WHEN IS A PISTOL TOO SMALL? (Page 2 of 2)
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This is something I wrestle with as well My main carry guns change with the seasons but the now discontinued 3.1” Sub compact m&p 2.0, the bodyguard 2.0 and the j frame are out and ready for warm weather. The p30sk gets some love too. As far as printing goes Went to mens warehouse with my brother to get him a suit. I saw one I liked in the clearance section. Guy went to measure me and I said “ i need to go put something in my truck” he says “ just give the gun to your brother “ I pull the CSX in the alien gear iwb off, hand it to my brother and no one in the store noticed/ cared, even people coming in and walking past us. 90% of people are in their own little world and are unaware of what is going on around them. The other 10% are either criminals, cops or ar15.com lurkers. |
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If my finger can't fit into the trigger guard, or I can only get two fingers on the grip it's too small for me. (I have huge hands) |
The “Three Stupid” Rule: “Do not go to stupid places, with stupid people, and do stupid things”
Religion is a handy device for keeping the philosophically deficient in line.
Religion is a handy device for keeping the philosophically deficient in line.
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Its not the size, its the overall functionality. Was excited when the Ruger LCP came out. F***ing piece of $hit. Trigger sucked and it actually hurt to shoot and not accurate. Wife gets Sig P238 which is same size or slightly smaller. That is very accurate and fun to shoot. |
TBD
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Here's something no one ever talks about. And maybe it's because for most people it really doesn't matter. But I'm going to mention it because it matters to me, and maybe some of you can relate to this. One word "confidence". No one ever talks about the psychological aspect of fighting. Do you really think you can win? I'm 74 years old and weigh all of 150lbs. If I'm confronted by a viscious thug (or maybe TWO of them), 6', 180lbs and fifty years my junior, do I really want to pull out some teenie weenie little "weapon" and try to fight with it? In my mind and heart, do I REALLY think I can WIN with it? This is why I don't like tiny guns (in ANY chambering). The handgun I carry, I carry specifically because it inspires confidence. I carry it because I KNOW I can do serious damage with it. It's not a fashion statement. I don't carry it for "comfort". I carry it because I truly believe I can PREVAIL with it in a desperate fight. |
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Originally Posted By Coolio: Here's something no one ever talks about. And maybe it's because for most people it really doesn't matter. But I'm going to mention it because it matters to me, and maybe some of you can relate to this. One word "confidence". No one ever talks about the psychological aspect of fighting. Do you really think you can win? I'm 74 years old and weigh all of 150lbs. If I'm confronted by a viscious thug (or maybe TWO of them), 6', 180lbs and fifty years my junior, do I really want to pull out some teenie weenie little "weapon" and try to fight with it? In my mind and heart, do I REALLY think I can WIN with it? This is why I don't like tiny guns (in ANY chambering). The handgun I carry, I carry specifically because it inspires confidence. I carry it because I KNOW I can do serious damage with it. It's not a fashion statement. I don't carry it for "comfort". I carry it because I truly believe I can PREVAIL with it in a desperate fight. Excellent point! I'm early 30's, above average height, exercise 3-4 hours a week cardio plus resistance weight training. I'm healthy. I'm stronger than I've ever been in my life. And yet, I recently decided that I will be switching from a micro 9 to a compact for my primary carry gun and moving the micro 9 to my "deep conceal" gun because with the compact, I'm 99% confident that I can clear any malfunction even under duress. I am pretty sure with my Hellcat (as much as I like the gun-- which is a lot) depending on the malfunction the thing basically will go down in a high stress environment-- and because of the small size I suspect that is more likely to have a malfunction due to a less than ideal grip that may occur in such a situation. |
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Originally Posted By Coolio: Here's something no one ever talks about. And maybe it's because for most people it really doesn't matter. But I'm going to mention it because it matters to me, and maybe some of you can relate to this. One word "confidence". No one ever talks about the psychological aspect of fighting. Do you really think you can win? I'm 74 years old and weigh all of 150lbs. If I'm confronted by a viscious thug (or maybe TWO of them), 6', 180lbs and fifty years my junior, do I really want to pull out some teenie weenie little "weapon" and try to fight with it? In my mind and heart, do I REALLY think I can WIN with it? This is why I don't like tiny guns (in ANY chambering). The handgun I carry, I carry specifically because it inspires confidence. I carry it because I KNOW I can do serious damage with it. It's not a fashion statement. I don't carry it for "comfort". I carry it because I truly believe I can PREVAIL with it in a desperate fight. All very well said. I don't mind dressing around my gun, been doing it a long time. |
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I really don't like super-small 9mm handguns. Just not comfortable to shoot for me. I had a G27 that I retired, not just because the recoil but the size. Nowadays it's something G19-sized or maybe a full-sized with a shorter bbl like a G45. The G27 is at my son's house for when I visit him in AZ, but it's been replaced by an AREX Delta I don't include my P32 in the "too small" category for when I really need deep concealment. |
"An age of glory passed like a lightning flash. The mandate of heaven passed from you but you didn't see. Times change and power passes. It is the pity of the world."
