using a 2" J-frame. Because of this, we have gone to plain old standard pressure wadcutters--you don't lose anything and may gain a slightly bigger permanent crush cavity, as well as make it easier for follow-up shots


You've got to kidding.........in a 2inch snubby a standard velocity wadcutter is better for self defense that a +P hollowpoint? BECAUSE the HP won't expand when fired through heavy clothing?

Sorry, common sense says i gotta call ...



Link Posted: 7/23/2003 1:57:22 AM EDT
Actually SGB, AR15fan has some good points. The 158 gr LSWCHP will do ok in bare gel from a 2" barrel but fairs horribly in clothing tests. This is one case where there are no "mights" or "maybe's" when it comes to expansion. Through any type of heavier clothing this load just will not expand when fired from a snubby.

I carry a Taurus Model 85 (not one of the lightweight versions) and because it isn't too much of a beast when fired with +P loads, I carry the 158 gr HP +P during hot weather when only a light layer of clothing such as t-shirts are expected to be encountered. But when cool and cold weather returns and you start seeing heavier layers added on, that's when I go back to the 148 gr wadcutters. The reason? When you are sure there's not gonna be expansion with the 158 gr +P lead HP's then the waadcutter is a better choice. With it's flat cookie cutter type edge, it will tear a more severe wound channel than a HP with a tapered nose. It also penetrates to ideal depths and is very mild to shoot. Chances are if I had one of the ultra lightweight titanium models, I would just carry the 148 gr wadcutter year around to aid in shot recovery.

Now if were talking full size revolvers here with a 4" barrel, the 158 gr LSWCHP +P would be my load of choice. It gives the bullet enough zip to perform a bit better and more reliably in terms of expansion. But in a 2" barrel when heavier clothing can be encountered, the 148 gr wadcutter is just a better choice.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:48:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/23/2003 3:50:25 AM EDT by FreeAmerican]
OK, I have a question.... what do they mean by 4 layer denim?? Does that mean 4 layers wrapped around the test gel?? I did not know that bad guys were wearing 4 pairs of jeans and jackets as body armor?

I've been carrying +P Hyda-shocks in my S&W 60 because I thought the post in the center was to help with the cloth / clogging issue.

What about Federal's nylon coated +P hp?? Would the nylon help as it passed through the cloth???

BTW... this issue has me thinking about the snubbie 625 in 45 acp...
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:27:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FreeAmerican:
OK, I have a question.... what do they mean by 4 layer denim?? Does that mean 4 layers wrapped around the test gel?? I did not know that bad guys were wearing 4 pairs of jeans and jackets as body armor?



Yep, it means 4 layers of denim placed in front of the gel. When doing clothing tests you have to start with some material and the denim is as good as any. The layering is done to simulate the multiple layers you will find people wearing in Winter. If a bullet fails to expand in 4 layer denim testing then it is highly unlikely to expand after passing through other test materials or Winter clothing. There are two extremes in bullet testing. On one end is the bare gel which is a bit unrealistic unless you only plan on shooting naked attackers. The 4 layer denim is the opposite extreme, designed to show the bullet's performance in Winter clothing. The actual results in some cases may sit in between these two extremes. That's why I carry the 158 gr +P lead HP's when I feel that only the lightest of clothing is expected to be encountered.


I've been carrying +P Hyda-shocks in my S&W 60 because I thought the post in the center was to help with the cloth / clogging issue.


The Hydra-Shok is often a very poor performing load and I personally would not use it in any of my weapons for self defense. The post in the center does nothing to improve it's performance while passing through clothing and may actually "pre-clog" it by simply being there. There are much better loads available than the Hydra-Shok for pistol calibers these days as the Hydra-Shok has been superseded by newer and better designs. Only folks like the Evan Marshall camp will recommend the Hydra-Shok bullet and we all know (or should know) that they are full of crap. I will be happy to provide data proving this point if requested.


What about Federal's nylon coated +P hp?? Would the nylon help as it passed through the cloth???


Again, we are talking about a 2" barrel .38 Special snubby here. No ammo made is going to offer spectacular performance in the confines of this caliber and barrel length. These loads in such conditions will either won't expand at all, will expand but underpenetrate or expand when clothing isn't a factor. This gun and ammo is at best a trade-off to get a small gun that still has some capability. It's still better than mouse gun calibers but less effective than modern 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP loads. But we tolerate this trade-off to gain concealability.


