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Posted: 1/30/2006 6:35:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 6:39:26 PM EDT by Carb850]
I currently have an HK USP Compact in 9mm. Great piece that I plan on keeping a long time but too bulky for what I want in a consealed carry piece, especially in summertime clothing. I'm not necessarily looking for a pocket gun but I do want something noticeable smaller than my HK. My requirements in the order of importance are;

1) Reliability - I want a proven design that I can depend on
2) US produced round (9mm, .380, 32, etc). Not interested in the 9x18mak
3) Small size
3) External Safety
4) Light weight

While I'm not looking to blow money I have no problems with saving for a top quality piece. Any suggestions?


(edit to add)
I would consider a wheel gun but I prefer auto pistols.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:40:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 10:08:37 AM EDT by phylodog]
The Kahr PM9 fits your needs well except it doesn't have an external safety. I have found that if I don't pull the trigger, it never goes off unexpectedly. They're great little pistols, and are very easy to conceal.

Edit: Here's a pic of mine

Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:41:29 PM EDT
Another vote for the Kahr, mine is the P9. Very nearly the ideal CCW gun.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:45:58 PM EDT
Glock 27. Very safe, very reliable.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:54:27 PM EDT
The Smith and Wesson J frames are a good carry gun. I carried a model 60 for years. A few weeks ago I picked up a 640-1 in 357. I'm pretty happy with them.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:03:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Warhawk:
Another vote for the Kahr, mine is the P9. Very nearly the ideal CCW gun.


+2 for Kahr PM9
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:07:35 PM EDT
The only "go anywhere" pistol I carry and can recommend is the Kel-Tec P3AT (.380).

I've carried it for 3+ years, and recomment the second generation (external extractor).

Just my $.02 - YMMV
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:15:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Carb850:
I currently have an HK USP Compact in 9mm. Great piece that I plan on keeping a long time but too bulky for what I want in a consealed carry piece, especially in summertime clothing.



I feel for you. The thing is too thick for sticking IWB. Have you tried a Hi Power? I have and I'll have to find yet another that conceals as well IWB and as comfortable. So far, Glock is second best, Sig worst, USPc in between these two, as far as bulkiness goes.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:13:13 PM EDT
+3 for the Kahr! If you can get past the external safty as a requirement, you won't be disapointed.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:14:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/30/2006 10:15:18 PM EDT by twonami]
+4 on the Kahr
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:54:07 AM EDT
You should take a look at the current crop of .357 snubbies.
Seriously underrated IMHO.

My Fav. non-auto

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:00:30 AM EDT
that external safety is going to be a problem. otherwise i would have suggested a sig p232. i have a friend who conceals a cz75 compact. those come in various varieties including safety but it is likely as big as what you have now.

oh ah ha i found one that might work very well--cz 2075 rami.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 6:14:01 AM EDT
+5 on the Kahr. I carry my PM9 every day.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 8:29:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 8:29:44 AM EDT by VBC]
+87 Kahr PM9
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:05:29 AM EDT
Hmm, sounds like we have a few votes for the Kahr I can honestly say I knew nothing about these until this thread. Every review I have found thus far gives the Kahr really high marks. on them so far is all positive. Would I be a fool to chose the MK9 over the PM9?

The Kahr is a front runner so far but I still want to entertain other suggestions. Also, like to see what my best choice would be that has an external safety. So far, only one I have heard is the CZ RAMI. Does it compare with the the Kahr PM9/MK9?

On the SIG P232, is it much smaller than my USP Compact? On paper it does not seem so but it looks a lot more compact in the pictures.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:10:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 9:12:06 AM EDT by _DR]
My new Kahr MK9 cracked the slide after just 50 rounds of +P for it's shakedown session..
Might have just been a fluke, but I didn't trust them after that.

