[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Race to the bottom (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/14/2012 6:39:35 AM EDT
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Im not trying to upset anyone but here goes.
Does anyone here think that all the new handguns coming out are sacrificing safety at the expense of trigger pull too much? With SFAs pretty much replacing DA/SA for most pistols, it seems that most manufacturers/shooters are making and looking for guns with no manual safeties and very light 4lb triggers. I think Walther is the best example. The P99 was basically a DA/SA striker fired pistol (with 3 trigger modes; how badass!) but it did not sell very well. Then Walther releases the PPQ which has a 4lb(?) trigger with a fully cocked striker and no manual safety which gets all kinds of good reviews. Im not saying that the PPQ is a deathtrap, but it is probably not the safest gun. "Glock people" are often the same way (im not bashing glock but we all know the people I am talking about). I have a friend that cant imagine shooting a stock glock trigger, and says that unless it is 4lbs he wont touch it. I know glocks dont have fully precocked strikers, but come on, its a 4lb trigger with no manual safeties. Depending on that cheesy trigger button is like carrying a 1911 with a loaded chamber, hammer back, safety off, but depending on the grip safety for protection from NDs (not the best comparison, but I hope you see my point). People always tell me that I am being paranoid, but I wont appendix carry any stiker fired guns, especially not ones with the light triggers that everyone is looking for these days. Im not trying to bash striker fired guns (I have an M&P that is nice, but I kept the stock trigger and dont carry it anyways). I think striker fired guns can have really great triggers like a glock with lonewolf parts, but does anyone agree with me that it seems the pistol market is on a race to the bottom in terms of triggers, that is focusing only one 1911s and striker fired pistols with no manual safties and light triggers at the expense of DA/SA triggers and DAO triggers like on revolvers/LEM/DAK, etc.? Flame away please |
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Im not trying to upset anyone but here goes. Does anyone here think that all the new handguns coming out are sacrificing safety at the expense of trigger pull too much? With SFAs pretty much replacing DA/SA for most pistols, it seems that most manufacturers/shooters are making and looking for guns with no manual safeties and very light 4lb triggers. I think Walther is the best example. The P99 was basically a DA/SA striker fired pistol (with 3 trigger modes; how badass!) but it did not sell very well. Then Walther releases the PPQ which has a 4lb(?) trigger with a fully cocked striker and no manual safety which gets all kinds of good reviews. Im not saying that the PPQ is a deathtrap, but it is probably not the safest gun. "Glock people" are often the same way (im not bashing glock but we all know the people I am talking about). I have a friend that cant imagine shooting a stock glock trigger, and says that unless it is 4lbs he wont touch it. I know glocks dont have fully precocked strikers, but come on, its a 4lb trigger with no manual safeties. Depending on that cheesy trigger button is like carrying a 1911 with a loaded chamber, hammer back, safety off, but depending on the grip safety for protection from NDs (not the best comparison, but I hope you see my point). People always tell me that I am being paranoid, but I wont appendix carry any striker fired guns, especially not ones with the light triggers that everyone is looking for these days. Im not trying to bash striker fired guns (I have an M&P that is nice, but I kept the stock trigger and dont carry it anyways). I think striker fired guns can have really great triggers like a glock with lonewolf parts, but does anyone agree with me that it seems the pistol market is on a race to the bottom in terms of triggers, that is focusing only one 1911s and striker fired pistols with no manual safeties and light triggers at the expense of DA/SA triggers and DAO triggers like on revolvers/LEM/DAK, etc.? Flame away please No flame here. People want everything "easy" today is what I think is going on. The second something is too difficult to do they bitch and moan and cry their eyes out to any and everybody who'll listen. Here's something I posted similar to yours: Trigger Rant 
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People always tell me that I am being paranoid, but I wont appendix carry any stiker fired guns, especially not ones with the light triggers that everyone is looking for these days. That's a reasonable precaution in my opinion, especially when the gun is basically one trigger press away from putting a round through your leg. |
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I dot worry too much about my PPS carry gun.
