Posted: 11/11/2006 8:53:29 PM EDT
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I've carried a J-frame off and on for a long time. I recently went to a 40 cal Sig 239. Now I'm thinking about going back to my J-frames. A few days ago I went to the range with a much younger shooter, He was carrying a 642 with the factory trigger. With the heavy factory DA pull, he hit 3 10" plates out of 5 shots at 25 yds. Now that is some pretty damn good shooting. Now I'm fairly good with a handgun but I'd have a hard time matching that. But I do feel comfortable with any Airweight J-frame as far as a carry gun. The only other pocket gun that I know that will match the accuracy of a short barreled S&W J-frame is the Beretta 21. Anybody else out there as big a fan of those guns as I am? |
| This is really a non issue. I doubt a 25yd shot would be justified in most cases. I also carry a J frame when I don't have my G23. As you know, most personal defense type shoots are close range. Most will be withing feet or even putting the gun in the other guys stomach and pulling the trigger. I feel confident that I can put shots in the center of mass at 10yds. Save the 25yd shooting for you fullsize gun at the range and don't worry about carrying the J frame, it will do the job if needed. |
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I have personally seen targets shot offhand at 50 yards with 2in. J frames that you simply would not believe, and have done decent work with several at that range myself. For a really good shooter 25yd. is no challenge at all with a tight J frame and the right ammo. I once, long ago, saw Bill Blankenship fire a 6 inch or thereabouts group from a Colt Detective Special 2", one handed and offhand at 100 yards! Now granted he was 6 time National Pistol Champ and a rep for Colt when he did that, but that should be an example of what these little guns are capable of in the right hands. The accuracy does not necessarily make up for other shortcomings as a one and only CCW handgun in my book...for backup they are great. |
J-Frames are capable of some amazing accuracy if the ammo is dialed-in. I've seen some shooters hit soft-ball sized targets at that distance. 
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Knowing what both the shooter & the gun can do at a distance may well save a life sometime, IMO. One cannot always predict or plan the shooting distance or the gun at the time. 
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yeah I bet if you stuck one in a ransom rest it'd be pretty impressive. I have never had much luck with my chief's special. It might be a tack driver theoretically but with no rear sight..... |
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My first Glock is a 17 and I can't hit shit with it. I've been shooting revolvers for yeasr and years, so I loaded up my 637 and danced a beer can from about 10 yards out to probably 20 yards before the gun was empty. I've gotta practice more with the Glock, but for now I'm carrying the J frame airweight. |
I don't disagree, but you better have a damn good reason for shooting someone that is 25yds away and not running to save you life. I don't like it but it's true
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I carry 125 +P in my J-frames, including the Airweights and Airlite. I'm definitely more accurate with the steel frames 36s. We used to take a freon jug or 5 gal can and set it up at 90 to 100 yds. Shooting target wadcutters at them, we did extremely well hitting it more times than we missed. But those were days that 500 rds a week were the norm. But to pop a balloon at 300 yds with one is almost unbelievable.  I've seen some shows with Bob Lunden on it and I won't disbelieve he can do it. But not me with my near sighted and bifocaled eyes! But you damn sure can't beat a nice Airweight for a me-to-you upclose pocket gun! 
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I switched to Speer's 135gr +P short barreled ammo for my 642. Plenty happy with it and the accuracy. While I prefer a larger .45, the J frame is so easy to carry that it travels with me more than any other gun. I suppose it's enough gun until it isn't.  I would really, really, really, really like to find an older S&W model 65 Lady Smith at a decent price! (yes, I'd bead blast the "Lady Smith" off the side). ETA yes, I know the 65 is a six shot K frame, I just want one. |
I'm 47 & I've had glasses since I was 15 or so. I've learned to compensate for my eyesight as I get older. Some easily done things to a gun such as a S&W-type hi-viz front sight might be able to help you? Even a plain old orange/red front sight can be a nice jump from the plain black. In addition, I've found that having my optometrist knowing shooters is a plus to me too!  A good pair of recent prescription glasses makes things as good as I physically can get on the eye end, on my behalf. Shooting out of 10-12 year old glasses ain't no disco.  Remember, as long as you can see your front sight clearly, you can hit your targets!
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I agree, with one huge caveat: a hostage situation. You have what is clearly a hostage situation & it's perhaps a thug who has already popped a few innocents already. Maybe like a bank robbery, maybe a kidnapping a kid. They're dragging someone off by the hair, you have a J-Frame & perhaps only a head shot for the next 3-5 seconds to save some lives. What do you do? Will this ever happen? Probably never in a million years to me. But, as the Marines taught me, shit happens when you least need it to. Knowing how my J-Frame can do at that range & (perhaps more importantly) what *I* can do with a J-Frame, may be what allows me to sleep at night later on if I take or don't take that shot & someone innocent dies. Having a CCL requires one to consider the lemon situations like this just as well as we think about the ones saving the nymphomaniac heiress who's driving a Ferreri from some street punks. Hell, think LA Bank robbery. You telling me that a handgun shot to the face wouldn't slow someone down?  If a J-Frame is all I have on me, then by-golly I owe myself to be good with it & make sure *I* can make it get me by if I need it to, IMO.
