Posted: 11/9/2016 4:53:27 PM EDT
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I bought an M&P 9. The trigger was the worst I've ever fired. I replaced it with an Apex Tactical flat face trigger. The Apex trigger is really nice, and worked well for the first 150 rounds. But it has started to fail to reset once or twice each magazine.
Where should I start looking for the problem? Yes, I did the install myself.  It came without instructions, had to use youtube.
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The trigger may need fitting on some forward surface to allow the drawbar to come fully forward of the sear.
The way the trigger resets is that the drawbar gets pushed to the right of the sear by the slide, then as the trigger moves forward of the sear, spring pressure will snap the trigger back over to the left and back in line with the sear. Something is preventing it, and I would say it's probably a surface on the trigger itself. |
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I bought an M&P 9. The trigger was the worst I've ever fired. I replaced it with an Apex Tactical flat face trigger. The Apex trigger is really nice, and worked well for the first 150 rounds. But it has started to fail to reset once or twice each magazine. Where should I start looking for the problem? Yes, I did the install myself. It came without instructions, had to use youtube.did you adjust for the sear ( on the trigger bar)? I bet you have not enough sear movement. Got a feeler gauge? |
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The trigger may need fitting on some forward surface to allow the drawbar to come fully forward of the sear. The way the trigger resets is that the drawbar gets pushed to the right of the sear by the slide, then as the trigger moves forward of the sear, spring pressure will snap the trigger back over to the left and back in line with the sear. Something is preventing it, and I would say it's probably a surface on the trigger itself. When I read this yesterday it was like Greek to me. After pulling the slide, I can see exactly what you explained. 1. When the trigger goes fully forward the draw bar hits the slide release. There is no way adjusting any surface on the trigger would allow it to go further forward. 2. I don't have a feeler gauge but I can see daylight between the drawbar and the front of the sear. It looks like plenty of room and I can't get it to not reset (snap back in line with the sear) with the slide off. 3. Each time it happened at the range, I felt like the trigger had come fully forward, it was just that nothing would happen when I pulled it the next time. To me this suggests that either the drawbar is not snapping back in line with the sear and is just going back and forth beside it, or the sear itself is not catching (cocking) the firing pin spring (striker?). Hope this makes sense, sorry I don't know all the technical terms. Thanks again for everybody's help. |
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did you adjust for the sear ( on the trigger bar)? I bet you have not enough sear movement. Got a feeler gauge? Quoted:
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I bought an M&P 9. The trigger was the worst I've ever fired. I replaced it with an Apex Tactical flat face trigger. The Apex trigger is really nice, and worked well for the first 150 rounds. But it has started to fail to reset once or twice each magazine. Where should I start looking for the problem? Yes, I did the install myself. It came without instructions, had to use youtube.did you adjust for the sear ( on the trigger bar)? I bet you have not enough sear movement. Got a feeler gauge? The back end of the trigger bar has a little curly tail where it activates the sear. Are you saying if I bent this tail I could get the sear to move more and get further out of the way of the striker? How would this help? Why would the problem only be once or twice per mag? |
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The back end of the trigger bar has a little curly tail where it activates the sear. Are you saying if I bent this tail I could get the sear to move more and get further out of the way of the striker? How would this help? Why would the problem only be once or twice per mag? Quoted:
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I bought an M&P 9. The trigger was the worst I've ever fired. I replaced it with an Apex Tactical flat face trigger. The Apex trigger is really nice, and worked well for the first 150 rounds. But it has started to fail to reset once or twice each magazine. Where should I start looking for the problem? Yes, I did the install myself. It came without instructions, had to use youtube.did you adjust for the sear ( on the trigger bar)? I bet you have not enough sear movement. Got a feeler gauge? The back end of the trigger bar has a little curly tail where it activates the sear. Are you saying if I bent this tail I could get the sear to move more and get further out of the way of the striker? How would this help? Why would the problem only be once or twice per mag? Yes, you do realize there are tolerances in machines, right? Big explosion moves things.....then they settle down, or move again, with another big explosion or similar. Just watch the vids and adjust the trigger bar and see how that works. Dont half ass do it. |
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Yes, you do realize there are tolerances in machines, right? Big explosion moves things.....then they settle down, or move again, with another big explosion or similar. Just watch the vids and adjust the trigger bar and see how that works. Dont half ass do it. Quoted:
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I bought an M&P 9. The trigger was the worst I've ever fired. I replaced it with an Apex Tactical flat face trigger. The Apex trigger is really nice, and worked well for the first 150 rounds. But it has started to fail to reset once or twice each magazine. Where should I start looking for the problem? Yes, I did the install myself. It came without instructions, had to use youtube.did you adjust for the sear ( on the trigger bar)? I bet you have not enough sear movement. Got a feeler gauge? The back end of the trigger bar has a little curly tail where it activates the sear. Are you saying if I bent this tail I could get the sear to move more and get further out of the way of the striker? How would this help? Why would the problem only be once or twice per mag? Yes, you do realize there are tolerances in machines, right? Big explosion moves things.....then they settle down, or move again, with another big explosion or similar. Just watch the vids and adjust the trigger bar and see how that works. Dont half ass do it. Pretty dicky for a tech thread. Thanks for posting the tolerance spec and link to the vid. I understood and asked a simple question. |
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It sounds to me like you need to close the sear loop just a tad.