It has a light trigger from the factory as you mentioned with the PPQ. However it has the trigger safety that prevents something that just snagged the side of the trigger from setting it off. That coupled with a kydex holster that covers the trigger completely is safe enough for me. The rest is just trigger dicipline. |
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Im not trying to upset anyone but here goes. Does anyone here think that all the new handguns coming out are sacrificing safety at the expense of trigger pull too much? With SFAs pretty much replacing DA/SA for most pistols, it seems that most manufacturers/shooters are making and looking for guns with no manual safeties and very light 4lb triggers. I think Walther is the best example. The P99 was basically a DA/SA striker fired pistol (with 3 trigger modes; how badass!) but it did not sell very well. Then Walther releases the PPQ which has a 4lb(?) trigger with a fully cocked striker and no manual safety which gets all kinds of good reviews. Im not saying that the PPQ is a deathtrap, but it is probably not the safest gun. "Glock people" are often the same way (im not bashing glock but we all know the people I am talking about). I have a friend that cant imagine shooting a stock glock trigger, and says that unless it is 4lbs he wont touch it. I know glocks dont have fully precocked strikers, but come on, its a 4lb trigger with no manual safeties. Depending on that cheesy trigger button is like carrying a 1911 with a loaded chamber, hammer back, safety off, but depending on the grip safety for protection from NDs (not the best comparison, but I hope you see my point). People always tell me that I am being paranoid, but I wont appendix carry any stiker fired guns, especially not ones with the light triggers that everyone is looking for these days. Im not trying to bash striker fired guns (I have an M&P that is nice, but I kept the stock trigger and dont carry it anyways). I think striker fired guns can have really great triggers like a glock with lonewolf parts, but does anyone agree with me that it seems the pistol market is on a race to the bottom in terms of triggers, that is focusing only one 1911s and striker fired pistols with no manual safties and light triggers at the expense of DA/SA triggers and DAO triggers like on revolvers/LEM/DAK, etc.? Flame away please You will get no argument here. Other than the 1911 with just a grip saftey is still safer,at least two things have to happen for it to go off. |
| I agree with you relating to carry guns, but I think there is a distinct difference when talking competition. I totally agree that extra precautions should be taken when carrying a firearm, which is why the Clock that I carry is all stock and I have a holster that completely covers the trigger and takes some effort to get out. On the other hand, my match guns have the lighter connector on them and loose holsters so I can draw faster. |
| I'm one of those people who refuse to buy a handgun with a safety on it. I don't use them, so I don't want one on my pistol. My safety is my finger which doesn't touch the trigger until I'm ready to shoot something. As long as people follow this basic safety rule and don't shove a pistol in their pocket or down the front of their pants without a holster, the lack of a safety combined with a light trigger pull should be perfectly safe. Then again, there are a lot of dumb asses out there, but these people will probably find a way to shoot themselves no matter what safety device is on their gun... |
| The only issue I have with light triggers and no safety is during re-bolstering. Especially if it is a CCW piece that is worn with an over shirt or something. I would worry a loose piece of short could get tucked in the trigger and cause it to shoot when you put it back in the holster. |
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I shoot XDM's (go figure) because I wasn't comfortable re-holstering a Glock. I don't like a gun without safeties, unless it's a pocket pistol with a fairly long trigger Wait, wut? My wife's XD45 has a trigger that feels significantly lighter than our Glocks and the manual of arms is identical. What would cause an XD not to fire when a Glock would? |
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I'm one of those people who refuse to buy a handgun with a safety on it. I don't use them, so I don't want one on my pistol. My safety is my finger which doesn't touch the trigger until I'm ready to shoot something. As long as people follow this basic safety rule and don't shove a pistol in their pocket or down the front of their pants without a holster, the lack of a safety combined with a light trigger pull should be perfectly safe. Then again, there are a lot of dumb asses out there, but these people will probably find a way to shoot themselves no matter what safety device is on their gun... I know someone who used to feel the same way. That is until he he had an AD that that left a smoldering hole in his pants. Im not saying the same thing will happen too you,just that triggers can and will snag on things. |
| I find the triggers on most pistols to be quite bad in regards to feel and weight. I have accepted the fact along with the responsibility that all weapons are extremely dangerous. The amount of variety in pistols illustrates the many tastes of firearms enthusiast. |
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What would cause an XD not to fire when a Glock would? The grip safety. You hold it so your hand is not depressing the grip safety when you reholster. Only really an issue for retention holsters where the strap can get caught in the trigger guard. I was thinking about that but I always maintain a proper firing grip throughout the whole draw cycle. Even if you didn't, if you're* so distracted that you don't notice the added resistance of a thumb break inside the trigger guard, are you going to notice your hand depressing the grip safety? After all, you are pushing the gun in that direction, right? There will never be a shortage of people who want to use mechanical safeties to compensate for training shortcomings. * collective, general "you," not YOU, "you." |
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No stock Glock has a 4 lb trigger unless you've added a 3.5 lb connector. My Glocks are stock and break evenly at 5lbs 10 oz. I have no problem carrying a Glock in a quality IWB holster between 3-5 o'clock. Like you, I will not appendix carry it, but I won't even appendix carry a revolver with a 12 pound pull.