BTW... this issue has me thinking about the snubbie 625 in 45 acp...



Snubby .45's probably aren't going to allow for any expansion either. Take a look at the 3" and 3.5" barrel ultra-compact 1911's. There are no current loads for these that offer great performance but still, it's a .45 caliber hole without expansion and this is better than a .38 caliber hole. However, the ultra-compact 9mm's with proper ammo such as the Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ and standard pressure 147 gr versions will still perform well, providing adequate penetration and expansion from these short barrels. This might be an option for you as well if a small, yet effective gun is something you want.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:51:41 AM EDT
What about 357 magnum??

I have a Taurus 605, 2.25 inch ported barrel and it is a 357 magnum.

I plan on using it for carry next year when I get out of Liberals R US in Maryland and move to Virginia.

I am planing to get an HK USP 45 for winter carry, but summer carry I will carry the Taurus.

how well does the 357 work with heavy clothing out of a snubbie barrel?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 6:11:09 AM EDT
Charging_Handle,

Thanks for the info... I'll scrap the Hydra shocks! In my 9mm I've been using the Federal Hi-shock +P+ (supposed to be leo), 40 165 Golden Saber and .45 is the only other that I use Hydra shocks (230 gr)

Do you have a link to some data? I would like to look at some other cal.'s combos

Thanks
Ron
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 10:37:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mjohn3006:
What about 357 magnum??

I have a Taurus 605, 2.25 inch ported barrel and it is a 357 magnum.

I plan on using it for carry next year when I get out of Liberals R US in Maryland and move to Virginia.

I am planing to get an HK USP 45 for winter carry, but summer carry I will carry the Taurus.

how well does the 357 work with heavy clothing out of a snubbie barrel?



John,

Go to www.tacticalforums.com and do a search for ".357 magnum" in the Terminal Effects forum. You will find a wealth of information there and at least one thread I participated in that was 2 pages long. It will shed a lot of light on the .357 and hopefully it will help you in your decisions. Again, it would take a week to get the kind of in-depth discussion that's already presented there. Good luck!

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 10:57:37 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FreeAmerican:
Charging_Handle,

Thanks for the info... I'll scrap the Hydra shocks! In my 9mm I've been using the Federal Hi-shock +P+ (supposed to be leo), 40 165 Golden Saber and .45 is the only other that I use Hydra shocks (230 gr)

Do you have a link to some data? I would like to look at some other cal.'s combos

Thanks
Ron



Anytime FreeAmerican. Glad I could be of some help to you. I will list my favorite 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP loads and then provide you some links to "credible" information that might be useful for you.

In 9mm my 3 favorite rounds are the Winchester Ranger 147 gr JHP, Winchester Ranger 127 gr +P+ JHP, and the Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P. Other loads that offer acceptable performance include Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP, Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP, Federal 124 gr Tactical and Federal 135 gr +P Tactical, Triton 115 gr +P JHP and Barnes 105 gr JHP (copper bullet).

For the .40 S&W, my favorites are the Speer Gold Dot and Winchester Ranger 180 gr JHP's, but there are other good loads also including the Remington 180 gr Golden Saber, Winchester 165 gr Ranger, and the Federal Tactical 165 and 180 gr JHP's. The Speer 155 gr Gold Dot is another good load.

And finally for the .45 ACP (pistols with 4" or longer barrels that is) my favorites are once again the Winchester Ranger 230 gr standard or +P versions, the 230 gr Speer Gold Dot. Some people like the 230 gr Remington Golden Saber but in this caliber as well, but I prefer the first 3 if I can get them.

The above loads all do extremely well, penetrating to at least 12", they reliably and robustly expand in bare gel and through 4 layer denim and they tend to feed well. While most also don't exhibit excessive muzzle flash, test to be sure before using if that is important to you.

Now for the links you requested, I will provide what I feel are some very good sites that have reliable info. Many include actual gel test results as well as discussions. And these are run by people who know what they are doing. Enjoy.

www.tacticalforums.com

www.ammolab.com

www.firearmstactical.com

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:36:24 PM EDT
oK..........I'm open minded but explain to me how a 148GRAIN wadcutter at standard velocity is going to out penetrate a 158gr Semi Wadcutter Hp +P. Even if the swchp clogs with material it is still a semi wadcutter with a sharp shoulder designed to cut holes just like the flat wadcutter.

