Posted: 4/10/2011 2:47:26 PM EDT
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I’m not sure if this is in the right section, mods can move it if it isn’t. Sorry.
For some reason, I cannot shoot pistols for the life of me. Today, I went shooting with an MP45, Taurus PT92 and a Yugo M57. I was shooting at 10 paces at paper and my hits always seem to go in the 7 o-clock position. I remember I was having this issue on my several previous range sessions, and found this pistol chart to try and explain why shots are going low-left. 
I assumed I must have been gripping the gun tightly because I am very careful about the trigger squeeze (not jerking it). So, I practiced dry firing repeatedly (with MP45) to get a better feel of it and thought I was doing well. I watched several youtube videos about pistol shooting, including the Todd Jarrett one, and even bought the Magpul Pistol DVD to help give some more insight and learn the proper technique. I followed their thumbs forward grip religiously and practiced repeatedly. For revolvers, I watched a video Jerry Miculek had about proper revolver grip and practiced that as well. I go to the range today and guess what, they hit low left. AGAIN. WTF. I consult the pistol chart again, and yes, it’s either gripping or jerking the trigger. I then concentrate very hard on the trigger squeeze, take up the slack, and then slowly squeeze off. I managed to get a pretty decent (for me) 4 inch group, but again, low left. Hmm, maybe I’m holding the handgun too tightly. I loosen my grip slightly and then my shot group turns into a shotgun pattern. Ugh.. This happened with all 3 pistols, and ammo type didn’t seem to matter; always going low left. Interestingly, though, my dad brought his S&W model 19 (4inch) and 34 (2inch) and I did really well with them at the same distance. Whether using single or double action, I was able to hit around the center of where I aimed at, and even scored a nice 3 inch dead center group with the model 19 (in single action). I’m at a loss. I have no idea what I’m doing wrong and as far as I can tell, I’m doing everything the same way as the pros do it. No, I don’t expect to shoot extremely well just by watching some videos and I realize that comes with years and years of training, but I was hoping to improve somewhat on my pistol shooting. Any useful tips would be appreciated. |
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I am having the same challenge as you are, and went to the range today, as you did. Here's what I'm finding. When I keep my right arm really locked out rigidly, very stiff, elbow really locked, and use the other hand to support the pistol, but not gripping to hard I'm pulling it to the left, these problems are much less pronounced. I know it is a grip issue, for me. Why? Because I tried shooting my 1911, off hand, one handed, like bullseye shooters and guess what? I was getting pretty near dead center with most shots, shooting at the target at ten yards/thirty feet. Practice makes perfect, I guess. But I think my issue at this point is something to do with my two-handed grip. By the way, here's a video demonstrating the bullseye shooting I'm talking about: http://youtu.be/HdkUQ6OTt2k |
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Shooting low-left is very common for a right handed shooter.
A few things you can do: A. Pick one handgun and stick with it until you get it right. B. Get formal training. C. If you can't get the formal training you need to again, stick with one pistol, dry fire the hell out of it until you know the trigger intimately. That chart is correct if you are a right handed shooter . You are jerking the trigger. It's very common and you'll eventually break it with practice. |
IMO I think you are trying too hard and or concentrating too much on the trigger pull aspect alone. Don't "THINK" about the trigger pull just SHOOT. The trigger pull should all be done by muscle memory. When I shoot in competitions and when I think about my HK's first trigger pull, which is always in DA first, my first shot is horrible. When I don't think about the first DA trigger pull my first shot is either in the "0" or "-1" area of the target instead of a miss or a hit in the "-3" area of the target. 
Try shooting 3 shots in less than a second and see how you do.
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Oh yeah OP, I'm in the process of breaking myself of the same habit.