I do occassionaly pocket carry a Kahr CM9, but it has a 7lb trigger and long pull. I looked at the M&P shield a few weeks ago and dry fired it. Maybe it was just that particular gun I looked at, but I would not feel comfortable carrying it. It had easily half the travel of a Glock trigger and was much lighter, probably around 4lbs or so. I'd worry about reholstering that gun much more than my Glocks. |
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There is nothing unsafe about a stock Glock with a decent holster and a little training. If you are having trouble reholstering, please stop shopping for holsters and belts at Cabelas, Big 5, Bass Pro, and do a little reading.
If you feel a DA/SA makes a gun somehow more safe, you would be wrong. Lots of handling accidents happen because people do stupid things while loading/unloading. Keep your finger off the trigger until you want to destroy something. How hard is that? |
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What would cause an XD not to fire when a Glock would? The grip safety. You hold it so your hand is not depressing the grip safety when you reholster. Only really an issue for retention holsters where the strap can get caught in the trigger guard. I was thinking about that but I always maintain a proper firing grip throughout the whole draw cycle. Even if you didn't, if you're* so distracted that you don't notice the added resistance of a thumb break inside the trigger guard, are you going to notice your hand depressing the grip safety? After all, you are pushing the gun in that direction, right? There will never be a shortage of people who want to use mechanical safeties to compensate for training shortcomings. * collective, general "you," not YOU, "you." The only real safety is the one between your ears!! Keep your booger hook off the bang lever until you intend to shoot the damn gun!! (stole that from another post) IMO the only semi-legit worry about a light trigger is under stress it will become real, real, real light. |
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I do agree that people rush to put unnecessary gadgetry in their guns to fix imaginary problems.
I think we might disagree on the reasons for doing so. Personally, I believe that people do this as a crutch to address shortcomings in their marksmanship. Marksmanship, especially pistol marksmanship, requires a lot more effort than a lot of people are willing to expend. |
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Revolvers don't have safeties, just a DA trigger. They've been used successfully for many, many years –– think Colt SAA. 
As another poster noted, "keep your finger off the trigger until you've acquired your target and are ready to fire." Which may not be the best example to get your point across, since the manual of arms for a SAA without a modern hammer block is hammer down on an empty chamber. No way to get a "Glock Leg" with that carry mode. 
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all.
Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds.
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Revolvers don't have safeties, just a DA trigger. They've been used successfully for many, many years –– think Colt SAA.
As another poster noted, "keep your finger off the trigger until you've acquired your target and are ready to fire." Oh, I dont think safties are really necessary in all guns; most of my guns dont have safties. I like DA/SA guns with decokers only. I prefer to carry a revolver because it is easy to conceal, and the double action pull is a very good safety. My point was mainly that people are looking for guns with very light triggers and no realistic safties, the PPQ being the best example of this trend. Basically I think the PPQ is an abomination, and a sign of the times when people will sacrifice safety to an unreasonable extent to look good at the range. I am no fan of 1911s for other reasons, but they are safe IMO because even though they have a light trigger, they have an easy to use safety that I think is particularly well implemented. I just think that people with 4lb trigger pull SFA guns with no other safeties as a carry weapon are being foolish (its their own lives they are playing with, but come on, if you need a 4lb trigger pull to shoot well you need to practice more). I mean, a Glock has a fine factory trigger, and to need to lighten it is a sign that you probably should practice more. |
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Revolvers don't have safeties, just a DA trigger. They've been used successfully for many, many years –– think Colt SAA.
