Posted: 11/17/2005 5:46:52 PM EDT
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Hopefully this has'nt been challenged in a while but here goes: Short and sweet. What is the biggest, badest, asskickinest throw down round in .40S&W? The gun is a G23. And where can I buy them in bulk? |
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The bulk boxes of gold-dots from ammoman.com are 'rejects' from a run where a very, very, very, very few rounds had bad primers, IIRC. Having said that the 180 gold dot and the 180 ranger-t are considered top-flight defense loads. Some time ago, I got a case of the 180-grain ranger-t for $150 shipped...... |
Do you mean to tell me that Ammoman sold you "rejects"?? Unbelievable!  Anyway, what mod.# for those Ranger T's? |
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Thanx for all of the advice but after doing a lot of searching here and on several other forums I have dwcided that the Federal HST 180 is the round I'm looking for. I am surprised that no one here really knows about this stuff. I'ts supposed to put the Ranger ammo to shame. Here are a couple of pics I swiped from another site: Bare gel upsets in .40 S&W. In order left to right: HST, Ranger, Rem Golder Saber   And .45 ACP 230gr +P Federal HST  I'm buying a few cases before these rounds are outlawed. |
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This is interesting. My department used the RA40SXT and currently use the RA40T. We have been less than impressed with the results in actual shootings. Yes, I know, shot placement is everything and there is no "magic" bullet, but we've had some pretty disappointing results with these rounds. Our union approached the department regarding these rounds with a suggestion of the lighter 155 and 165 rounds. The departments solution? The cheap route...the members should just do more dry fire practice. The rounds we carry are rated as great stoppers. Some of the more recent shootings where the round failed as follows, One trooper ended up getting cut up by a gentleman with a chainsaw after absorbing several rounds (I don't remember the exact round count - it was in the teens) The majority of the shots were good solid center mass shots. The bad guy expired on scene but not after going through a rage and hitting the trooper in the back and buttocks with the running chainsaw. In another shooting the individual had several rounds that penetrated his chest cavity from side to side. The ER Dr's remarks (by the way she was a good looking woman that HUNTS!!) remarked "What are you guys using? Full metal jackets? This guy should be dead, these rounds didn't even expand!" The guy lived. All involved officers were ok. The last shooting that I remember resulted in the death of Trooper Joseph Sepp. The bad guy took several rounds (once again I do not remember the exact round count, but it was in the teens) Most center mass...The bad guy ended up living but was in intensive care for quite a while. Trooper Sepp got a 44 magnum round in the head and left behind a young bride and children. Rest in peace Joe. In all the above shootings the persons that were shot were heavily intoxicated. The 40T rounds look good on paper, and I have to admit that the rounds pulled out of ballistic gel look real impressive. The ones that we've pulled out of bodies don't look as impressive. Perhaps I have a somewhat skeptical view of these rounds which may be unjustified. Just in case I have my 6520 beside me at all times loaded with 69 gr BTHP's. I don't even want to get into the stories about shooting wounded deer with the 40T rounds! A sparkless pry bar to the cranium seems to work just as good if not better. If it would be me, I'd go with a lighter round. |
the HSTs are some expensive rounds, and i have not found anyplace that sells em in bulk for good prices! when you find good prices on bulk, pls tell us! mr henny: what brand are those 69gr BTHPs? .40sw right? |
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1k for $320.00. Not bad. Streichers Ammoscam sells them for $300/1k but others have said his are first gen rejects. |
thanks for the hookup! those boxes of 50 9mm is not bad--i have mostly seen em go for $25 or more |
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The best 40 cal. JHP is the one you can afford to practice with. Shooting one type of ammo for practice and another for defense use has never seemed like a good idea to me. When you leave the range after firing several 100 rounds of your favorite practice ammo you really don't know if something has changed in your pistol or magazines that will affect the function of your pistol with your defense load. Here is a example of what I mean. I have a Glock 30 that I have shot about 3000 rds. of Remington 185 gr. JHP thru it. I reload my practice ammo, same bullet, velocity and dimensions as factory. One day at the range 2 of my magazines started to cause failures to feed 4 other mags worked fine. I loaded the 2 mags that caused the problems with UMC 230 gr. fmj the pistol functioned fine I loaded these 2 mags with my 185gr. reloads, failure to feed again.(I know what your thinking read on) I stripped the mags down, cleaned them and gave them the once over. I then loaded the mags with factory Remington 185 gr. JHP both mags failed to feed with the fatory JHP's. The point of all this? If I wasn't practicing with the same bullet configuration as my defense load I might have discovered this at the wrong time and place. my pistol worked fine with all mags the previous range outing. Your life,you decide. Smokem1 |