Dryfire practice is a big help. There is a Jeff Cooper video on youtube, sorry I don't know how to post a link, but it is easy to find. Just go to youtube search Jeff Cooper and look for the video that has a still picture of the Col. standing in front of the camera. (there aren't many Cooper vids there.) Anyway, in the video he elaborates on trigger control. He talks about how you want the trigger break to be a "surprise" every time. He talks about how waiting for the sights to be at that exact spot and being like, NOW! is totally incorrect. Which is what I always used to do. He can prob explain it better than me, but the video may help you. It helped me. Good luck BD |
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That chart is more of a guideline than a set in stone rule. this its your trigger press get formal trainin––it will help you best over anything +1 Your grip will only affect where your sights will fall after a shot, if your sights are lined up, then the only thing it could be is your trigger pull. Try the ball and dummy drill, as some people will dry fire fine, but then flinch when they know they are shooting live rounds. |
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That chart is more of a guideline than a set in stone rule. this its your trigger press get formal trainin––it will help you best over anything +1 Your grip will only affect where your sights will fall after a shot, if your sights are lined up, then the only thing it could be is your trigger pull. Try the ball and dummy drill, as some people will dry fire fine, but then flinch when they know they are shooting live rounds. I had to look up the ball and dummy drill. I have heard of the drill but didn't know the propper name. Sounds really helpful (maybe for you too OP), too bad I go to the range alone usually. I suppose I could have someone load up my mags (or do it myself) and mix them all up, before going to the range. I'll have to try this. I'll have to get more snap caps, GREAT  spend more money....does it ever end?
ETA; that Col. Cooper video is labled "Defensive Pistolcraft Tape Series" |
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Wow, thank you for all the advice!
So let me get this straight, my trigger control is what is actually sending my shots low-left and that the proper grip is what allows the gun to settle back to the target? I may need to rewatch those videos (  ) along with that Jeff Cooper one.
Regardless, it does seem to be a trigger issue that I need to work on. I’d love to join a formal training course but money is tight right now, but I will go one day. I like that ball and dummy drill (I had to look it up too) but I don’t have snap caps. Although, being a handloader, I suppose I could make my own by inserting bullets into empty unprimed cases, and then just mark them as being inert. As for shooting 3 rounds under 1 second, yeah… I’m not at that skill level yet. I’ve tried rapid fire just for fun before but my accuracy sure took a hit. Although, I’ll “try it” again just for the fun of it 
Thanks for the help |
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Here are my suggestions:
-Dry fire. -Get and use dummy rounds to help diagnose and cure your problem. -Instead of focusing on your trigger pressure, focus on your front sight and slowly squeeze. Keep telling yourself to focus on your front sight as your #1 priority. You should be able to call where the shot goes as long as you are focusing on the front sight. -Don't force the shot to go off, it should be a surprise. -Allow for your natural arc of movement while aiming instead of forcing the shot off only when things are aligned. Just focus on the front sight and slowly squeeze the trigger while you allow for the arc of movement. Your doing good if your shots are everywhere equally on the target. The tightness of the shot group will improve with practice. -TAKE TIME FOR EACH SHOT. Speed will come with practice. -If you're shooting the M&P, try adjusting the backstraps. The trigger reach can influence your shots. For some reason, a lot of shooters have problems with low left while shooting the M&P. Even though the medium backstrap fits my hand the best, the large size is best for my trigger reach so I shoot the most accurately with the large grip. Finally, I'd suggest spending the most time with the revolver with mouse fart wadcutter rounds at 25 yards with some bullseye targets. You will be forced to learn all the fundamental shooting skills if you want a nice group. Once you are able to call the shot (meaning knowing where the bullet hit when the gun goes off without looking at the target), you are doing better then most shooters and your group should reflect that. Then when you move on to the semi-auto's you will know exactly where you fault at as you can take the time to properly learn the gun. One last thing, the tip that helped me the most when I was bullseye shooting was allowing for the arc of movement. ETA: The pluses with the revolver is that it's cheaper to shoot, it forces you to shoot slower, and you don't need to buy dummy rounds. Just put a few rounds in the cylinder, give it a spin, close it up, and there you go. |
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except in a 22 you don't need snap caps. some experienced shooters are pretty good coaches others are not. try to seek out a good shooter for a coach/mentor. ball and dummy is excellent- the quality of smoothness of smith revolver triggers will put any combat auto trigger to shame this is likely contributing to your revolver success- just stick with the whell gun for now! you can ball and dummy drill the rev. easy because you just have someone else load it and hand it to you skipping some chambers-in a 22 using empty cases to prevent the rimfire firing pin from damaging the cylinder is needed- no so with centerfires.
trigger control with what I call combat triggers- mushy creepy long inconsistent- is difficult to master- do not get discouraged. another key- GET A 22! an inexpensive 22 like a buckmark or ruger standard auto- ammo cheap good triggers and will let you practice ALOT for very little cost. if feasible where you live, getting a pellet trap and a good quality pellet pistol that allows practice at home in a basement or garage is a good idea too. |
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While ideally you should take a training course (make sure the teacher is credible), as this is the fastest way to learn, but their are ways to improve your skills own your own.