As another poster noted, "keep your finger off the trigger until you've acquired your target and are ready to fire." Oh, I dont think safties are really necessary in all guns; most of my guns dont have safties. I like DA/SA guns with decokers only. I prefer to carry a revolver because it is easy to conceal, and the double action pull is a very good safety. My point was mainly that people are looking for guns with very light triggers and no realistic safties, the PPQ being the best example of this trend. Basically I think the PPQ is an abomination, and a sign of the times when people will sacrifice safety to an unreasonable extent to look good at the range. I am no fan of 1911s for other reasons, but they are safe IMO because even though they have a light trigger, they have an easy to use safety that I think is particularly well implemented. I just think that people with 4lb trigger pull SFA guns with no other safeties as a carry weapon are being foolish (its their own lives they are playing with, but come on, if you need a 4lb trigger pull to shoot well you need to practice more). I mean, a Glock has a fine factory trigger, and to need to lighten it is a sign that you probably should practice more. Besides your finger, what is going to make a gun with a light trigger go off? I agree that the stock trigger on the Glock (4.5lbs in most locals) is perfectly fine for it's intended role. It's not a target pistol. But I also think that it is perfectly safe. Nothing, other than your finger, pulling the trigger directly back is going to set off a Glock, or a PPQ for that matter. What pre-cocked DAO defensive guns are being marketed with an extremely light trigger? The PPQ comes close, but I disagree that people buy these to look cool. People buy them because there is an unfortunate and inherent load of angst floating around Glocks and the people that refuse to use them, but cannot deny that they got it right.
In reality, this all comes down to carrying a suitable gun for the intended role, and training with it. A DA/SA is just as likely to bite you if you forget to decock. Lightweight target triggers belong on target guns. But there is absolutely no need to have 3 manual safeties, a combo lock, and a 9Lb DAO trigger with a 3" pull on a carry gun. |
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Who wants to practice more when a gun has a shitty trigger? Only masochists, that's who. We avoid what we dislike, if we can. I shoot for fun primarily, and to gain some self-defense skills secondarily. I've never owned a Glock that I would care to shoot much without at least a 3.5 connector installed. Same thing with the M&Ps. I'd rather just shoot something that's more pleasant to deal with. Then again, I'm not a cop or someone who is mandated to carry a certain pistol and who is forbidden from modifying it.
I don't have so much practice time available that I want to waste it fighting with a 6 or 7 pound trigger. 5 pounds is about all I'm willing to deal with. Any more than that and I'm going to be looking for a way around it. |
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Many of us don't always carry in a holster, you guys who want to carry a Glock (with a round chambered) in your coat pocket (with your car keys, pocket knife, mini mag lite, etc.) please continue on. Ummm... Do you not think any of those things can disengage a safety ? |
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all. Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds. I was not aware of this problem at all. I simply assumed that only a very small number of folks would disregard the deadly serious nature of carrying a firearm. We can't all afford to put as much ammo through our guns as we'd like but if you're not treating each range session as a learning opportunity, you're wasting money. On top of that, you should start developing free muscle memory by drawing and dry firing your handgun several hundred times before you fire a single round. ETA: I shouldn't have to say this, but doing your best De Niro in front of the mirror is NOT training. Watch Magpul or other respected handgun training videos or better yet, pony up the dough for a defensive pistol course and then SLOWLY practice your draw. It's better to be right than fast. Speed comes with repetition. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. |
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Many of us don't always carry in a holster, you guys who want to carry a Glock (with a round chambered) in your coat pocket (with your car keys, pocket knife, mini mag lite, etc.) please continue on. Ummm... Do you not think any of those things can disengage a safety ? When one of those things disengages the safety it can start working on the D/A trigger pull next.
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Many of us don't always carry in a holster, you guys who want to carry a Glock (with a round chambered) in your coat pocket (with your car keys, pocket knife, mini mag lite, etc.) please continue on. Ummm... Do you not think any of those things can disengage a safety ? When one of those things disengages the safety it can start working on the D/A trigger pull next.
