Posted: 7/23/2006 8:06:37 AM EDT
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Ok. I know which way mags are supposed to go in the carrier. I've always done it the "wrong" way. I've argued the point with instructors everyone here would know. The best answer I've ever gotten (though no one will admit it), is "just because." So here's my argument: To get the hand in the proper position with traditional (bullets to the front) mag carry, you have to rotate your elbow a bit. Kind of like a cavalry draw. We all hate the cavalry draw with a pistol. Why not with the mag? I like my bullets pointing to the rear. I drop my hand naturally (like with a pistol) and simply grasp the mag with my finger along the front (back?) of the mag. Since I obviously lack the command of the English language to describe this well, here are explanatory pics: Ok. Gun empty. Oh teh noes!!1!!  Here's the traditional way to do it. (OK, maybe I exaggerated the chicken wing a bit, but you get the point.)  Below is the way I've always done it. Uncle Sam didn't mind, but mag changes didnt come up that often. "Name" instructors come undone when they see this.  I'm open to criticism. Let's have it. |
Well, you're right. I'm ain't changin'. I just want to know if there is a reason we teach untold rookies, gunschoolers, and beginning shooters the traditional way when I think it's demonstrably inferior. |
Why do you think it is inferior? and if it is demonstrably inferior, then there must be a good reason, more than just "it works better for me" I have found the traditional method of bullets forward feels more natural for the majority of shooters I encounter, and there is an advantage to being able to feel the bullets in the mag with your index finger. This tactile method works day and night, unlike simply looking at the mag. It also seems to align the magazine more easily in the hand for a "at the gun" tactical reload if you perform that kind of drill. So there are two reasons, but I will only recommend people switch to bullets forward when I see them get the magazine up to the gun and then have to spin it as they have done the "cavalry" draw on thier bullets to the back magazine. While under time duress this seems to be common. But once again, do whatever you want. |
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How do you get your finger down the front of the mag with bullets forward without "cavalrying" it. Note: First ever successful use of the word "cavalry" as a verb. Write it down.
I absolutely agree, and you get tactile confirmation with "my" way, also (check the pics). You just dont have to rotate the elbow to get there. |
Well, in answer to #1, you don't. This is the traditional, or accepted method of drawing the mag when bullets are forward, as you demonstrated in the picture, although you don't need to stick your elbow out that far. So yes, you "calvary" the mag. Well, you may be able to get your fingers up to the bullets on the non-traditional "reverse?" draw, or maybe "non-cavalrying" draw? However, all the people I have seen doing that tend to grasp the mag much like a doorknob and not get thier fingers into the proper position. But I can concede that it may be neutral if either draw is performed correctly. do you find that a tactical reload is easier one way versus the other? And why do you think it is superior? Other than that you find it more comfortable. edited for typos. |
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Well, with traditional, you have to rotate the mag up and twist it around the right way. With "my" way, you simply rotate the mag up. KISS, right? Index finger, appropriately indexing, is in the same place with both methods. Elbow, wrist never twisted. Drop the hand down naturally and grasp the mag, stick it in the gun. Not trying to change anyone's mind. I'm just looking for the reason that bullets forward is the "traditional" way. It seems clumsy in retrospect. |
After thinking about this a bit more, I started to wonder why most people seemed to naturally do the cavalry style draw, even thought they knew thier mags were bullets to the rear causing them to have to rotate the mag 180 degrees at the gun. When you are shooting it is if you are shaking hands with the gun, palms flat on the weapon, thumbs up. If you hold your left hand out in that manner and try to rotate it thumb towards the body as you would in a "cavalry" draw, you can rotate at least 180 degrees. However going outbound, as you must in your non-traditional draw, you can only rotate roughly 90 degrees. So unless you are unusually double jointed, leading with your thumb inward down to the mag in a cavalry draw will feel more natural and comfortable. Here is a little test, drop a round object in your pocket and see if you naturally have your thumb in towards your body or out away from your body when you grab it. I think the traditional mag draw is based upon many of the motions that we do every day. I also don't think twisting the mag up to the gun is a hinderance, as once again, anytime you pick something up to look at it, you are performing the same motion, mag in the gun is just a "show me whats in the palm of my hand" motion done many times every day. I find that grasping the mag correctly, with my index finger on the front spine of the magazine, and tactile feel of the bullets, is uncomfortable with bullets to the rear. This twists my forearm further than is natural, and my direct observations of others bears out that I am not the only one. Interesting question none the less, it helped me better understand what I was recommending to people. edited to add: The difference in draws also becomes more apparent as you move the spare magazine further back on the belt in a concealed situation. |