1. My first rule is Accuracy rules over speed. Larry Vickers said that under stress your accuracy will be degraded , so hold yourself to a high standard. 2. You should develop a good dry fire program, and practice it a lot (in the beginning it should be at a 1 to 3 ratio of live fire to dry fire), I also find it better to dryfire a little every other day instead of long sessions. Good suggestions for dry fire programs 3. You need to hold yourself to a standard, find some drill that suit you and practice them until you become proficient, keep track of what level you are preforming at, and what things you struggle with. Great list of drills 4. Lastly check out some of the videos / books out there, we live in a great age where there are lots of firearm instructors, and easy ways to share that media. One of my favorites is Viking Tactical, he has some good drills on you tube and a great book on pistol shooting. http://www.youtube.com/user/VikingTactics http://www.vikingtactics.com/book.html |
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I'm going to make the assumption that you're either rather new to pistols or haven't shot regularly (not that I'm some pistol guru or anything).
I had a tendency to anticipate the shot and would unconsciously flinch as though I was helping the bullets out by pushing. As my strong hand would do most of it, I'd be flicking the muzzle down and to the left. What helped me overcome this was simply getting comfortable with shooting. In particular, rapid fire seemed to help the most. When I was thinking and concentrating on each shot, I would anticipate and flinch. Dry-firing I felt great about my mechanics. But as soon as the gun was going boom, I'd be flinching, trying to push the bullets out. I might also suggest shooting a .22 to start. Very little noise and felt recoil. This will help you get accustomed to the feeling of rounds going off. Then go to a full-sized 9mm. Maybe something relatively heavy, all metal like a P226, Beretta or High-Power. Then go to the .45. Finally, maybe relaxation techniques (whatever works for you). If you're tense, it will affect your shooting. Especially if you're kinda new to shooting and going to an indoor public range. You might feel like everyone is watching you and you are trying real hard not to look dumb. Of course, this is just my experience and is worth what you paid for it, as they say. |
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Check Hickok45's channel for his series of videos on shooting stance, grip and trigger control. After watching it, and seeing his suggestions for training exercises, I'm 100% convinced that the challenge I'm having, particularly with my 1911, are all about trigger control. If you are shooting down, and to the left, into the 7 and 8 o'clock position, you are flinching and jerking the trigger. You don't even realize it, but...the proof is there on the target in front of you. I'm going a LOT better with my Glock 17, which I've shot a couple thousand times by now, the 1911? A work in progress. Watch the video on trigger control, in particular, and you'll probably be convinced that is your problem too, here it is, this is the third of a three part series. This video on trigger control is one of the best I've seen. There is a whole world of common sense and truth here. Hickock45 delivers this information with a bit of humor and humility, and if you have ever seen the man bang gongs from 200 yards with his handguns, you know he has a lot to brag about, but he never does. The guy is a class act! Check it out:  |
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I’m not sure if this is in the right section, mods can move it if it isn’t. Sorry. For some reason, I cannot shoot pistols for the life of me. Today, I went shooting with an MP45, Taurus PT92 and a Yugo M57. I was shooting at 10 paces at paper and my hits always seem to go in the 7 o-clock position. I remember I was having this issue on my several previous range sessions, and found this pistol chart to try and explain why shots are going low-left. http://www.nimrodleague.org/images/wheel.gif I assumed I must have been gripping the gun tightly because I am very careful about the trigger squeeze (not jerking it). So, I practiced dry firing repeatedly (with MP45) to get a better feel of it and thought I was doing well. I watched several youtube videos about pistol shooting, including the Todd Jarrett one, and even bought the Magpul Pistol DVD to help give some more insight and learn the proper technique. I followed their thumbs forward grip religiously and practiced repeatedly. For revolvers, I watched a video Jerry Miculek had about proper revolver grip and practiced that as well. I go to the range today and guess what, they hit low left. AGAIN. WTF. I consult the pistol chart again, and yes, it’s either gripping or