Song dynasty poet
Song dynasty poet
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Yes. I went down the compact route for a while. The Sig P365sas and then also the p365Fuse. Over the last few years I find myself strapping on the HK USP full-size. Better control overall and it’s not that hard to conceal. Just bought the USP9 Expert to see how I like it. Going bigger. Not smaller. I do like how the manufacturers are cramming large capacity into tiny guns though. |
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| I have tried to like the Shield Plus and pistols of similar size and thickness or smaller, but I end up back with my compacts most of the time because they really don’t carry or print differently. For instance, my HK VP9SK is the same height as the CC9, but 1/4inch fatter. The bonus is I shoot the compacts far better and can handle them a little easier when I’m trying to be faster or I stress myself a little. I have a Kimber Micro 9 that gets a lot of use because it’s my pocket gun, and I can shoot it well enough for its purpose. It takes a little more conscious thought to shoot accurately at a faster speed, and mag changes will never be quick or have quick recovery. It’s a trade-off when I can’t really fit a gun on my belt. |
| Carried everything in LE from a Bauer .25 as last resort gun through .357 686. Had 9mm AMT backup, Taurus Millennium 9, and prob some other stuff i cant recall from 30+ years ago. The Sig 232 was the best small gun I carried off duty as far as accuracy, with the G26 and 640 Centennial being the best combo of effective caliber/accuracy in smaller guns. Find that sweet spot. I would go for a .380 if I really had accuracy issues with larger calibers. Doesnt matter how effective the round is if you don't hit paydirt. |
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Originally Posted By mylifemygun: I am finding I do not shoot small handguns well. I like the convenience of carrying a small gun....but....when does size degrade accuracy to the point of making it worthless? I have been carrying a G43. But I shoot a G19 much better. Have any of you gone from small to medium or larger for this reason ? Small (really small) handguns are for very niche, deep concealment situations where one hopes to have and not need. I carried a NAA Mini .22LR revolver when I was in South America on a mission where we traveled to Lima, Peru / Quito, Ecuador monthly. We couldn’t carry our issued sidearms an while we didn’t have to go through metal detectors, I was a little paranoid and the NAA was essentially a throw-away insurance policy and gave me a little more self-defense distance than a knife. Very deep concealment, not quite prison-pocket deep, but pretty close. My wife did some solo AT backpacking, counting grams and all, she carried her Kel-Tech P3AT (predecessor to Ruger’s LCP version). It was perfect for backpacking, but she hated shooting more than a few magazines through it. It was narrow and bit into the web of her shooting hand regardless of a supported two-hand hold. For me today? I keep my Kel-Tech P32 for really deep concealment and that’s as small as I would go. What’s kind of replaced that is the LCP Max where I actually like shooting that and it’s comfortable in my hand for several mags. Originally Posted By mimibeardsley: As far as printing goes 90% of people are in their own little world and are unaware of what is going on around them. The other 10% are either criminals, cops or ar15.com lurkers. Truth. I don’t care about printing as much as I used to. Hell, I don’t mind my shirt riding up and exposing my CCW. Nobody notices and the 0.87% that do notice, simply don’t care. I still prefer concealed carry, but I’m far less concerned about a little printing. ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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For awhile I stepped down to a Remington RM380. Carried nice and flat. Was never thrilled at how long the trigger was and double taps were a bad joke. Accuracy at speed was miserable. Last straw was I needed to make a shot on a critter at about 20 yds. I had plenty of time but my accuracy wasn’t there. Retired the 380 that day. I’ve returned to a J-frame for my around the house casual carry and a full sized for ‘going to town’ carry. The j-frame I shoot quite decent and as an alloy frame 🖼️ ts weight is lower than the 380. Confidence matters for peace of mind. |