Well, I don't have a good picture hosting, so I will do the best I can to speak to the problem. If you have your hand on the gun, left hand is thumb up. If you just move the hand to the spare mag, then your index finger will be aligned along the side of the mag, thumb will be sticking out forward towards the target. To get your index finger along the front spine of the magazine, you must rotate your thumb outward like you are hitchhiking. This rotates your forearm, and to me is uncomfortable. Sorry for the confusion, the pcoket trick was intended to show thumb position not palm poition. Grasping someing with your thumb in toward your body, instead of out away from your body will be more comfortable. If you are grasping the mag with your thumb in, bullets rear, you are not getting your index finger on the spine of the mag to feel the bullets, it is placed on the side of the mag. And as you rotate the mag upyour palm goes forward, back of your hand towards you, this makes the traditional tactical reload motion impossible. |
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I do it the same way. I've never taken any classes yet so I figured that was the right way. Anyway it was the natural and easiest/quickest way for me. IMO its "better" more of a natural motion then the twisting. Btw when I stick my hand in my pocket I dont twist it or anything. 
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i see it working both ways use what works for you; i of course do it bullets forward as all i have to do is bend the elbow inward and not have to rotate the mag slightly to alighn bullets **just to clarify: the last pic of how you do it, the bullets are facing back, correct mr THR-thumper? |
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Can we get a better pic of how you hold the magazine out of the carrier and how your arm/the mag are oriented right before insertion? ETA: After trying it, the only way I can picture the "bullets back" way is to 1. Hold it like you show 2. Withdraw the magazine. At this point you turn your hand in such a way that the bullets are now pointing towards the ground, right? 3. You drive your arm forward and up while bending at the wrist to orient the mag for insertion, correct? 4. You insert the magazine. The way I just described seems to take your wrist to the limit of it's flexibility, and the grip on the mag is tenuous for me. Maybe I'm misunderstanding your method though. |
This is as good as I can explain it. No, no super wrist bend, no twist, no nothing. Grab the mag, lift it up and stick it straight into the gun.     If the bullets are to the front and the mag upside down (traditional), the magazine (and your arm) has to twist at some point on the way to the gun. Pardon the pit sweat, I've been outside and it's 100 friggin degrees out there. |
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Do you change your hand position in the time interval between pic 2 and 3? In the former your index is along the side, and in the latter it is more conventionally positioned along the front. I think the reason I had so much trouble before is because I was trying to do it without lowering the pistol, when you lower the pistol it is much easier. I like the conventional way personally, but if you can reload just as fast this way, I can't see anything wrong with it. When doing it the conventional way your forearm goes from being down to being up, I assume that's what you mean by "twisting your arm", but the motion seems very natural to me, different strokes I guess. |
No change at all. Look again. Oh well. I'm normally a traditional kind of guy. In this instance, though, I really do think my way's better. Drop hand, raise hand vs. drop hand, twist palm to rear, raise hand, twist palm back to center. KISS Like you said, different strokes. |
+1 I seems like your way of doing it is a more efficient use of movement. In my book that makes it the better. |
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I always keep my pistol mags with the rounded portion facing forward (when on the mag pouch). When your hand reaches for the mag pouch, you should be able to go through the motions just by memory; your index should already be in the rounded end (front of the mag body) andf the index finger acts as a guide as you insert the magazine into the magwell. I don't see nothing wrong with your technique... Except for the raised pinky on the picture, which is a clear sign of "Uber-gayness" in your part, but... |