I sure would like to know what the source of your information is. The federal HST is pretty well-known, but I have yet to hear of it 'putting to shame' anything. edit: www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=78;t=001062#000000 |
Um.........no, they don't. Again, let's have those links. If the federal HST has suddenly vaulted itself to the top of the defense-ammo heap, I may buy some. If NOT, I'd hate for you to trust your life to a pretty picture.  |
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My first response was Ranger but that was when compared to first generation HST. There were problems with the first generation HST in which Ranger excelled - something about the round plugging up and failing to expand. Now there is a second generation (which I was unaware of). It appears to best the Ranger rounds in it's current iteration so I'll change my opinion. If you get a box of HST marked "Not for sale to LE" then it may be the first generation but there is rumor in that statement so it can't be confirmed that's why those boxes are marked as such. Ammoman was asked what generation HST he was selling and he basically replied that the ammo was fresh and he was not in control of what Federal was sending him. Kind of dodged the question, big shocker there. |
| I`m partial to Remington R40SW1 155gr. JHPs. It`s the load the US Border Patrol has had really great results with. They switched to a slightly milder Fed. load using the same bullet due to frame wear issues with their Beretta 96Ds. Since my primary carry gun is a little Kahr P-40 I`ll take the extra velocity of the Rem. load. Fired from my P-40 it penetrated about 16" of ballistic gellatin (covered in 4 layers of heavy denim) and expanded to .60"+. Not earth shaking but very respectable from a 3.5" barrel. It uses a std. JHP (Sierra?),nothing fancy BUT it comes in 50rd. boxes for less than the cost of 20rds. of the designer ammo so I can shoot a LOT of it and be 110% sure that it`s reliable and accurate in my guns. I`m not knocking the "premium" loads,I use Gold Dots,Hydrashoks etc. in other calibers but I`m happy with this load in .40. Marcus |
While the Remington ammo (R40SW1) was being used, I saw about 12-15 cracked frames out of 250 pistols. I cracked two frames and was on my third pistol before I got switched out to a HK. But the problem wasn't completely related to the ammo. Some of the newer pistols had a small change to the frame and that's where the cracks occured. 99% of the cracks came from the newer frames. The other thing about the Remington ammo is that it creates a lot of flash in low light. It's a bright yellow-orange ball about 12". The new Federal ammo (XM40SWB and the newer XM40HB) being issued is a slightly tamer, but the flash difference is considerable. It has a small 3", dull orange flash in low light. img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/Tomtx/40_Loads.jpg |
The pistol was a 96D Brigadier. Both of my cracked frames were marked "BP97". My last pistol, the earlier frame, was marked 'BP95". In the picture you can see where the frame is curved. The later ones have a 90 degree cut, and that's were the cracks happened. I wish I would have taken some pictures of the cracks, but I didn't think about it at the time. You can see them when they start by putting a drop oil on the corner of the frame, and wiping it off. Put a little pressure on the frame and the crack appears. img.photobucket.com/albums/v364/Tomtx/136_3642_1.jpg |
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If the federal HST expanded to a picture perfect 10" would you use it? There is more to it than expansion in bare gel. You need to also look at the penetration. There is no handgun round design out today that puts all the others to shame. You are full of shit for thinking so. Handguns are poor stoppers. Accepting that and using high quality ammo is all that you can do. |
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I was reading a copy of Handguns (Dec/Jan issue, pg 18) and the picture it showed of RAB9 expanded looked more like the HST round on the left (with larger petals) than the one in the middle. Perhaps the testing has been skewed to show both rounds in the most favorable light, wouldn't be the first time. |
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My vote goes to Hornady 180 gr XTP's. Factory stuff chrono's around 980 in my guns. 2nd choice is Remington Golden Saber 180's, mainly because they're available at the local fun shop. I wish the factories would load some 200 grain bullets for the .40. Both XTP and FMJ, going a modest 850 fps or so. That would be my 1st choice. Since they don't we're forced to settle with 180's. |
. Of course, living in AZ, I don't expect to encounter heavy winter clothing.