Posted: 6/20/2012 7:38:16 AM EDT
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Looks interesting.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/foghorn/ria-introduces-first-production-22-tcm-firearm/ Discuss. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/foghorn/ria-introduces-first-production-22-tcm-firearm/
Saw one of these @ a show a couple of months back. Should be death on squirrels, & a lot cheaper than an FN FiveSeven. Gig 'em, backbencher |
| Held one in LGS this week. Uses a Para lower with thier wafer thin plastic hacked-up grips and the 'P' popped-out. Magazine is a Para P18 38 super mag (only get one in the box). Neat idea and a badass'd little round, but couldn't get excited about it, except I was looking for a full size 1911 in 9mm. Chose to pass it up. |
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I think a budget 5.7 is where this one finds it's home in the market. The best selling point is likely the 9mm barrel, oddly enough: it's hard to buy in to an oddball caliber that could be impossible to get before long. The 9mm is a huge safety net. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I fired the RIA .22 TCM 1911 at the range a month ago. It was very loud, but pretty easy shooting. It didn't have any problems through a couple boxes. It's an expensive range toy. People throw around the big velocity numbers on the .22 TCM, but the energy is still about that of a .22 Mag. It may work for vermin, but that's about it. |
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Quoted:
I fired the RIA .22 TCM 1911 at the range a month ago. It was very loud, but pretty easy shooting. It didn't have any problems through a couple boxes. It's an expensive range toy. People throw around the big velocity numbers on the .22 TCM, but the energy is still about that of a .22 Mag. It may work for vermin, but that's about it. .22 magnum out of a rifle or a pistol? If they are achieving .22 magnum rifle ballistics from the pistol that's a worthwhile achievement. |
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I fired the RIA .22 TCM 1911 at the range a month ago. It was very loud, but pretty easy shooting. It didn't have any problems through a couple boxes. It's an expensive range toy. People throw around the big velocity numbers on the .22 TCM, but the energy is still about that of a .22 Mag. It may work for vermin, but that's about it. .22 magnum out of a rifle or a pistol? If they are achieving .22 magnum rifle ballistics from the pistol that's a worthwhile achievement. From a rifle. The .22 TCM from a pistol(much as the 5.7x28mm from a pistol) has raw ballistics similar to that of the .22 WMR from a rifle. It is disingenuous comparison at best. Intentionally misleading and dismissive of whichever cartridge or weapon has been compared to the .22 WMR. I do not feel either the .22TCM or 5.7mm are currently suitable for general use as duty weapons. But only for lack of properly designed ammunition. Specifically the projectiles. This will eventually change. These cartridges are very likely the future of service pistols. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I fired the RIA .22 TCM 1911 at the range a month ago. It was very loud, but pretty easy shooting. It didn't have any problems through a couple boxes. It's an expensive range toy. People throw around the big velocity numbers on the .22 TCM, but the energy is still about that of a .22 Mag. It may work for vermin, but that's about it. .22 magnum out of a rifle or a pistol? If they are achieving .22 magnum rifle ballistics from the pistol that's a worthwhile achievement. From a rifle. The .22 TCM from a pistol(much as the 5.7x28mm from a pistol) has raw ballistics similar to that of the .22 WMR from a rifle. It is disingenuous comparison at best. Intentionally misleading and dismissive of whichever cartridge or weapon has been compared to the .22 WMR. I do not feel either the .22TCM or 5.7mm are currently suitable for general use as duty weapons. But only for lack of properly designed ammunition. Specifically the projectiles. This will eventually change. These cartridges are very likely the future of service pistols. 300 ft/lbs of energy does not a duty round make. Any bullet worthwhile will be banned for civilian sales. It will end up mostly ignored just like the 5.7 unless it is integrated into a weapon that brings something unique to the table, like the P90. At least the 5.7 approaches decent ballistics with an AP bullet. |
Data from the Armscor 2012 catalog and the CCI website. I'd say the benefit of the TCM and similar rounds, assuming they are reliable, is that they'd be more reliable in a handgun compared to a semi-auto 22 WMR handgun.