jerking the trigger. I then concentrate very hard on the trigger squeeze, take up the slack, and then slowly squeeze off. I managed to get a pretty decent (for me) 4 inch group, but again, low left. Hmm, maybe I’m holding the handgun too tightly. I loosen my grip slightly and then my shot group turns into a shotgun pattern. Ugh.. This happened with all 3 pistols, and ammo type didn’t seem to matter; always going low left. Interestingly, though, my dad brought his S&W model 19 (4inch) and 34 (2inch) and I did really well with them at the same distance. Whether using single or double action, I was able to hit around the center of where I aimed at, and even scored a nice 3 inch dead center group with the model 19 (in single action). I’m at a loss. I have no idea what I’m doing wrong and as far as I can tell, I’m doing everything the same way as the pros do it. No, I don’t expect to shoot extremely well just by watching some videos and I realize that comes with years and years of training, but I was hoping to improve somewhat on my pistol shooting. Any useful tips would be appreciated. The 'diagnostic target' is designed for single handed bullseye style shooting for a right handed shooter. It MAY help with other problems, but it was developed for that style. |
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Can you provide a link to prove your assertion? It was part of the army's marksmenship training, which back then was all one handed. http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf |
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The target is a good diagnostic, for one hand or two hand shooting. Here is a good rant on the subject of accuracy, from GlockTalk. I'm probably about to beat a dead horse but here goes (the horse won't care anyway): I've seen a lot of people recommending Glocks based on that Glock model's inherent "accuracy". For example, one person mentioned the G30 being "more accurate" than the G21.  You cannot outshoot your Glock pistol in any meaningful way. When people talk about the accuracy of a handgun, especially Glocks, they really mean "I sure thought I shot it purdy good." = "I felt rewarded shooting that gun." Consider, though, that with ANY stock Glock without some sort of horrendous defect (which is virtually unheard of), some prefect shooter robot or bullseye messiah or something could make all the bullet holes touch at 10 yards, maybe 15, maybe more. My point, though, is that that doesn't matter. Accuracy will be defined by the following variables, in roughly this order (at a given distance, assuming the gun is sighted in): Your trigger control Your trigger control Your trigger control Your sight alignment/sight picture Your consistent use of the gun (sight picture, grip, stance, etc.) The ammo you put in it Sight radius Mechanical stuff (e.g. barrel quality/lockup in the slide) # and type of physical obstructions between muzzle and target ...and Glocks aren't even meant to lock up that tightly against the slide, and no one really wants them to - it makes them more reliable! One other important thing - what is your Glock for? Really, what circumstances do you own a Glock for? Competition? Self-defense? Duty weapon? If your primary answer isn't Bullseye shooting, then you will necessarily be less accurate than the gun. Your job in IPSC/GSSF/IDPA/defense shooting is to balance speed, power, and accuracy, which doesn't mean putting 6 rounds through the same hole at 10 yards over and over - it means putting two rounds in a hand-sized group in the middle of a silhouette target as fast as possible. OK, so... that's accuracy for you. Have a good Tuesday everybody, and stay accurate!  |
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Been shooting handguns for 11 years now and I still haven't mastered not pulling shots to the left and slightly down.
I don't have this problem with my buckmark (must be lack of recoil) and my sp101 shoots really well for me (must be the slow, deliberate DA pull) but when I shoot my glock there are days when I put the gun away cause no matter what I do I can't seem to shake shooting left and slightly low. I think I'm going to take hicock45 advise and make some dummy rounds and just start mixing those in with every mag to try to break the habit. Dry firing doesn't seem to do anything for me, the gun is rock solid and doesn't move when I know there's no rounds in the gun. .22lr doesn't really help either cause all that does is teach you how to shoot a gun with no recoil, as soon as you shoot 9mm or above your back to square one again. Sneaking rounds in the mag I think is going to be the only way for me to break a 10+ year habit. |
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Lucky you. You have a flinch. None of your pistols have a decent trigger pull and as a result it's masking the problem from you.