Wait, are you saying that because you have a manual safety and a DA trigger that it's okay to just toss that heater in a pocket with "car keys, pocket knife, mini mag lite, etc."? |
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Many of us don't always carry in a holster, you guys who want to carry a Glock (with a round chambered) in your coat pocket (with your car keys, pocket knife, mini mag lite, etc.) please continue on. Ummm... Do you not think any of those things can disengage a safety ? When one of those things disengages the safety it can start working on the D/A trigger pull next. K. Holster prevents all that from happening. |
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all. Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds. This. 
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I'm puzzled here. Since when is a 4 lb trigger considered dangerously light? Maybe if you're foolish enough to carry without a holster but for a very long time the definition of very light was reserved for stuff in the sub 3.5 lb range. I realize we're talking mostly about the striker fired stuff but a trigger is a trigger. Use a quality holster, practice under as much stress as you can and don't be stupid.
Guess I'm officially a dinosaur. :( |
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Besides your finger, what is going to make a gun with a light trigger go off?
A Lanyard, Strap, Twig, etc...all kinds of things. I always LOOK a Glock into the holster and if its dark, sweep the holster with my weak hand first. It has happened before to other people and it will happen again. And the little trigger on the trigger is a reverse-drop safety to keep the pistol from cocking and firing if is is dropped on it's ass from a high place. |
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all. Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds. I was not aware of this problem at all. I simply assumed that only a very small number of folks would disregard the deadly serious nature of carrying a firearm. We can't all afford to put as much ammo through our guns as we'd like but if you're not treating each range session as a learning opportunity, you're wasting money. On top of that, you should start developing free muscle memory by drawing and dry firing your handgun several hundred times before you fire a single round. ETA: I shouldn't have to say this, but doing your best De Niro in front of the mirror is NOT training. Watch Magpul or other respected handgun training videos or better yet, pony up the dough for a defensive pistol course and then SLOWLY practice your draw. It's better to be right than fast. Speed comes with repetition. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Most ranges that I have been to do not allow drawing from concealment (or even a holster for that matter). People firing at static ranges usually pump magazine after magazine through their gun without any thought of practicing how they would actually use the gun. This is a generallization but I think that it is pretty close to the truth in most cases. I am guilty of this myself. Sure you could practice your draw and dry fire at home, but other than competition shooters I would bet that the actual percentage of shooters who spend a significant amount of time dry firing is small. |
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all. Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds. This. http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii123/geohans/IMG_0532.jpg Yes. 4 pounds of low-cap steel is the answer 
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The problem here is twofold and both relate to a lack of practice.
People don't want to practice disengaging an manual safety, so they decide that they don't need one and subscribe to the mantra that their trigger finger is their safety and no other is needed. Okay on the range, but out in the world, there are a lot of things that can snag on a trigger and do the same thing a finger would do (make gun go bang). The second problem is that people don't want to practice shooting enough to get a handle on trigger control, so they always want lighter. They blame poor shooting on a heavy trigger, so either swap parts or guns for something lighter, all in an attempt to make up for lousy marksmanship. At the end of the day though, I just gave up caring mostly. If your Glock with a 3.5 connector goes bang and puts a hole through your leg because you don't need a safety, need a light trigger, and didn't bother making sure that the path into the holster was clear, it's your leg, not mine. Sorry, but true. My bedside pistol is a Beretta 92A1 with X300. It's loaded with the safety on. I practice punching that safety off every time I start a drill at the range. It's an automatic response for me every time I intend to shoot the pistol. I've also practiced extensively with controlling the DA first shot and the reset for the subsequent SA shots. My other primary pistol is an HK P30. It's here for the day when reason prevails and we can CC in Illinois. It also has a thumb safety and DA/SA trigger, and I also have my practice time in on it's functions to the point that they too are automatic. Bottom line here, for me, is that practice overcomes all obstacles. And I'll throw one more little tidbit out there about trigger weight. Look at Jerry Miculek. He accomplished all those DA revolver speed shooting records with stock springs in his S&W's. I ain't Jerry, and never will be, but his success proves that you don't need a 2oz. trigger to shoot fast and get hits. |
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all. Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds. This. http://i263.photobucket.com/albums/ii123/geohans/IMG_0532.jpg Yes. 4 pounds of low-cap steel is the answer Good one! 