Brought it back and traded up to a Sig P239 in .40. It handles +P all day long with no problem.
I don't shoot +P all the time for practice, but I feel a CCW should by able to handle at least 50 rounds of it.
The Kahrs are built too lightweight for me, just my opinion. The P239 is slim enough for IWB, being single stack. It may seem big, but once IWB it is very comfy.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:32:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By AKsRule:
You should take a look at the current crop of .357 snubbies.
Seriously underrated IMHO.

My Fav. non-auto

img.photobucket.com/albums/v503/AKsrule/TAURUS357L.jpg




+1 on that gun, its what I carry if I can't conceal a full size 1911
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:49:54 AM EDT
Glock 26. You can use 10, 12, 15, 17, 31 and 33 round mags.

Probably the most versatile handgun made.

_____________________


Link Posted: 1/31/2006 9:52:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 9:55:17 AM EDT by VBC]

Originally Posted By Carb850:
On the SIG P232, is it much smaller than my USP Compact? On paper it does not seem so but it looks a lot more compact in the pictures.



I have a Sig 232 stainless and the grip is the biggest thing on it. The slide and frame is slender which makes it easier to carry than most compact 9mms like the USP compact. Compact 9mms keep a lot of thickness in the slide to fit the trigger bar and breech lock that a .380 blowback design doesn't need. (Except for Kahr, which solved the slide thickness problem in breech lock pistols by using a patented sidestepped feed ramp) On the plus side, the grip on the 232 and pop-caliber .380 makes it very easy to point, shoot and control (quick and effortless follow up shots). I find the 232 to be a very accurate gun since blowback designs are fixed barrel and it's a thoroughbred Sig all the way. (Barrel is solid to the frame and not free-floating like in breech lock design (9mm on up) )

Much easier to shoot the Sig 232 accurately quickly than the Kahr PM9. Much easier to conceal the PM9 and there is the whole 9mm vs. .380 effectiveness issue. Just from backyard shooting, I find .380 hits a lot harder than people might think. But it's not quite 9mm.

I also have a Glock 29 (10mm) for CCW. That one is brick, even though it's a "compact" pistol. I only wear it outside the waistband in a good holster and gun belt.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:07:57 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:

Originally Posted By Carb850:
On the SIG P232, is it much smaller than my USP Compact? On paper it does not seem so but it looks a lot more compact in the pictures.



I have a Sig 232 stainless and the grip is the biggest thing on it. The slide and frame is slender which makes it easier to carry than most compact 9mms like the USP compact. Compact 9mms keep a lot of thickness in the slide to fit the trigger bar and breech lock that a .380 blowback design doesn't need. (Except for Kahr, which solved the slide thickness problem in breech lock pistols by using a patented sidestepped feed ramp) On the plus side, the grip on the 232 and pop-caliber .380 makes it very easy to point, shoot and control (quick and effortless follow up shots). I find the 232 to be a very accurate gun since blowback designs are fixed barrel and it's a thoroughbred Sig all the way. (Barrel is solid to the frame and not free-floating like in breech lock design (9mm on up) )

Much easier to shoot the Sig 232 accurately quickly than the Kahr PM9. Much easier to conceal the PM9 and there is the whole 9mm vs. .380 effectiveness issue. Just from backyard shooting, I find .380 hits a lot harder than people might think. But it's not quite 9mm.

I also have a Glock 29 (10mm) for CCW. That one is brick, even though it's a "compact" pistol. I only wear it outside the waistband in a good holster and gun belt.




I wonder how a good Hornady or Corbon +P .380 would work in the P232.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:12:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 11:16:02 AM EDT by _DR]
If money is no object, check out the Rohrbaugh.
The worlds smallest current production 9mm automatic (so they claim).

Expensive, but those I have spoken to who have one swear by it.


Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:28:16 AM EDT
i'll tell you what, it may not be what your looking for, but I carry a kel-tec p32 with a ten round mag in the summer. I wear snug fitting tank tops and t's in the summer, and this gun will dissappear in your belt line.

so far i've put only 80-100 .32 rounds thru it, both in holows and regular brass but absolutely no problems.