Next time you go shooting hold the guns hard say 70% as tight as you can. Focus solely on the sights (sights not target) and just pull the trigger smoothly firmly and quickly. When I say quickly I mean take no MORE than 2 seconds from when you first put pressure on the trigger to when the shot breaks. Do NOT stop the pull once you start it. Just apply pressure and keep smoothly building pressure. You shoot better with the revolvers because they have better triggers and they break cleanly without fits and jumps. And before some smartass brags that 2 seconds doesn't qualify as a quick trigger pull and how they rip off 10 shots per second. Remember we're trying to get this man shooting well first, true speed can come later. |
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I’m at a loss. I have no idea what I’m doing wrong and as far as I can tell, I’m doing everything the same way as the pros do it. No, I don’t expect to shoot extremely well just by watching some videos and I realize that comes with years and years of training, but I was hoping to improve somewhat on my pistol shooting. Any useful tips would be appreciated. Firstly, that chart is next to useless. It cannot accurately diagnose what you are doing behind the gun. I did a little writeup about trigger control here: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?42-Handgun-Accuracy-Fundamentals-Trigger-Control Those are the basics of controlling the trigger. Anticipation results from knowing the exact moment that the gun is going to go off, not necessarily from jerking the trigger. Jerking the trigger, however, does let you know exactly when the gun is going off and as such it tends to go hand in hand with anticipation in shooters that are struggling with it. To learn proper trigger control, follow the drill I listed in my writeup at Pistol-Forum.com. The best method for breaking anticipation is to use ball-and-dummy in various permutations with a partner who is capable of doing the drill with you and coaching you in the right direction. Standard ball and dummy requires someone else loading your gun for you so that you don't know if the gun is going to go off or not. They hand you the weapon and you are then asked to make a precise shot with your best accuracy. When they pull the trigger thinking the gun is going to go bang they do what they normally do and anticipate...but if the chamber is empty they get to see how radically the gun dips because it isn't disguised by recoil anymore. That's the lightbulb moment. Every time you anticipate during B&D you clear the weapon and execute 5 perfect trigger presses with the empty case or dime on the front sight to re-program your brain to use the proper trigger control. After several runs with ball and dummy, you can move to timed ball and dummy and command ball and dummy. The goal is to get you to work to the point where you're able to pull the trigger like the case is sitting on the front sight every time whether it's there or not, whether you're shooting fast or slow, etc. Note that there is generally a pretty poor understanding of the fundamentals of using a handgun properly out there in internetland...which is why that damn chart keeps showing up. Also note that it doesn't take decades to improve your shooting...I've spent as little as an hour coaching people and they've exhibited immediate, significant improvement because they finally had some frame of reference to understand controlling the trigger properly. Quoted:
I don't have this problem with my buckmark (must be lack of recoil) and my sp101 shoots really well for me (must be the slow, deliberate DA pull) but when I shoot my glock there are days when I put the gun away cause no matter what I do I can't seem to shake shooting left and slightly low. Right. With the buckmark your brain isn't worried about the recoil so you don't anticipate. With the SP101 you probably have a harder time predicting the exact moment the trigger is going to break which leads to less anticipation. Longer triggers with a rolling break are sometimes easier to shoot well because you have a harder time nailing down the instant that the boom is coming. Subtle differences in the characteristics of the trigger can make a difference in how your brain perceives things. As an example, I anticipate less with the H&K P30 using the LEM trigger system than I do with my M&Ps...all because the H&K's longer trigger with a more rolling break is harder to predict than the M&P's. It's like that with most hammer fired guns vs. striker fired guns for me. Quoted:
He talks about how waiting for the sights to be at that exact spot and being like, NOW! is totally incorrect. Which is what I always used to do. This is another common phenomenon some refer to as "twitch-fire". The other thing about shooting is that folks freak out because of the movement of the sights. They see the sights moving around and believe that they have to make a shot NOW NOW NOW when they see an acceptable sight picture. This usually leads to slapping the bejeezus out of the trigger and, of course, anticipation. I cover sight management in this little writeup: http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?489-Handgun-Accuracy-Fundamentals-Sight-Management |
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One tip that may (or may not!) work for you is to assume a two handed grip. If you are right handed, grab the grip in your right hand and seat it deep into the V between your thumb and index finger. Wrap your left hand around your right hand, on the grip.