The forward set sear kits work great, if you are comfortable opening/closing that sear loop. 95% of them are simply not "drop in", due to the wide tolerance range of the M&P; the FSS kits reduce a LOT of movement, which is great for the feel of the trigger, but can be tough for hitting the sweet spot. Good news is, thanks to Ken's detailed explanation of how these things work, it seems like you're visualizing how the guts work now...which is a must for tuning these properly. My guess is, in its current state, you still have quite a bit of overtravel. Closing the loop will move the break point AND the reset point further to the rear of the trigger travel. Closing it too much will result in the sear not dropping. Just a word of advice; you NEED some overtravel with the M&P. If you close the loop to the point where it barely drops then the trigger stops moving immediately, you will have issues. |
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It sounds to me like you need to close the sear loop just a tad. The forward set sear kits work great, if you are comfortable opening/closing that sear loop. 95% of them are simply not "drop in", due to the wide tolerance range of the M&P; the FSS kits reduce a LOT of movement, which is great for the feel of the trigger, but can be tough for hitting the sweet spot. Good news is, thanks to Ken's detailed explanation of how these things work, it seems like you're visualizing how the guts work now...which is a must for tuning these properly. My guess is, in its current state, you still have quite a bit of overtravel. Closing the loop will move the break point AND the reset point further to the rear of the trigger travel. Closing it too much will result in the sear not dropping. Just a word of advice; you NEED some overtravel with the M&P. If you close the loop to the point where it barely drops then the trigger stops moving immediately, you will have issues. I found this article that suggests OPENING the loop. I would have thought that closing it makes sense but there is a lot of distance/movement before the trigger bar contacts the sear, over 1/16". When the trigger is pulled all the way the sear is still a little proud of the slide, by opening the loop it will pivot the sear down all the way flush. Thanks again for all the help. https://welikeshooting.com/reviews/gadgets/apex-tactical-specialties-forward-set-sear-trigger-kit/ ------------"If the striker does not release when the trigger is pulled, The loop on the connector bar needs to be adjusted. This adjustment will tilt the sear more, allowing the striker to release. o accomplish the needed adjustment, the sear housing block will need to be removed. Once that is done, the gap in the connector bar loop is measured with a set of feeler gauges. Once you have your starting measurement (mine came in at .010?), use a small flat head screw driver to lift the loop up (increasing the gap size). I recommend adjusting in small increments from 0.002? to 0.005?. The function should be checked by reinstalling the sear housing block after each adjustment. Once the striker releases properly, it’s good-to-go. |
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With the slide on, and a bright enough flashlight, you should be able to peek under the slide from the rear to see if the sear has caught the striker or not. When the striker is forward (i.e. not caught by the sear), you can see the sear move as you pull the trigger.