ETA: spelling |
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300 ft/lbs of energy does not a duty round make. Any bullet worthwhile will be banned for civilian sales. It will end up mostly ignored just like the 5.7 unless it is integrated into a weapon that brings something unique to the table, like the P90. At least the 5.7 approaches decent ballistics with an AP bullet. Why would a 5.7mm/.22TCM bullet designed to perform to the standards of today's duty JHPs be banned from civilian sales? 300fpe, eh? How much energy do service pistol loads produce? 9mm, 147gr @ 1000fps = 326fpe Regardless, energy is a red herring. The best performing pistol loads does not equal the highest energy loads for any given caliber. 9mm, 90gr @ 1500fps = 449fpe This load has 123fpe more. But you don't see many recommending 90 grain 9mm loads to anyone today. |
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Quoted:
300 ft/lbs of energy does not a duty round make. Any bullet worthwhile will be banned for civilian sales. It will end up mostly ignored just like the 5.7 unless it is integrated into a weapon that brings something unique to the table, like the P90. At least the 5.7 approaches decent ballistics with an AP bullet. I seem to recall the traitor MAJ Hasan killed a great many people at Fort Hood with the 5.7x28mm cartridge in the civilian loading. It would seem the non AP loading, at least against unarmored opponents, is at least adequate. We have now had 50 years of debate about the terminal effectiveness of high velocity small caliber bullets in the rifle world - it would appear we are about to repeat the same debate in pistols. Gig 'em, backbencher |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
300 ft/lbs of energy does not a duty round make. Any bullet worthwhile will be banned for civilian sales. It will end up mostly ignored just like the 5.7 unless it is integrated into a weapon that brings something unique to the table, like the P90. At least the 5.7 approaches decent ballistics with an AP bullet. I seem to recall the traitor MAJ Hasan killed a great many people at Fort Hood with the 5.7x28mm cartridge in the civilian loading. It would seem the non AP loading, at least against unarmored opponents, is at least adequate. We have now had 50 years of debate about the terminal effectiveness of high velocity small caliber bullets in the rifle world - it would appear we are about to repeat the same debate in pistols. There's a big difference between a lethal round (22 short) and a round that will stop an attacker (9mm, 45 ACP, 357 mag, 41 mag). There is also a significant difference in how rifle and handgun cartridges work. 40 grains at 2000 fps isn't fast enough yet. A 40 grain 223 (sold as a varmint round) is going 3700 fps. Now, if it were a 64 grain going 3000 fps or you were concerned with AP penetration from the handgun, it is a different story. Do some searching on DocGKR and read about terminal ballistics particular what he has to say about "small caliber pdw". |
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Quoted: Quoted: 300 ft/lbs of energy does not a duty round make. Any bullet worthwhile will be banned for civilian sales. It will end up mostly ignored just like the 5.7 unless it is integrated into a weapon that brings something unique to the table, like the P90. At least the 5.7 approaches decent ballistics with an AP bullet. Why would a 5.7mm/.22TCM bullet designed to perform to the standards of today's duty JHPs be banned from civilian sales? A JHP is going to make this round much worse at what it does. 300fpe, eh? How much energy do service pistol loads produce? And they produce it at much lower velocities. Regardless, energy is a red herring. The best performing pistol loads does not equal the highest energy loads for any given caliber. Energy compared to velocity is an important indication of performance and penetration. These low energy rounds dump all of their energy far too early when contacting a target because of the high velocity and low weight. |