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Truth. I don’t care about printing as much as I used to. Hell, I don’t mind my shirt riding up and exposing my CCW. Nobody notices and the 0.87% that do notice, simply don’t care. I still prefer concealed carry, but I’m far less concerned about a little printing. ROCK6 Originally Posted By ROCK6: Originally Posted By mimibeardsley: As far as printing goes 90% of people are in their own little world and are unaware of what is going on around them. The other 10% are either criminals, cops or ar15.com lurkers. Truth. I don’t care about printing as much as I used to. Hell, I don’t mind my shirt riding up and exposing my CCW. Nobody notices and the 0.87% that do notice, simply don’t care. I still prefer concealed carry, but I’m far less concerned about a little printing. ROCK6 As far as printing goes-- I find I get less printing somehow with a compact than a Hellcat Pro/P365XL size gun-- I wonder if that's due to the additional "keel" (I use a full-size holster for appendix) which helps keep the gun close to my body, the more "rounded" shape of the backstrap or if I just configured the compact's holster more aggressively in the first place and I need to adjust my micro 9 appendix holster. |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By ROCK6: Yeah, I could see that. I think it's often about the holster than it is the handgun, but a naked P365 can be pretty tiny with a good holster over a G19, but I totally get where fitment is more than handgun size... https://hosting.photobucket.com/3a5ba44e-72a5-4ded-b00a-39a4440c67c0/9fa541a8-4d80-4d1c-a930-8d9f52c1ca78.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds" target="_blank">https://hosting.photobucket.com/3a5ba44e-72a5-4ded-b00a-39a4440c67c0/9fa541a8-4d80-4d1c-a930-8d9f52c1ca78.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds https://hosting.photobucket.com/3a5ba44e-72a5-4ded-b00a-39a4440c67c0/69211175-a295-4e74-bc37-532ac86c4c67.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds" target="_blank">https://hosting.photobucket.com/3a5ba44e-72a5-4ded-b00a-39a4440c67c0/69211175-a295-4e74-bc37-532ac86c4c67.jpg?width=960&height=720&fit=bounds ROCK6 My Hellcat with the flush or pinky-extension 11 round magazine definitely conceals smaller than my compact, but it doesn't seem to play once I put the 15-round magazine in and get the same grip length. I'm using a Crossbreed Reckoning with the claw for the Hellcat and I think we have the more or less same holster design for our compacts. What brand are you using with your P365? |
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Recently going through this question myself. I have been a G19 G26 size person most of my life. I keep trying the G43 really like it for size and weight. I have been carrying then swearing off of them about 4 or 5 times now. Then winter comes dont shoot it (43) much and my first spring outing with the gun is pittiful. Snappy, recoil actually stings my hand, (duty 124+p) then flenching sets in about round 9 or 10. Then struggle bus rest of the day with it. Pick up my G19 or G26. Recoil is softer, not nearly the flinching problem, accuracy immediately returns. I have my last two G43s boxed up ready for sale. I'm sticking with G26 G19 size just for KISS, that seems to work for me. Just about anywhere I can carry a 43 the 26 will fit also. |
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I'm not lazy, I just really enjoy doing nothing.
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Originally Posted By Coolio: Here's something no one ever talks about. And maybe it's because for most people it really doesn't matter. But I'm going to mention it because it matters to me, and maybe some of you can relate to this. One word "confidence". No one ever talks about the psychological aspect of fighting. Do you really think you can win? I'm 74 years old and weigh all of 150lbs. If I'm confronted by a viscious thug (or maybe TWO of them), 6', 180lbs and fifty years my junior, do I really want to pull out some teenie weenie little "weapon" and try to fight with it? In my mind and heart, do I REALLY think I can WIN with it? This is why I don't like tiny guns (in ANY chambering). The handgun I carry, I carry specifically because it inspires confidence. I carry it because I KNOW I can do serious damage with it. It's not a fashion statement. I don't carry it for "comfort". I carry it because I truly believe I can PREVAIL with it in a desperate fight. Great point! I believe the 'confidence' factor applies to most tools as well as many other products we use in our day to day lives. |
I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you.