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One thing I'd say, is I always put my index finger running up and down the "front" of the mag. This acts as an aid to get the mag in the mag well properly (having your finger there makes you aware the orientation of the mag, where the front is, etc.). From your position, I would find this much more difficult, requiring you to twist your hand around uncomfortably. Looking at your picture, that index finger is not pointing straight up the front of the mag. That said, that's what I like to do, not what everyone else likes to do. Practice with it, do you fumble less with your system? Are you faster with your system? Then I'd roll with it. As long as YOU have made up your mind physically and mentally how you are going to do it. Gundraw |
I have tried (really worked on it) to have the mag in the "conventional - bullets fwd" and it just does not feel right. There is more movement and twisting necessary to load. I do it your way (bullets rearward) and it seems much smoother and more intuitive to me. |
sorry, mr thr-thumper--i guess you arnt the only one who "lack the command of the English language to describe this well, here are explanatory pics"  i basically do it the same way you described it in the 1st 2 pics (bullets forward), and its not my "elbow that bends inward", but my arm, sorry for the mis statement on my part i know you exagerated the "chicken winging" but i dont put my arm outwards, i hug it by my body, like when drawing my gun when i tried it bullets back, i seemed to have to rotate my wrist slightly to re-align the mag your second set of pics clarified the draw, and when i mimiced it, it can work for me! stick to what works for you, and you seem to have it down pat 
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| before taking any handgun classes, i carried mags bullets to the rear. many law enforcement instructors teach bullets forward, and theyre never wrong. i still carry mine to the rear, dont like the rotation. save yourself the time and dont get into dropping the mags to the ground or not. |
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I haven't read every reply in detail, but the way you are doing it below is using poor form: Your hand is twisted way too far clockwise, which is why your elbow is sticking out at that uncomfortable angle. You are needlessly contorted. Instead, your hand should fall naturally to a position with the index finger aligned exactly with the front of the mag. The base of the index finger is at the toe of the baseplate, and the rest of the finger follows the front of the mag/pouch. The thumb and middle finger fall either side of the mag body, and do most of the grasping (the thumb should NOT be wrapped around the back/spine of the mag, as you appear to do). The ring finger curves towards the back of the mag, but does less work. The little finger does almost nothing. I'll try to find a picture on the web to add to this post. Otherwise, I'll post my own pic. There is a reason why 100% of IPSC competitors use the technique I describe above - its faster and more reliable. I would encourage you to persist with it a little more. |
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I'm no pistol expert and have only taken a few handgun classes. With that said here's my take: I put mags in bullets to the rear when I started shooting because it seemed like the best way to do it. I then found out about bullets forward and that's the way I do it now. I think it's about economy of motion. It takes less effort to get the magazine out of the carrier and into the gun when they're carried bullets forward. In your second group of pictures you changed your grip on the magazine. When you were taking it out of your belt you had a funky grip on the mag, and by the time it made it into the gun you had the same grip on the magazine as you would if you were using bullets forward. So why not just start with the same grip that you'll end up with anyway? If it's not comfortable to you, then don't use it and stay with your method. But I think if you give bullets forward a fair try, you will like it. |
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There are a couple of reasons I prefer "bullets forward" carry: If you align your index finger with the "frontstrap" of the magazine, you can develop a muscle memory positioning the tip of your index finger toward your curled gun-hand pinky. This allows a repeatable index each time because it's easier to find one hand with the other than it is to mate two pieces of inanimate metal. The other reason I like it is because it gets your palm in a good position to seat the magazine without having any parts of your anatomy in the way. |
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The traditional way is naturally faster, due to the wrist being able to spring around, into position. People don't need to practice it often enough to gain the speed, just the muscle memory, which in turn the speed will follow. I believe that is why it is taught more often. Your way is simple but, a bit slower. If it works for you and you're fast enough, stick with it. |