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A JHP is going to make this round much worse at what it does. And they produce it at much lower velocities. These low energy rounds dump all of their energy far too early when contacting a target because of the high velocity and low weight. I did not say or imply that the answer is specifically a JHP bullet and velocity/energy ration is, as you say, an indication and not a definitive relationship. You are stuck on how things are. As I said, I do not think they are service ready cartridges today. They will be in the future. There is no doubt in my mind that give sufficient effort by the likes of ATK and Olin, a bullets which performs to the standards of today's duty JHPs is possible for these cartridges. Meaning a bullet which can preform within the FBI/IWBA standards. Such bullets maybe of jacket hollow point construction or they may be a bonded soft point, or a solid copper hollow point, or something else... |
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There's a big difference between a lethal round (22 short) and a round that will stop an attacker (9mm, 45 ACP, 357 mag, 41 mag). ... Do some searching on DocGKR and read about terminal ballistics particular what he has to say about "small caliber pdw". Absolutely. I do not believe DocGKR has stated "small caliber pdw" cartridges can not be made to perform, but simply that which have been tested thus far are not up to the standards. |
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Quoted: Quoted: There's a big difference between a lethal round (22 short) and a round that will stop an attacker (9mm, 45 ACP, 357 mag, 41 mag). ... Do some searching on DocGKR and read about terminal ballistics particular what he has to say about "small caliber pdw". Absolutely. I do not believe DocGKR has stated "small caliber pdw" cartridges can not be made to perform, but simply that which have been tested thus far are not up to the standards. And were only tested with AP FMJ ammunition. .22WMR can certainly easily penetrate 12", from a 2" barrel. I'd call into question the reliability of rimfire, but it still can provide the #1 thing needed, penetration.. To equate .22TCM or 5.7 to a .22WMR is a far cry. The fastest you can push any .22WMR from a pistol is around 1600 fps from the 28gr loading. The FSN has loadings of over 2300 fps.. |
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Quoted: I fired the RIA .22 TCM 1911 at the range a month ago. It was very loud, but pretty easy shooting. It didn't have any problems through a couple boxes. It's an expensive range toy. People throw around the big velocity numbers on the .22 TCM, but the energy is still about that of a .22 Mag. It may work for vermin, but that's about it. But come November, I'm sure CTD will add 100% markup and tout them as being on the verge of being banned.....  a 40gr .22WMR pistol round will barely make 160 ftlbs of energy. |
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Well here's my take on the round
(for what it's worth I am no operator, tactical anything, just your average guy who loves shooting and hunting) The 22 TCM might very well be my next centerfire handgun purchase and here are my reasons 1. You get 2 barrels 22 TCM (hunting round) and 9mm (HD round) 2. If I got a 22 TCM threaded and suppressed with a MRDS (Leupold Delta Point) I would use it as my truck carry gun for dispatching varmints when I come across them while in the truck 3. It would make a nice walk around hiking varmint round when you don't want to pack a rifle while hiking 4. low recoil + suppressor = good choice for beginning shooters after .22lr 5. It's different and I like odd ball things sometimes 
YMMV |
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I like the 22TCM concept and hope it does well on the market…if anything, it will give the 5.7mm a little competition. As a high-velocity, flat shooting bullet, it would be a great varmint gun for hunting or pest control. I deployed back to Fort Hood the weekend of the shooting and there’s no doubt that small, high-velocity bullets are lethal, I do think there’s room for improvement when it comes to “stopping” power or effects.