Does it ever happen in dry fire? If so, this may be a useful test. Something else that may be occurring is that there may be enough tolerance stack between the drawbar and the sear that the drawbar loop just isn't consistently engaging the lobe of the sear. You can try bending the end of the drawbar over to the left a bit to help make contact more positive. Use a couple of small Crescent wrenches, smooth jaw pliers or something similar... one to hold the drawbar around the midpoint and another behind it to put a little more bend in the drawbar. This will also usually improve the "click" of the reset as well. The sear block limits how far the drawbar can move to the left, so no worries there. |
| Normally, I really hate Glocks, but I purchased a NIB generation 4 model 17 as an second duty gun a couple of years before I retired. I noticed a similar problem to what you are experiencing. During quarterly firearms qualifications (50 rd course of fire) I would experience one failure to reset in a string of firing 6 rounds. This would happen only one time during the 50 rd course of fire, but, would happen every time I qualified with it. I don't know what is causing it and I retired it to my in case of emergency, under the sink hidden gun. This just shows that Glock "Perfection" isn't any more "Perfect" than S&W. |
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Normally, I really hate Glocks, but I purchased a NIB generation 4 model 17 as an second duty gun a couple of years before I retired. I noticed a similar problem to what you are experiencing. During quarterly firearms qualifications (50 rd course of fire) I would experience one failure to reset in a string of firing 6 rounds. This would happen only one time during the 50 rd course of fire, but, would happen every time I qualified with it. I don't know what is causing it and I retired it to my in case of emergency, under the sink hidden gun. This just shows that Glock "Perfection" isn't any more "Perfect" than S&W. Respectfully, why haven't you taken advantage of Glock's phenomenal warranty service and let them look at it and fix it? They have outstanding CS. |
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Pretty dicky for a tech thread. Thanks for posting the tolerance spec and link to the vid. I understood and asked a simple question. Quoted:
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I bought an M&P 9. The trigger was the worst I've ever fired. I replaced it with an Apex Tactical flat face trigger. The Apex trigger is really nice, and worked well for the first 150 rounds. But it has started to fail to reset once or twice each magazine. Where should I start looking for the problem? Yes, I did the install myself. It came without instructions, had to use youtube.did you adjust for the sear ( on the trigger bar)? I bet you have not enough sear movement. Got a feeler gauge? The back end of the trigger bar has a little curly tail where it activates the sear. Are you saying if I bent this tail I could get the sear to move more and get further out of the way of the striker? How would this help? Why would the problem only be once or twice per mag? Yes, you do realize there are tolerances in machines, right? Big explosion moves things.....then they settle down, or move again, with another big explosion or similar. Just watch the vids and adjust the trigger bar and see how that works. Dont half ass do it. Pretty dicky for a tech thread. Thanks for posting the tolerance spec and link to the vid. I understood and asked a simple question. Sorry if you took that I was being it dick...the internets has no facial nor voice features. I think the gap is somewhere around 200 thousands,,, but I may be wrong... Here is the vid link I just installed the 2nd Apex in my CORE......Works like a champ, only the reset is not as pronounced as my 4.25". Everything works as expected. |
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SencoMan, I did dig a bit deeper into the vids.....I figured you were a bit frustrated and really looking for help. If you are not getting a rest, open the loop up a bit, DO NOT open it too much, a 1000 at a time. I hope you meant 1/1000. If I tell my machinist "a thousandths" he understand. If I told him "a thousand" he would look at me like I was nuts. Many of the folks here have NO machine experience. |
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I hope you meant 1/1000. If I tell my machinist "a thousandths" he understand. If I told him "a thousand" he would look at me like I was nuts. Many of the folks here have NO machine experience. Quoted:
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SencoMan, I did dig a bit deeper into the vids.....I figured you were a bit frustrated and really looking for help. If you are not getting a rest, open the loop up a bit, DO NOT open it too much, a 1000 at a time. I hope you meant 1/1000. If I tell my machinist "a thousandths" he understand. If I told him "a thousand" he would look at me like I was nuts. Many of the folks here have NO machine experience. true, I always assume |
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UPDATE
Yes, I was very frustrated. Thanks again everyone for the replies. I appreciate the vast knowledge of the members here, on guns and everything else. I emailed Apex explaining the reset isues. I was surprised to get a call the next day from Jenna. She asked me a bunch of questions, hoping that she could diagnose it over the phone. When nothing seemed to fit, she asked me to take pictures, which she would go over with the gunsmith. She followed up with an email listing specific pictures and various angles they would need. A few days after I sent the pictures I called to follow up. Jenna was busy but called back promptly. The picture that seemed to be most helpful was a pic of the extra (replaced) parts she had me take. There was a spring missing. There should have been a sear spring, the original. Since it was missing she had me check and the original was still installed. She said their spring is stronger and neccessary for the system to work. She verified my address and put one in the mail for me. I've only put two magazines through, but so far so good. Either they didn't have one in the package or I lost it during the install (more likely). Happy to report excellent customer service by Apex. Thanks again for everyone's help. |
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