So against lightly clothed antagonists it's going to likely perform as intended and mushroom while still achieving adiquate penetration. Against heavily clothed antagonists its going to act much as a LRN or FMJ but should give better penetration due to higher velocity and bullet weight.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:45:47 PM EDT
So from what i'm reading here, I should dump my 110 grn Fed HyrasShoks?
Shootin from a 3" mod 36.
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 3:59:29 PM EDT
Can yo upost a pic of your Mod36?
I just got a Mod36-1 thta was made in the'69-'70 time frame.
I'm curious to see what the flat cylinder latch looks like.

Is the barrel pinned?
Link Posted: 7/23/2003 5:55:17 PM EDT
I'll try to get pictures posted in the next couple days. Until then there's an example of what I'm talking about on Gunbroker.

www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=10517711

Mine has no model # stamped on it which I've been told dates it prior to 1958.
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 3:49:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:
oK..........I'm open minded but explain to me how a 148GRAIN wadcutter at standard velocity is going to out penetrate a 158gr Semi Wadcutter Hp +P. Even if the swchp clogs with material it is still a semi wadcutter with a sharp shoulder designed to cut holes just like the flat wadcutter.



Evidently the difference lies in how the bullets are made. While all .38 bullets are the same size at some point along the bullet, the major difference is that the wadcutter has the large frontal area. The FBI load has a bullet that tapers toward the tip. Considering cases where it doesn't expand, the bullet with the larger frontal area does the most damage. That's where the wadcutter shines.



So against lightly clothed antagonists it's going to likely perform as intended and mushroom while still achieving adiquate penetration. Against heavily clothed antagonists its going to act much as a LRN or FMJ but should give better penetration due to higher velocity and bullet weight.


Yes, the "FBI loads" should do as well as any bullet against lightly clothed individuals and that's why I carry it during warm months. Nobody here said that the wadcutter would penetrate better than the 158 gr HP +P's, but it penetrates in excess of 12" which is good enough. And in many cases it outpenetrates some of the lighter HP's.

If you shoot the 158 gr +P load better or as good as the 148 gr wadcutter, if you feel it will perform as well and if you aren't concerned about heavier clothing, then by all means carry it. One must feel good about what they carry and nobody can make that decision besides you. Me, I feel the FBI type loads may be superior when heavier clothing isn't a factor and I carry them. But when I feel I will most likely encounter layers of clothing, then I believe with all my heart based on good evidence that the 148 gr wadcutter offers superior performance and carry that. It's all up to the user.

-Charging Handle
Link Posted: 7/24/2003 1:30:31 PM EDT

....well and if you aren't concerned about heavier clothing, ....


<---------------
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 4:04:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SGB:

....well and if you aren't concerned about heavier clothing, ....


<---------------



A simple denim jean jacket worn over a cotton T-shirt will give a poorly sdesigned bullet the same problems as 4-layers of denim. The chest pockets of my jean jacket are closer to 6 layers...
Link Posted: 7/25/2003 3:54:59 PM EDT

A simple denim jean jacket worn over a cotton T-shirt will give a poorly sdesigned bullet the same problems as 4-layers of denim. The chest pockets of my jean jacket are closer to 6 layers...


Sure hope you dont get heat rash


Link Posted: 7/26/2003 12:22:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/26/2003 12:22:58 PM EDT by cyanide]
My wife has a air weight, we will shoot 6 + P every 6 months for her to get the feel of it, been doing it for 20 years no real wear, she shoots regular 38 for practice, PMC normally.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 12:32:08 PM EDT
Actually, I wish someone would produce Jim Cirillo's split wadcutters. A full profile, no-tapper wadcutter with a deep split across the front surface. Nice sharp cutting edge that expanded nicely. He got good results with them back in the 70's when all the NYPD was issuing was round nose lead.
Link Posted: 7/26/2003 7:29:12 PM EDT
Lumpy don't they put Hollow base wadcutters in backwards also for preformance gains ?????
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