The biggest selling point for me is the 9mm barrel and ability to switch calibers; a big plus over the 5.7mm offerings. I’ve been thinking hard about a high-cap 1911 in 9mm and this would be just perfect with the 22TCM offering. I hope the 22TCM does well…there’s a niche market for these types of cartridges and competition is always healthy. ROCK6 |
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The platform that armscore has provided for .22 TCM allows
for 9mm, and even .38 super (with barrel) change. The mags are Para P18 for .38 super. Plus I think we are just seeing the 'basic' loading for this cartridge. The .223 case/web (this is what .22 TCM is based on) thickness should allow for much higher pressure loading. Bullet will be most likely the highest cost/limiting factor for this config. shooters with low upper body strength, and various hand/wrist injuries –– will find that this gun is extraordinary easy to slide. I think actually this is the only one that can play self-d role for people cannot slide back a 9mm semi-auto. I think this offer from armscore is a winner and will stick around. Plus an all steel gun with 1911 controls/trigger/grip angle, that can shoot two calibers bellow 600 $ price tag is just a right price point. Quoted:
I like the 22TCM concept and hope it does well on the market…if anything, it will give the 5.7mm a little competition. As a high-velocity, flat shooting bullet, it would be a great varmint gun for hunting or pest control. I deployed back to Fort Hood the weekend of the shooting and there’s no doubt that small, high-velocity bullets are lethal, I do think there’s room for improvement when it comes to “stopping” power or effects. The biggest selling point for me is the 9mm barrel and ability to switch calibers; a big plus over the 5.7mm offerings. I’ve been thinking hard about a high-cap 1911 in 9mm and this would be just perfect with the 22TCM offering. I hope the 22TCM does well…there’s a niche market for these types of cartridges and competition is always healthy. ROCK6 |
| Can we please get an asterisk when people post "5.7x28mm is = to 22WMR" or something? It confuses people and is incorrect. Shooting SS197 from a FiveseveN is still a lot better than 22WMR from a rifle. Plus we have the ability to purchase a number of high performance 5.7x28mm loads. If you want to say SS197 is = to 22WMR that's fine (even though it's still incorrect) but not all 5.7x28mm loads. That's the same thing as saying a Glock 19 sucks and only referencing WWB FMJ in your argument. |
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Do some searching on DocGKR and read about terminal ballistics particular what he has to say about "small caliber pdw". DocGKR only tested SS197, SS195, and SS190. That test is over a decade old. Elite Ammunition has tried to get him to test their loads (all of which outperform the LEO SS190) and he has refused. DocGKR has posted a lot of good information over the years but he is 100% biased when it comes to 5.7x28mm. If you want solid data on all the loads available for the 5.7x28mm weapons, look into Brassfetcher. He has no dog in this fight and claims S4M is on par with a quality JHP 45ACP. I'm not saying that it's a magic round. I'm not claiming it's better than 9mm in ever aspect. I'm just saying that it's a completely viable SD option when using proper loads. I know it's pros and cons and prepare for them. |
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Quoted:
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Do some searching on DocGKR and read about terminal ballistics particular what he has to say about "small caliber pdw". DocGKR only tested SS197, SS195, and SS190. That test is over a decade old. Elite Ammunition has tried to get him to test their loads (all of which outperform the LEO SS190) and he has refused. DocGKR has posted a lot of good information over the years but he is 100% biased when it comes to 5.7x28mm. If you want solid data on all the loads available for the 5.7x28mm weapons, look into Brassfetcher. He has no dog in this fight and claims S4M is on par with a quality JHP 45ACP. I'm not saying that it's a magic round. I'm not claiming it's better than 9mm in ever aspect. I'm just saying that it's a completely viable SD option when using proper loads. I know it's pros and cons and prepare for them. I didn't know DocGKR refused to retest. Interesting to know. The best written summary of results I could find was here http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=82043 I can't do decent searches currently, since work is running some maintenance stuff on my desktop. Any better summaries out there, that don't consist of a wall of Youtube videos? The EA ammo seems inconsistent. One result will be ~11 inches and then the next two will be acceptable, with generally three inches between best and worst. I'd like more consistency with 12"+ results in defense ammo. (That is, having 13" and 16" as your extremes is OK. 11" and 14" is problematic.) Maybe they need better projectiles? I don't see a standard deviation on the velocities. Also, on Zombie Hunters, I noticed someone talked to Armsco and their 22 TCM bullets are the same as their 22 magnum, which means they have basically no penetration. (Sorry, can't re-find the link due to search issue noted above.) The 22 TCM can't load the 5.56 bullets as they are too long. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Do some searching on DocGKR and read about terminal ballistics particular what he has to say about "small caliber pdw". DocGKR only tested SS197, SS195, and SS190. That test is over a decade old. Elite Ammunition has tried to get him to test their loads (all of which outperform the LEO SS190) and he has refused. DocGKR has posted a lot of good information over the years but he is 100% biased when it comes to 5.7x28mm. If you want solid data on all the loads available for the 5.7x28mm weapons, look into Brassfetcher. He has no dog in this fight and claims S4M is on par with a quality JHP 45ACP. I'm not saying that it's a magic round. I'm not claiming it's better than 9mm in ever aspect. I'm just saying that it's a completely viable SD option when using proper loads. I know it's pros and cons and prepare for them. IIRC Doc has only tested SS190.. |
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Quoted: Also, on Zombie Hunters, I noticed someone talked to Armsco and their 22 TCM bullets are the same as their 22 magnum, which means they have basically no penetration. (Sorry, can't re-find the link due to search issue noted above.) The 22 TCM can't load the 5.56 bullets as they are too long. SOmeone had mentioned the .22 JSPs that the .22TCM uses are old .22 bullets used in .22 Hornet loads.. Some have questioned at what weight range can be loaded in the .22TCM, and has not been answered. a 40gr lead .224" is a fairly short round. No one is clear whether short bullets are needed for max case capacity, so no one knows if this stuff can go hotter or not. |
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300 ft/lbs of energy does not a duty round make. Any bullet worthwhile will be banned for civilian sales. It will end up mostly ignored just like the 5.7 unless it is integrated into a weapon that brings something unique to the table, like the P90. At least the 5.7 approaches decent ballistics with an AP bullet. I seem to recall the traitor MAJ Hasan killed a great many people at Fort Hood with the 5.7x28mm cartridge in the civilian loading. It would seem the non AP loading, at least against unarmored opponents, is at least adequate. We have now had 50 years of debate about the terminal effectiveness of high velocity small caliber bullets in the rifle world - it would appear we are about to repeat the same debate in pistols. Gig 'em, backbencher You could also use a .22LR pistol to kill a cow in a pen if you wanted to. Not really all that difficult to kill a bunch of unarmed persons with anything if the victims don't have anything to protect themselves with. |
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The platform that armscore has provided for .22 TCM allows for 9mm, and even .38 super (with barrel) change. The mags are Para P18 for .38 super. 7.62mm Tokarev...  Also an alleged armor piercer. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29_4.htm |
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I'd get one to throw a 38 super barrel in it.
18 rounds of 38 super with a 1911 trigger and ergonomics. A poor man's 2011. Sure 9 mm +P is close to 38 super in velocity, but it'd be a cool piece to own/shoot nonetheless. edit: ooh ooh drop a 7.62 tokarev barrel from JG Sales in it! |
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The Secret Service is currently using the Five Seven extensively as are several LE agencies in the US.
As for the 38 Super issue I already have a gun like that. An Israeli Bul M-5 in 9x23mm. Uses the same P18 Para mags as the .22TCM, and I can get 18 rounds in the mag. Can shoot 100g Powerballs at 1600 FPS or 115 Cor-Bons at 1550 FPS. But I use it in USPSA and 3-gun. Bought it used for $850 with 3 mags as a Limited 10 custom. |
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The platform that armscore has provided for .22 TCM allows for 9mm, and even .38 super (with barrel) change. The mags are Para P18 for .38 super. 7.62mm Tokarev... A buddy of mine just built one with the new 7.62 barrels out now. He did it on a STI frame, so he has 20+ rounds loaded with 70 grainers going close to 1900 FPS. It is light recoiling and fun to shoot. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The platform that armscore has provided for .22 TCM allows for 9mm, and even .38 super (with barrel) change. The mags are Para P18 for .38 super. 7.62mm Tokarev... A buddy of mine just built one with the new 7.62 barrels out now. He did it on a STI frame, so he has 20+ rounds loaded with 70 grainers going close to 1900 FPS. It is light recoiling and fun to shoot. video of these 1900fps rounds? Seems really high for a 5" barrel. |