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Good discussion. You did however spell com with a W turned upsidedown. From personal experience the M is probably underneath the fridge along with a combination of crayons, pens, pencils, a couple other missing letters, dust bunnies, pet hair and an assortment of Cheerios and other breakfast cereals and snack foods. Unless of course the dog chewed it up. Seydou |
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Where you carry your magazines might also play a part. I carry my spare mags toward the front of my body, not on the centerline of my left side. If you carry them that far back it increases the acrobatics involved in changing the mags. I have tried it both ways. I always have MORE troble with the mag backwards than with the more traditional setup. I don't know if this is because the setup is worse, or because I have so much muscle memory that I just can't do it the "wrong" way without thinking about it. |
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Not to pick your technique apart but here are some of the ways I've cut my reload times in half. First off your gun position is way too low... I've instructed alot of people that bring the gun down from the target to conduct their reload. The closer you can keep the guns position during reloading to that of when its engaging the target the better. Extra movement down from sight plain, during reload, or back up to sight plain equal more time. As for the magazine placement in your pouch the fastest way for me is bullet forward. I've tried both and I stuck with the advice and demonstration of the great Latham, Barnhart, Koenig to name a few. These guys are not professed to be ninja warriors but are in fact undeniable fast and accurate under stress. The fact is that we should steal their techniques and train on them. Bullet forward carry allows you to immediately index your forefinger along the lead edge of the magazine. Even in the dark under stress your left forefinger can automatically find your right pinky. This technique puts the magazine directly in line with the mag well to complete the reload. Again, your technique and the practice you put into it is what developes muscle memory which is what you'll revert to under stress. Just suggesting that the way I reload is the absolute best.... FOR ME ! You may have different results. Good Luck |
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I will add to what is on the Comp-Tac website that the bullet-forward magazine draw is almost identical to the way you draw a pistol and not at all like the "twist-draw" or "cavalry draw". I think that most shooters find it is the most efficient and natural method when done correctly, for what that's worth. I know you are asking about the magazine, but there is also a problem with the position of your handgun when you drop your depleted magazine. By laying the pistol over on the side before you drop the magazine, you are working against gravity. If you cock the muzzle up a hair and make the mag well more vertical (perpendicular to the ground) to drop the depleted magazine first and THEN lay the pistol over on its side for the reload, you can use gravity to free up the mag well faster (I don't know if you ever have to use your support hand to help extract the depleted magazine, but with some other guns you would probably have a problem getting the spent magazine out of the pistol). Brak |
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If it works for you, then do it. I can tell you however, I dont have to do nearly that obvious of a cant outward with my arm to get my magazine out and indexed correctly. In fact my elbow is almost against my ribs. I carry my mags further forward on my hip. The palm of my hand lands on top of the mag, with the magazine floorplate between the base of my index finger and the base of my thumb. My thumb and middle finger curl around the sides of the magazine and my index finger runs down the front spine. You might also be better served by a lower cut magazine pouch. |
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Yeah, Lump. As John_Wayne noted, position of the mag pouch has a lot to do with it. If you're wearing mags forward of the hip on a duty belt, "my" way wouldn't work quite as well. I actually keep my mags further back than shown in the pics because I usually conceal with an open cover shirt of some kind. Good discussion fellas, and thanks for the points. |
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THR, I noticed something in your picture series demonstrating your technique... You might try this: Hold you magazine like you are inserting it into your pistol (pic #3 in the series). Then, instead of puting it into the pistol, put the magazine back into your mag carrier without changing you grip on it. I bet you will find that it is more natural to put it into the carrier bullets forward. That might give you a better feel for the "bullets forward technique. Brak |
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I think your technique is an interesting change, and seems comfortable. The only thing I might point out is if you are trained to maintain your firing position (rather than dropping the gun down, or lowering and tilting to the outside), you will have to bend your wrist backwards in an awkward and uncomfortable way. $0.02, receipt included. |