I got a buddy with the .80 version who's very happy with his as well, and they're both virtually the same size.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:45:21 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 11:49:15 AM EDT by VBC]

Originally Posted By _DR:

I wonder how a good Hornady or Corbon +P .380 would work in the P232.



I have tried the Corbon 90 grain +P and Federal Hydra-Shoks .380 in the 232. Haven't tried the Hornady round, but I hear it's just as good. The Corbons really kick and make a flash. Feels almost like shooting 9mm. The Federal Hydra-Shoks shoot really nice. They're the "low recoil" ammo and feel like a soft push with very little muzzle flash. Also very accurate. Golden saber also makes a .380 but never tried that one either. But I hear it's as good as any of them. Just because they shoot so nicely, I prefer the Hydra Shoks as carry ammo, since good shot placement will be even more so critical with a .380. However, the Sig 232 has pretty much been replaced by the Kahr PM9 for my small CCW gun needs.

With several hundred rounds of practice you can shoot the little PM9 about as good as a full sized gun. It's amazingly accurate once you get practiced with it. Put a Hogue Handall Jr. slip on grip on the PM9 and it'll handle even better. It's like it should have come with the Hogue grip.

Link Posted: 1/31/2006 11:54:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:

Originally Posted By _DR:

I wonder how a good Hornady or Corbon +P .380 would work in the P232.



I have tried the Corbon 90 grain +P and Federal Hydra-Shoks .380 in the 232. Haven't tried the Hornady round, but I hear it's just as good. The Corbons really kick and make a flash. Feels almost like shooting 9mm. The Federal Hydra-Shoks shoot really nice. They're the "low recoil" ammo and feel like a soft push with very little muzzle flash. Also very accurate. Golden saber also makes a .380 but never tried that one either. But I hear it's as good as any of them. Just because they shoot so nicely, I prefer the Hydra Shoks as carry ammo, since good shot placement will be even more so critical with a .380. However, the Sig 232 has pretty much been replaced by the Kahr PM9 for my small CCW gun needs.

With several hundred rounds of practice you can shoot the little PM9 about as good as a full sized gun. It's amazingly accurate once you get practiced with it. Put a Hogue Handall Jr. slip on grip on the PM9 and it'll handle even better. It's like it should have come with the Hogue grip.




I may have to try the P232 for CCW. I have come to love all things Sig over the years.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:32:15 PM EDT
The Kahr is a good CCW as long as you dont have to deal with the company for any warranty problem. Kahrs are fairly pricey. You may want to look into the Bersa Thunder. Small, reliable, extemely accurate, only 200 bucks.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:19:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By VBC:

Originally Posted By _DR:

I wonder how a good Hornady or Corbon +P .380 would work in the P232.



I have tried the Corbon 90 grain +P and Federal Hydra-Shoks .380 in the 232. Haven't tried the Hornady round, but I hear it's just as good. The Corbons really kick and make a flash. Feels almost like shooting 9mm. The Federal Hydra-Shoks shoot really nice. They're the "low recoil" ammo and feel like a soft push with very little muzzle flash. Also very accurate. Golden saber also makes a .380 but never tried that one either. But I hear it's as good as any of them. Just because they shoot so nicely, I prefer the Hydra Shoks as carry ammo, since good shot placement will be even more so critical with a .380. However, the Sig 232 has pretty much been replaced by the Kahr PM9 for my small CCW gun needs.