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Originally Posted By Cycolac: What is considered acceptable accuracy at what distance for a carry gun? There's lot of data, but nothing defnitive when it comes to civilian, defensive distances; so, this is where the conundrum comes in. Most mouse guns are very short range weapons. I'm fairly comfortable with my LCP Max out to about 15 yards, but that's about the limit for me. Most mouse gun training is realistically 5 yards and in. Just slightly larger, I'm very comfortable with my optic-mounted P365 9mm out to 50 yards and fairly confident out 100 yards. Extreme, but there's little sacrifice for that kind of CCW capability, even if you never need it. Other considerations along with "effective" range, is shot placement and shooting speed. No, you can't miss fast enough, but if the goal is to shoot until the threat is stopped, you need fast, accurate shots in kill-zone areas. We all think we're John Wick with fasht shot-timer reading on a flat, non-dynamic range, but add a few variables and many will struggle with keeping several rounds in the A-zone, even at shorter distances. I would surmise most think a defensive carry gun, you should be capable of quicly and accuractly engaging target-threats from arm-length to 25 yards. ROCK6 |
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants" - Thomas Jefferson
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Too small takes in a variety of factors. Size, weight, power, ability. I certainly shoot my 6" Ruger security six better than my 2" Taurus 605 with the same ammo. I still shoot the pocket cannon well enough. I love my keltec p32, but hate the p3at/ruger lcp. Right sized for cartridge. G43x vs G45, yeah, I shoot the larger gun better, but I shoot the smaller one well enough, I qualified expert ( 100% on half sized target ) per my agencies standards with both. Size vs carry ability vs shootability are always going to be the trade offs. One size does not fit all needs. At some point, that larger pistol that you shoot better is going to get left at home because its too large for the circumstances. Id rather have that p32 in a pocket holster, than nothing, because the g45 or g43x got left at home. |
Trusting your life to the benevolence of an armed criminal is not a strategy, it is stupid!
I wouldn't say this one is too small, but it is very unpleasant to shoot. That being said, it will do the job if you do your part, and is surprisingly accurate in my experience. Oddly enough, it fits and seats firmly in all my leather 1911 holsters, which is a neat bonus. I plan to de-horn the shit outta this thing and polish all the internals, which will hopefully make it slightly less unpleasant to shoot. I might put a trigger shoe on it, too. I got it cheap enough that I can afford to play around with it and see what I can come up with.
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An example of when a gun is too small, for deep cover backup I carry a Rohrbaugh 9mm. They are built like a Swiss watch, but 12.5 ounces in 9mm frankly HURTS! But it slides into my front pocket holster and no one can tell I’m packing. 
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"When trading bullets it is better to give than to receive" _____________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
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Originally Posted By PursuitSS: An example of when a gun is too small, for deep cover backup I carry a Rohrbaugh 9mm. They are built like a Swiss watch, but 12.5 ounces in 9mm frankly HURTS! But it slides into my front pocket holster and no one can tell I’m packing. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/98619/IMG_8538-3763897.png Rohrbaugh, this is the way. These are incredible, but expensive. Shooting 124 gr's is smooth easy shooting. And groups great at 25 yds, to my surprise. BUT... they are no longer made. They sold the design to Remington. The RM380. Remington did some nice updates, like a slide lock, and traditional mag release but only in .380. 
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Originally Posted By Sabre223: Rohrbaugh, this is the way. These are incredible, but expensive. Shooting 124 gr's is smooth easy shooting. And groups great at 25 yds, to my surprise. BUT... they are no longer made. They sold the design to Remington. The RM380. Remington did some nice updates, like a slide lock, and traditional mag release but only in .380. I purchased my first one NEW, my later Rohrbaugh’s were all purchased off of Gunbroker, usually there are several listed. My carry Rohrbaugh is in the 6,400 range (just before they sold and has all of the improvements) my first one was a 3 digit serial number. |
"When trading bullets it is better to give than to receive" _____________________
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell