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Posted: 12/12/2005 3:57:46 AM EDT
Can anybody who owns both give me a compare and contrast between these two triggers? I have a couple of Glocks but am considering getting a P2000 with the LEM trigger. I would like to know how the HK trigger feels (smoothness, length of pull, crispness of break, length of reset, etc.)?

I also have a SA XD so if someone finds it easier to compare the HK LEM to the SA XD trigger that would work too.

Thanks
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 10:40:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/12/2005 11:22:33 AM EDT by der_Buschmeistermann]
I have a USP45F with the LEM. I had it installed by HK. I have to say that I prefer it to the stock DA/SA set-up but my G21 still beats it. The initial trigger pull of the LEM is long but VERY light until resistance or SA-mode is felt. It's kind of like a DA/SA trigger with the DA removed - barely any spring tension. As you pull the trigger, the hammer swings back in unison with the trigger. Once resistance is met, the pressure to break the sear is about the same that you're used to on every trigger pull of your Glock, maybe a little crisper. The reset, however, seems to be a tad longer than on a Glock, but what I don't like is that if you aren't conscious of the reset "click", the trigger will move forward much more than on a Glock and the hammer will begin to drop. Also, the reset "click" on the HK is not as pronounced as the Glock's and is harder to hear and feel. I've heard that a lot of people like their LEM HK's. It's just that they take a while to get used to and master when transitioning from a Glock. One plus the LEM has over a Glock is second strike capability in the event of a hard primer - except that pull of the trigger will feel like about 16 lbs! In order to "recock" the LEM trigger, the slide has to be racked back. Personally, I like the Glock mechanism, especially with a 3.5 connector dropped-in. (Which I can do in two minutes at the range. I can't do that with my HK.)
Link Posted: 12/12/2005 5:53:57 PM EDT
Der_

Thanks for the reply. A little surprising to read considering how much those HK's cost. Considering how much more expensive they are, you would think they would be able to design a better DAO type trigger?

Anyway, thanks again.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 4:25:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/13/2005 4:27:04 AM EDT by der_Buschmeistermann]
cgv69,

They are over-engineered, precision weapons. HK's attention to detail is hard to beat in a production pistol. You think a P2000 or USP is expensive? I picked up a P7M8 for a good price a while ago but could not justify keeping it. It was a wonderfully built piece but I could shoot better with my second-hand G26! I sold it to a buddy and with the proceeds bought a new Remington 700 VS in .308, an Iron Brigade Armory mount and a good Leupold! Seeing now that they're no longer in production, I wish I had held onto it just as an investment. Anyway, it all depends on how you want to spend your money, right? Take care.
Link Posted: 12/13/2005 8:46:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By der_Buschmeistermann:
cgv69,

They are over-engineered, precision weapons. HK's attention to detail is hard to beat in a production pistol. You think a P2000 or USP is expensive? I picked up a P7M8 for a good price a while ago but could not justify keeping it. It was a wonderfully built piece but I could shoot better with my second-hand G26! I sold it to a buddy and with the proceeds bought a new Remington 700 VS in .308, an Iron Brigade Armory mount and a good Leupold! Seeing now that they're no longer in production, I wish I had held onto it just as an investment. Anyway, it all depends on how you want to spend your money, right? Take care.



der_

I don’t think there is any question that HK’s are expensive when you compare them to their direct competition (polymer framed defensive pistols such as Glock, XD, SigPro, Walter, S&W, etc.).

Are they worth it? Having never owned one, I can’t really say but it sure doesn’t seem like it? P2000s are about 40-50% more expensive then your typical Glock. Being the owner of 2 Glocks, I can tell you that they may not be the prettiest handguns out there but they are dead on reliable and more then accurate enough for their intended purpose assuming the shooter does his part. Between their ruggedness, reliability, finish and ease of maintenance, the Glock is a really great utility grade defensive pistol.

That said, I do have one major issue with the Glock. Their grip design is all wrong for my hand. It didn’t use to bother me but the more I shoot them, the more I hate the grip. I could modify the grips on my Glocks but that presents a number of issues and I’ve decided I want a 100% stock gun for my CC weapon. I don’t see Glock coming out with a Gen 4 (with replaceable grip inserts) anytime soon so I’ve been looking around at other options.

Without going into to much detail, I’ve gone through most of the alternatives and the HK P2000 LEM is one of the last few options I have for a suitable replacement.

The cost isn’t really the issue here. If I have to spend that kind of money in order to get a pistol that meets my requirements (ruggedness, reliability, etc), fits my hand and that I can shoot well, then so be it. That said, I do want to get my money's worth. The issue is, no dealers around me have any to check out in person so that I can form my own opinion. I’ve read mixed reviews of the LEM trigger (hence the reason I started this thread) and I was just trying to see if typically the people who do not like the LEM triggers are the same people who hate Glock triggers.

I was just looking to read other peoples thoughts on the LEM trigger. Thanks for sharing yours!
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:40:42 AM EDT
Mr CGV,

Very interesting question, and I thank you for posting it. You asked for comparisons between HK LEM and Glock triggers so here are my thoughts.

I own a G21 and a G30, and my wife owns a G26. The G21 and G30 have been worked on by TRGraham, a Glocksmith well known in the Texas parts. Both have 3.5 pound connectors and have super slick/smooth triggers. The 26 has the standard 5.5 pound connector but it's also been smoothed over by TR.

I also own an HK Compact .45 and my own copy of my duty weapon which is an HK Compact .40; all have the LEM trigger modules. The duty weapon (and my own exact copy) have the standard 8 pound LEM trigger. Actually, the trigger is technically listed as "7.5 - 8.5 pounds" but it comes out around 8. The Compact .45 also has the LEM trigger but with a 6.5 pound pull, and that trigger action has been smoothed by Tommy Thacker of Thacker Guns.

I like all of the above weapons, and all have advantages and disadvantages. The Glocks are dirt simple to maintain and are very accurate. The quality is very good and I would not hesitate to depend on them. As you know, the safety is in the trigger on the Glocks and after a while it begins to hurt my trigger finger. I have changed out the triggers to the smooth trigger and that does help a little, but not much. I find the Glocks, even after TRGraham did his magic, feel just a little "spongy." That's not a bad thing; it's just indigenious to the Glock trigger. The Glock reset is very definite and crisp.

The biggest downside of the Glocks is their size. The G21 is huge (and HEAVY when carrying high cap mags!), and the G30 is fat. It is about a quarter inch fatter than the HK, and believe it or not when carrying concealed it does indeed make a difference. Well, it does to me, anyway, and it also makes a difference to several of my carrying friends. The HKs just seem to feel better in the hand, but that's purely subjective. If the girth of the Glocks is not an issue for you, then that's terrific.

The HK is an extremely high quality weapon with many more parts than the Glock. This makes detail stripping problematic to say the least, and in fact detail stripping your HK will void your warrantee. Field stripping and cleaning on the HK, like the Glock, is very easy. There are detail stripping instructions available online for the standard SA/DA trigger but I've not seen detail stripping instructions for the LEM and I wouldn't dream of going beyond field stripping and cleaning without an HK armorer sitting next to me.

The LEM is an unusual trigger. It, like the Glock, is very consistent. It's the same trigger pull, all day, every day. As mentioned by others, it does have a long initial take-up which has little or any pull weight, and the LEM has a slightly longer reset. I do not find either to be problematic but again, this is purely subjective. I do not like my duty weapon's trigger pull as it's just too damn heavy for my tastes. Unfortunately, the agency didn't seek my opinion on trigger pulls (go figure!) so I have learned to live with my disappointment!!

However, the trigger pull on my customized HK Compact .45 is great! Tommy did a great job and although the Lyman electronic consistently says 6.5 pounds it feels more like 5 pounds. One caveat about the Compact .45 with the LEM, and this applies ONLY to the Compact .45 with the LEM, but they are prone to light hammer strikes (and subsequent misfires) if the trigger pull is lightened below the stock 6.5 pound factory springs. Tommy initially tried to go with the 5 pound springs and they didn't work in this particular model so we returned to the factory 6.5 pound springs and the problem disappeared. The reset is also crisp, but not quite as crisp as the Glock reset. I can tell you from personal experience that double taps are absolutely no problem with the HK LEM trigger.

I really like my Glocks and wouldn't dream of selling any of them. But the G21 sits in my safe and the G30 is in the nightstand lockbox. I'm a 1911 guy and my primary carry is a Kimber ProCDP 1911 (soon to be a Custom build Commander sized Caspian) with a 4.5 pound trigger. Nothing beats a 1911 trigger. But when I'm not carrying the 1911 I'm carrying my HK Compact .45 with the LEM.

I hope this information helps.

Mike





Link Posted: 12/19/2005 10:53:45 AM EDT
I know I like my G19 a lot better than the 9MM USP I had. However some guys like the saftey and second strike thing and of course they like HKs who doesnt they are nice firearms so it is worth the extra money to them. I prefer Glocks but the HKs are nice pistols and my USP was just as reliable as my Glock is.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:56:07 PM EDT
I think between the 2, I prefer the Glock trigger for speed of draw-fire. However, the HK trigger does allow for the 2nd strike, and (mine is DA/SA, not LEM) a good SA after the 1st DA (I'd never own a DAO semi, except Glock....even though some don't call it DAO, etc). If you want a pull that is the same every time, get the Glock, hands down, no questions. The trigger leaves a lot to be desired, but if you get used to it, it works very well. As you can tell, I hate DA, except on the 1st shot, because there is no reason, except that you have a difficult time transitioning between DA and SA, to have it. It slows follow up shots, and that right there will steer me clear of a true DAO trigger every time.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 4:06:20 AM EDT
Thanks for all the input guys,

I am surprised (well not really) that those of you with both prefer the Glock. It sounds like not only do you prefer the trigger but the firearm in general?

Let me ask this, how big is the difference between the two triggers (Glock vs. HK LEM) is there? What I'm asking is you have all expressed that you prefer the Glock trigger but in your opinion, is the difference night and day or more subtle then that?

Like I said above, I really like my Glocks as well I just wish they fit me better or there was a way to modify them without A. Grinding up the frame which potentially lowers it's value and voids the warranty and B. disqualifying it for use in the stock class in IDPA, GSSF, etc. type competitions


Originally Posted By fla556guy:
I'd never own a DAO semi, except Glock....even though some don't call it DAO, etc).



Unfortunately for me, I'm just the opposite. I am use to DAO type triggers so that is what I prefer to stick with. If I couldn't use a DAO, I would rather use an SA carried cocked and locked. I hate DA\SA triggers and would never consider carrying one. That's just my personal preference. All three have strengths and weaknesses and any of them are valid options assuming the proper training and practice.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:45:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/20/2005 5:46:32 AM EDT by M4arc]
USP and Glock owner checking in:

Since the others covered the trigger pulls/weights I don't have anything to add.

I've always been impressed with HK quality but I can't hit the broad side of a barn with my USP9f or USP9c. The only USP I shoot accurately is the USP45f for some reason. Quality wise the HK is awesome but is it worth the extra money? That's a tough call; in 9mm I'd say no but in 45 I'd say yes. For some reason I just don't like the 9mm HKs.

I'm waiting for the new HK45 and if it's going to deliver what I think it is that will be my new primary handgun and the Glocks will be spending a lot of time in the safe.

ETA: the P2000s showed a lot of promise but I could not get used to that trigger and decided in the end to get another Glock. I guess I'm more of a SA or GA type of guy.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:30:03 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 8:32:08 PM EDT
Sir,

A couple of points that you highlighted:

"Let me ask this, how big is the difference between the two triggers (Glock vs. HK LEM) is there? What I'm asking is you have all expressed that you prefer the Glock trigger but in your opinion, is the difference night and day or more subtle then that?"

It's a big difference, and then again it's subtle. Like the Glock, the LEM is DAO but as previously mentioned it has a longer take-up and a slightly longer reset. Also, I have no idea what type of connector you have on your Glocks, but the HK trigger pull weight will feel somewhere between the stock Glock and the Glock with a New York trigger. Would it be possible for you to find one near you and dry fire it? Perhaps at a gun show in your area?

"Like I said above, I really like my Glocks as well I just wish they fit me better or there was a way to modify them without A. Grinding up the frame which potentially lowers it's value and voids the warranty and B. disqualifying it for use in the stock class in IDPA, GSSF, etc. type competitions"

Fit and feel in a shooter's hand is completely subjective. There are many who feel extremely comfortable with the width of a Glock, and others who wouldn't touch anything wider than a single stack 1911.

You really , REALLY, need to find one locally and feel it in your hand to determine if it is a gun for you.

Mike
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 3:23:47 AM EDT
mbsigman -

I think you are correct. I will not be able to say if it's right for me until I can at least hold one and dry fire it. I went to a gun shop up in Ohio yesterday on my lunch break but they did not have any in stock. Next gun show is not until January so this is on hold until then. Actually I will probably not do anything until after the SHOT show.

The only thing that bothers me about the Glock grip is the finger grooves and hump in the back. While they are fatter then I think they need to be, that doesn't bother me. I will try to get my hands on a P2000 LEM but if it doesn't seem like it will work for me then I'm going to put away my other hand guns for a while and shoot nothing but my Glocks until I get re-accustomed to their grip.

Thanks everybody for the input
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