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The problem here is twofold and both relate to a lack of practice. People don't want to practice disengaging an manual safety, so they decide that they don't need one and subscribe to the mantra that their trigger finger is their safety and no other is needed. Okay on the range, but out in the world, there are a lot of things that can snag on a trigger and do the same thing a finger would do (make gun go bang). What, exactly, is floating around in the real world that can snag on the trigger and make the gun go bang that isn't present at the range? Bamboo slivers? Hentai tentacles? Kudzu vines? If folks can't safely holster their gun everyday at home then they can't do it at the range The second problem is that people don't want to practice shooting enough to get a handle on trigger control, so they always want lighter. They blame poor shooting on a heavy trigger, so either swap parts or guns for something lighter, all in an attempt to make up for lousy marksmanship. Some people may chase light triggers to improve their shooting. As long as they don't go too light or affect reliability, who cares. The fact is there is not a flood of Glock shooters out there regularly shooting themselves because the trigger was 5.2lbs instead of 6.5lbs. There are a few dummies who are unsafe and who follow unsafe practices. They shoot themselves with revolvers, SIGs, Berettas 1911s, XDs, Glocks and every gun imaginable. At the end of the day though, I just gave up caring mostly. If your Glock with a 3.5 connector goes bang and puts a hole through your leg because you don't need a safety, need a light trigger, and didn't bother making sure that the path into the holster was clear, it's your leg, not mine. Sorry, but true. I've been conceal carrying, competing, running IDPA shooters as a SO, instructing, and practicing with a Glock with the dreaded Minus or 3.5 connector for over 5 years. That's tens of thousands of reholsters over the years, with and without concealment garments. No holes in my legs or in any of my students or competitors legs. Bottom line here, for me, is that practice overcomes all obstacles. And I'll throw one more little tidbit out there about trigger weight. Look at Jerry Miculek. He accomplished all those DA revolver speed shooting records with stock springs in his S&W's. I ain't Jerry, and never will be, but his success proves that you don't need a 2oz. trigger to shoot fast and get hits. You really don't know what you are talking about. If you think that Miculek is a big fan of heavy stock springs then you don't know Miculek. His success is because he's a tremendous competitor, not because he's safer and shoots heavy stock springs. "Miculek S&W Revolver Spring Kit. K, L & N Frame. This kit includes a recontoured mainspring and reduced power trigger return spring for optimum trigger pull and fast trigger return. It is designed for competition and speed shooting and fits K, L, and N frame S&W revolvers. For best results, use Federal primers." http://www.bang-inc.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=7&zenid=1qu0tvirutl4mti5a7v67qc2p7 Gringop |
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The problem here is twofold and both relate to a lack of practice. People don't want to practice disengaging an manual safety, so they decide that they don't need one and subscribe to the mantra that their trigger finger is their safety and no other is needed. Okay on the range, but out in the world, there are a lot of things that can snag on a trigger and do the same thing a finger would do (make gun go bang). What, exactly, is floating around in the real world that can snag on the trigger and make the gun go bang that isn't present at the range? Bamboo slivers? Hentai tentacles? Kudzu vines? If folks can't safely holster their gun everyday at home then they can't do it at the range The second problem is that people don't want to practice shooting enough to get a handle on trigger control, so they always want lighter. They blame poor shooting on a heavy trigger, so either swap parts or guns for something lighter, all in an attempt to make up for lousy marksmanship. Some people may chase light triggers to improve their shooting. As long as they don't go too light or affect reliability, who cares. The fact is there is not a flood of Glock shooters out there regularly shooting themselves because the trigger was 5.2lbs instead of 6.5lbs. There are a few dummies who are unsafe and who follow unsafe practices. They shoot themselves with revolvers, SIGs, Berettas 1911s, XDs, Glocks and every gun imaginable. At the end of the day though, I just gave up caring