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I found one a couple of months ago. I also have a standard model 65 3 inch and a model 13 3 inch. The Ladysmith is heavier, with the enclosed ejector rod shroud. But it's my favorite of the three, the M13 is next, it's got a bobbed hammer and a very nice DA trigger pull. The standard M65 seems to be bone stock and the trigger just doesn't measure up to the other two. |
| I carry a J frame most of the time and I don't have an aprehension about it. Sure I can shoot my 1911 or my CZ better beyond 15 yards or so but with a little practice I can consistently put five rapid rounds into a four inch circle at ranges past 7 yards. They key is dry fire practice for proper trigger control. |
Not trying to sound like billy badass, but that's not really top-shelf shooting. I'd be disappointed in myself for missing 2 shots at 10" plates with any DA revolver, and I'm not a super duper pistol shot. |
With small boot grips, a short sighting radius, and a heavy double action trigger pull, it's pretty damn good. One thing about the J-frame snubs, you usually don't shoot them very often. Most people don't try to hit a steel plate at 25 yards with them. They're just concerned about hitting someone within 7 yards if need be. And at 25 yds, all 5 of his shots would have been in the kill zone. |
I agree that hitting a 10" steel plate with a snubby requires aim, but it's not by itself an impressive feat I guess. I can do it all day long...and I've got 8" steel plates in my back yard that get hit all the time, I'm speaking from experience. Even some of the newb shooters I've seen at my place can usually park their entire cylinder onto a 9" high railroad tie-plate with careful aim. Snap shooting? No, probably not but a slow pull they can do it. At 25 yards, your POA/POI is usually dead-on, and a 10" plate is bigger than your front blade sight, so hitting it requires nothing but holding the gun still while you pull through the D/A. If you're a flincher, or you're not used to D/A guns I guess it's hard. |
For a back up gun not being shot often, I'm impressed. Especially using 125 +Ps and not shot regularly. Of course, there are always better shots, especially on a key board! |
I doubt a 25yd shot would be justified in most cases.  If distance favors the trained individual ... the longer shot just "might" be more justified. And FWIW, the stats seem to support a slowly growing increase in shootout distances. NO FLAME; you make good points. I'm just not sure I agree with all of them.Stay safe |
I have to agree with Swingset and all he's said regarding shooting the 642 and its cousins. That said, I still carry my 1911 more often because it shoot it much better than the 642. How much better? If you can't believe Swingset and his J frame stories you wouldn't believe me if I told you. It's all about practice. Some people practice a lot and others don't. The ones who practice a lot don't find shooting tiny groups at great distances or acceptable groups at close ranges very fast all that difficult. I shoot on my lunch hour four times a week. How often do you shoot? Elmer Keith and Ed McGivern where some of my "heros" when I was a kid. I was too nieve to know the things they were doing weren't possible, so I tried to shoot like them. Now I will not even claim to be anywhere as good as either of those greats. But, through dilligent practice I've come to the conclusion if I had the wide open spaces to practice the shots they made and more time to practice I could maybe get as good as them. Kent |
I don't know any officer in LE work that shoots their back up gun as much as they do their duty weapon. The J-frames are chose for their concealability and power, not for their accuracy at 25 yards and 50 yards. If you are shooting for "tiny groups" or "acceptable groups" with a snub J-frame, you have more time and money and less use for a handgun than I do. I have no doubt that the young man I mentioned or even myself would have any difficulty dropping someone at 25 yds with our 2" J-frames. What difference does it make if it is a 5 shot 3" circular group or 12" vertical spread -all COM - at 25 yds? The 442, 642, 637, etc are meant for self-defense and not target shooting!
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I can't dissagree with anything you've said except for the items highlighted in red. Since I have no real way to compare the items in red I'll leave them alone. Will admit I probably have an advantage in time as I get an hour for lunch and work only 1.5 miles from the range. My post was mainly to comment on the two items highlighted in your original post shown below:
Kent |
That seems to be a condescending and arrogant statement. Attitudes show through written statements as well as in speech and demeanor. For what the Mdl 36 Chief Special and it's variants were intended for, they are outstandingly accurate carry pieces. That was what this whole thread is about, not about how great a shooter some one thinks they are. 
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I'm sorry. I was not intending to be condescending and arrogant. I was merely intending to back up Swingsets original statement. I was hopeing the "smilies" would indicate my less than serious nature. Again, sorry I didn't comunicate well. Kent |