With several hundred rounds of practice you can shoot the little PM9 about as good as a full sized gun. It's amazingly accurate once you get practiced with it. Put a Hogue Handall Jr. slip on grip on the PM9 and it'll handle even better. It's like it should have come with the Hogue grip.




i had golden sabres in my p232. it isn't +p ammo but iirc there is no such thing as +p for the .380. but in general there was much more muzzle flip and recoil bite than with a full size 9mm. but that is due to the size and blowback function than a locked breach design. if you slap hogue grips on it then it will be much more comfortable to shoot. also i had the alloy slide version which is lighter than the stainless version and the extra weight for stainless might make it nicer as well.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 1:20:26 PM EDT
How come very few micro-sized handguns come with external safties? The beretta tomcat is really the only one i can think of off the top of my head. Taurus' "medium-frame" pistols are actually pretty small as well.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 3:00:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 3:03:08 PM EDT by NotJason]
I have been carrying the Kahr PM9 for over a year now with no problems. Shoot about 100 rounds through it every other week or so for practice. Only gripe was when I first got it the magazine release was easy to accidentally hit, but Kahr has since made a change in the release design and they replaced the part quickly free of charge.

Side note, I have a Tomcat too but don't care for it much.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:06:04 PM EDT
I recommend two models, because I own them, so that gives me first hand knowledge.

First, I bought my wife a Model 60 J Frame S&W 357. She is not a fan of semi-autos, doesn't like the fact that she has to pull the slide back to load a round in the chamber, much prefers revolvers. She doesn't like shooting the 357 ammo, but really likes shooting 38's in it. It is small, and fits in her purse nicely. It would fit in a belly bag just fine.

Second, for my small carry gun I got a PPK, made by S&W. It is small, reliable and accurate. Currently I have Remington Golden Sabers loaded in it, but I am going to try some Winchester Siver Tips and the Cor Bon DPX ammo to see if they are also reliable in feeding. Depending upon how they feed, I will probably pick the most accurate for carry purposes.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 4:16:26 PM EDT
1 vote for Kahr PM40. I love mine, but it was not without some growing problems during the break in. I called Dottie at Kakr for a new recoil spring and two broken magazines. Dottie was awsome and I had no trouble with Kahr customer service. After replacing the parts it's now 100% and I now trust my life to it.


Link Posted: 1/31/2006 7:48:53 PM EDT
Isn't Kahr coming out with a smaller .380 at SHOT?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:04:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 3:05:27 AM EDT by twonami]
I like snubbie revolvers but I can't comfortably IWB carry them. Sticks into my side too much.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:57:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
How come very few micro-sized handguns come with external safties? The beretta tomcat is really the only one i can think of off the top of my head. Taurus' "medium-frame" pistols are actually pretty small as well.



Because external safeties on a DAO gun are stupid and unnecessary. How many double action revolvers have external safeties? I know, a few odds ones do, but the overwhelming majority have none.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 5:20:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By fossil_fuel:
How come very few micro-sized handguns come with external safties? The beretta tomcat is really the only one i can think of off the top of my head. Taurus' "medium-frame" pistols are actually pretty small as well.



Because external safeties on a DAO gun are stupid and unnecessary. How many double action revolvers have external safeties? I know, a few odds ones do, but the overwhelming majority have none.



Why not have DA/SA gun with external safety?

The CZ 2075 RAMI is set up this way. However, I read one review that states its SA trigger pull is about 7lbs.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:40:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 6:41:30 AM EDT by u-baddog]
A 1911 guy at my work asked about a CCW, he wanted something smaller for summer. I put him on to the Kahr PM9 and Sig 232 380, Kel-Tec P3AT as my choices for what he descibed as him needs. I dont own any of the three but I did stay at a holiday in express last night.

He checked out some other pistols also, He did test firings on all three from friends or range employee's.

He bought a blued P232. He put around 500rd trouble frre rounds thru it before he stuck it on his belt.

He came in this morning and thanked me. I trust his opinion on many things so I thought I would pass it on.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:55:20 AM EDT
If you like HK have you thought about a P2000sk?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 8:01:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 22Hertz:
If you like HK have you thought about a P2000sk?



I have, I just do not know if it will be noticably smaller than my compact. Anyone have a picture of the two together?
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