Now use the left hand and squeeze HARD. All of your grip force on the gun is coming from the LEFT hand. The right hand isn't holding the gun, it is just held there by the left hand. Now using ONLY the index finger of the right hand, squeeze the trigger. This exercise forces you to only use the right index finger, not any other muscles in your right hand. This can keep those other muscles from affecting your shooting... It is not a permanent fix, but a diagnostic. See if this trick gets you shooting better for starters. |
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Can you provide a link to prove your assertion? It was part of the army's marksmenship training, which back then was all one handed. http://www.saveourguns.com/Ar_Marks_Un_Pistol_Train_Guide.pdf Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
George Santayana, Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284 |
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Go with a .22 that has a good trigger until you can shoot it really well.
Someone commented that a 22 would not help when you moved on to a centerfire...BS! The 22 will allow you to learn proper technique for cheap and under no pressure. Once you get the muscle memory ingrained, it will directly apply to any handgun of the same type (revolver/pistol). |
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Go with a .22 that has a good trigger until you can shoot it really well. Someone commented that a 22 would not help when you moved on to a centerfire...BS! The 22 will allow you to learn proper technique for cheap and under no pressure. Once you get the muscle memory ingrained, it will directly apply to any handgun of the same type (revolver/pistol). Not quite. If you use say a Ruger MK-II with a nice trigger and try to apply that same muscle memory to a Glock you'll be sorely disappointed with the results. Using a rimfire pistol/revolver can help considerably...but you need the sights and trigger to be as close to what you're trying to build proficiency with as possible. This is why the Advantage Arms kits for Glocks are in high demand. |
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A rimfire can help with the fundamentals but there is no substitute for live fire centerfire training. Someone on this site once pointed out that it doesn't make sense to train your doubletaps with a .22- it just doesn't mimic the real deal enough. This is very true. That said I own and love a .22 pistol and am better with it than any other pistol I own.
A cleaner trigger and more ergonomic grip can improve your shooting even without technique. |
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have someone load your mags and stick a few snap caps in there... shoot at a moderate speed and video tape yourself. You're probably flinching a little. I dryfired a ton and it help my trigger pull a great deal, but I still flinched my wrists when shooting live rounds. The video will show this when you fire on a snap cap. For two handed shooting I grip VERY tight with both hands, push with stronghand, pull with weakhand, tense wrists, and relaxed elbows. Just something you might wanna try.
Edit, pay special attention to johnwayne's posts, Im pretty sure the guy REALLY knows his stuff, especially when it comes to pistols. |
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As a righty there is a very good chance that if you are extremely consistent with low left you more than likely have too much trigger finger or your milking the grip. A consistent flinch or heeling can cause this also. Too much trigger finger or being in the notch of the first knuckle of the trigger finger can cause this as you start to incorporate the large knuckle at the base of the finger. You want to isolate and remove the large knuckle from influencing the trigger pull. This is generally resolved by placing the middle of the pad of the trigger finger on the trigger creating a distinctive gap between the trigger finger and the frame of the pistol. This will help isolate that big knuckle and removing from the equation giving a more consistent or direct to the rear trigger pull. I actually see people consistently push or pull when they get too much trigger finger involved and this generally is influenced by the size of their hand or what they are actually doing.
The second most common is milking the grip. With an UNLOADED and DRY weapon, do some simple dry drills. This can be seen by an over exaggeration of a trigger pull. With a two handed grip aim your UNLOADED weapon at an object. Then with the PRIMARY shooting hand start squeezing the grip of the pistol with your little finger of that primary hand. Notice the sights start to dip. This is what many people do when they are anticipating the recoil and want to counter the muzzle filp of the weapon by counteracting the rotational forces via a squeezing pressure exerted on the frontstrap of the grip. Heeling or classic flinching means that you are pushing forward, or forward and down on the pistol to counter the recoil. In any of these cases, dry firing with techniques mentioned by John Wayne 777 with balancing a dime or casing on the front sight helps with pure dry fire. Also as mentioned incorporating dummy rounds into live fire shows this very well also. I would suggest video of the dummy round drills as video will show the shooter A LOT! |