mostly. If your Glock with a 3.5 connector goes bang and puts a hole through your leg because you don't need a safety, need a light trigger, and didn't bother making sure that the path into the holster was clear, it's your leg, not mine. Sorry, but true. I've been conceal carrying, competing, running IDPA shooters as a SO, instructing, and practicing with a Glock with the dreaded Minus or 3.5 connector for over 5 years. That's tens of thousands of reholsters over the years, with and without concealment garments. No holes in my legs or in any of my students or competitors legs. Bottom line here, for me, is that practice overcomes all obstacles. And I'll throw one more little tidbit out there about trigger weight. Look at Jerry Miculek. He accomplished all those DA revolver speed shooting records with stock springs in his S&W's. I ain't Jerry, and never will be, but his success proves that you don't need a 2oz. trigger to shoot fast and get hits. You really don't know what you are talking about. If you think that Miculek is a big fan of heavy stock springs then you don't know Miculek. His success is because he's a tremendous competitor, not because he's safer and shoots heavy stock springs. "Miculek S&W Revolver Spring Kit. K, L & N Frame. This kit includes a recontoured mainspring and reduced power trigger return spring for optimum trigger pull and fast trigger return. It is designed for competition and speed shooting and fits K, L, and N frame S&W revolvers. For best results, use Federal primers." http://www.bang-inc.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=7&zenid=1qu0tvirutl4mti5a7v67qc2p7 Gringop I've also read plenty that stated that Miculek used stock springs, albeit with smoother/polished contact surfaces on the moving fire control parts. Fact is, the man is far and away a better shot than 99.9% of shooters out there, and could outshoot that 99.9% with almost anything in his hands. This is related to training and practice, which was the point of my post. That spring kit doesn't make a DA Smith trigger 3.5 pounds either, it's still heavier than a 1911 trigger, and that still isn't the point. The point was practice overcomes obstacles, and that too many shooters want to substitute gadgets for that important practice. They want to say "I can't get hits because this trigger is too heavy" instead of "I need to work on becoming a better shooter." Re-read my original post carefully. I never said that everyone or anyone that uses light triggers and no manual safety is guaranteed to shoot themselves, and I'm very aware that morons will shoot themselves and other people negligently no matter what they are handed. I'm fully aware that no combo of safety's, trigger pull weight, or lack thereof is ever gonna be 100% effective at preventing ND's. Now let me give you a scenario. You get in a shooting, your hands are shaking, heart pounding, all that good stuff. You go to reholster and the baggy T-shirt that you wear to aid in concealment gets bound up, you start fiddling around trying to clear the shirt foul and BANG, you, or the shirt, just discharged the pistol. What about a retention strap on a holster? What about a combo of retention strap and concealment garment? Try the same scenario with my P30. You click the safety on and now you at least have a mechanical block to back you up. Keep in mind that I'm using you as a generic for anyone vs you as in you specifically. At the end of the day, carry what you want, I don't care. I'm posting my perspective and my experiences here, same as anyone does when they are online. I'm also fully aware that you will not change what you carry based on my perspective, just as I will not change me selections based purely on someone saying "I don't know what I'm talking about." |
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I agree with you completely OP. That is why I carry H&K LEM. Best of all worlds.
Light trigger break? Check. Short reset? Check. Long DA length initial pull? Check. No manual safety? Check. Hammer that I can put my thumb on during reholstering? Check. Always carry in a holster...regardless of what or how you are carrying. |
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Also, I would drop this little nugget here: Nobody gives prizes to the fellow who reholsters quickest. Cultivating a slow and deliberate reholster is the single best thing you can do to prevent ADs with striker fired pistols. Are you LE? They care if they have to cuff, chase, or go to the ground with someone. |
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Revolvers don't have safeties, just a DA trigger. They've been used successfully for many, many years –– think Colt SAA.
As another poster noted, "keep your finger off the trigger until you've acquired your target and are ready to fire." Oh, I dont think safties are really necessary in all guns; most of my guns dont have safties. I like DA/SA guns with decokers only. I prefer to carry a revolver because it is easy to conceal, and the double action pull is a very good safety. My point was mainly that people are looking for guns with very light triggers and no realistic safties, the PPQ being the best example of this trend. Basically I think the PPQ is an abomination, and a sign of the times when people will sacrifice safety to an unreasonable extent to look good at the range. I am no fan of 1911s for other reasons, but they are safe IMO because even though they have a light trigger, they have an easy to use safety that I think is particularly well implemented. I just think that people with 4lb trigger pull SFA guns with no other safeties as a carry weapon are being foolish (its their own lives they are playing with, but come on, if you need a 4lb trigger pull to shoot well you need to practice more). I mean, a Glock has a fine factory trigger, and to need to lighten it is a sign that you probably should practice more. Besides your finger, what is going to make a gun with a light trigger go off? I agree that the stock trigger on the Glock (4.5lbs in most locals) is perfectly fine for it's intended role. It's not a target pistol. But I also think that it is perfectly safe. Nothing, other than your finger, pulling the trigger directly back is going to set off a Glock, or a PPQ for that matter. What pre-cocked DAO defensive guns are being marketed with an extremely light trigger? The PPQ comes close, but I disagree that people buy these to look cool. People buy them because there is an unfortunate and inherent load of angst floating around Glocks and the people that refuse to use them, but cannot deny that they got it right.
In reality, this all comes down to carrying a suitable gun for the intended role, and training with it. A DA/SA is just as likely to bite you if you forget to decock. Lightweight target triggers belong on target guns. But there is absolutely no need to have 3 manual safeties, a combo lock, and a 9Lb DAO trigger with a 3" pull on a carry gun. While reholstering a Glock with a round in the chamber it's possible for the cords from a jacket to catch the trigger and as you push the pistol downward fire the pistol. Not saying it's something that happens a lot, but it has happened. |
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Also, I would drop this little nugget here: Nobody gives prizes to the fellow who reholsters quickest. Cultivating a slow and deliberate reholster is the single best thing you can do to prevent ADs with striker fired pistols. Are you LE? They care if they have to cuff, chase, or go to the ground with someone. There are times when LEOs need to secure their weapons quickly, and I doubt the adrenalin rush is going to be overridden by the thought of careful holstering, but for the 98% of us for whom this isn't an issue, it's a habit that we'd do well to adopt. |
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Most people (including me) do not put in enough practice with their carry gun. If it has a safety, they probably do not use it at the range when they do practice. If you use a safety when you carry, and you don't practice enough to make flipping the safety second nature, it isn't going to happen under stress. This is a recipe for disaster. Might as well not carry a gun at all. Or just carry an HK P7 and get the best of both worlds. I was not aware of this problem at all. I simply assumed that only a very small number of folks would disregard the deadly serious nature of carrying a firearm. We can't all afford to put as much ammo through our guns as we'd like but if you're not treating each range session as a learning opportunity, you're wasting money. On top of that, you should start developing free muscle memory by drawing and dry firing your handgun several hundred times before you fire a single round. ETA: I shouldn't have to say this, but doing your best De Niro in front of the mirror is NOT training. Watch Magpul or other respected handgun training videos or better yet, pony up the dough for a defensive pistol course and then SLOWLY practice your draw. It's better to be right than fast. Speed comes with repetition. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast. Most ranges that I have been to do not allow drawing from concealment (or even a holster for that matter). People firing at static ranges usually pump magazine after magazine through their gun without any thought of practicing how they would actually use the gun. This is a generallization but I think that it is pretty close to the truth in most cases. I am guilty of this myself. Sure you could practice your draw and dry fire at home, but other than competition shooters I would bet that the actual percentage of shooters who spend a significant amount of time dry firing is small. Don't patronize those ranges any more and be sure to write an email to the club president, shop owner, etc. politely explaining why you choose not to spend your money there. I practice draw and dry fire every couple days or so. I have no idea what percentage of other folks do this. ETA: Maybe we can get a little bit of an idea, though. This is entirely unscientific, of course, but it's something: http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_5_4/125686_.html&page=1 |
| As a member of the LEO community we hate safeties on our firearms. Where I work we carry glock 23 concealed 99% of the time in the past and are just now getting to a open carry policy. We draw from a concealed holster and re-holster all the time including in our monthly firearms practice. There have never been an accidental discharge due to something in a holster to my knowledge. I do not feel the glock trigger is too light at all. My 1911 trigger is light and needs a safety. To those not using a holster, that just sounds crazy IMHO, it does not mater what safeties you have I would never do this! |