[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Browning Hi Power (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/8/2009 8:12:56 PM EDT
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I expanded my limited handgun horizons to a certain Hi Power last weekend, new in gun case at the local shop. My long time friend behind the counter took it down and went over each part carefully explaining Browning's design and the fact Browning never finished the gun before passing on. Browning's goal was to correct what had been wrong with the 1911 in the Hi Power.
Since the Hi-Power was finished by a Frenchman due to Browning's death, my friend goes on to explain that anything considered not of good design on the gun would ...of course.. be the Frenchman's fault. Browning's goal for the gun was to be flawless. While mentally masturbating the whole Hi Power concept it starts to hit me how much the internals look like today's plastic guns, what genius. I now have the Hi Power bug and considering replacing plastic for this in a .40...... |
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Your friend is wrong- but he is close
Dieudonné Saive wasn't French, he was Belgian. And while I hold JMB in the highest regard, Saive was also a genius. He designed or improved a number of classic firearms. (See Wikipedia for his bio) And the Hi Power as first concieved by JMB was one ugly gun. Thank Saive for giving us the HP as it is today. |
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So...........my friend needs to be corrected...not that I will, because it's his story. But....you still haven't answered the question.... No one answered your question because you didn't ask one. 
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I expanded my limited handgun horizons to a certain Hi Power last weekend, new in gun case at the local shop. My long time friend behind the counter took it down and went over each part carefully explaining Browning's design and the fact Browning never finished the gun before passing on. Browning's goal was to correct what had been wrong with the 1911 in the Hi Power. Since the Hi-Power was finished by a Frenchman due to Browning's death, my friend goes on to explain that anything considered not of good design on the gun would ...of course.. be the Frenchman's fault. Browning's goal for the gun was to be flawless. While mentally masturbating the whole Hi Power concept it starts to hit me how much the internals look like today's plastic guns, what genius. I now have the Hi Power bug and considering replacing plastic for this in a .40...... |
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I think you'll find that the worst aspect of the BHP (a segmented trigger bar running through the slide, rather a single piece through the frame) was designed by Mr. Browning himself.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=2DVLAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&zoom=4&dq=automatic+pistol&as_drrb_ap=b&as_minm_ap=1&as_miny_ap=1920&as_maxm_ap=1&as_maxy_ap=1938&output=html 
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I now have the Hi Power bug and considering replacing plastic for this in a .40...... I'm ssooo......sorry... I guess I hit the period key when I should have been hittin the question mark key ?????? That's a great way to get around here, act like a punk, then I'm sure people will be more than willing to help you!
Throw a question mark after that statement and it still looks the same, only it still doesn't have to proper punctuation. No part of it looks like a question! Maybe something along the lines of: I now have the Hi Power bug and considering replacing plastic for this in a .40 what does everyone else think? |
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I can take that....What does everyone else think ? Now THAT is a question! 
Asking the fanboys of a Browning forum whether you should get an HP is like asking the choir whether you should go to church. Get that HP quick. Until Browning imports another batch of HP's they are a little scarce. If you want a .40 you may have some luck in finding a FN (not Browning marked) equipped with the SFS. All Browning HP's are made by FN (Fabrique Nationale), a few years ago FN imported some 9mm and .40 HP's through FNUSA, rather than Browning. All Brownings Hi Powers are FN's, not all FN Hi Powers are Browning. |
| From everything I am reading on the Hi-Power, the trigger pull is heavy. Brownell's has spring kits to replace stock springs. What's the expected pull weight after polishing the internals and respringing ? 4 lbs is what I want for carry. Also reading there are problems with magazines that are indicative of double stacks. Anyone ???? The recoil spring I intend to leave stock for the hotter loads. Don't have any desire to run + P through it. Appreciate the feedback |
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From everything I am reading on the Hi-Power, the trigger pull is heavy. Brownell's has spring kits to replace stock springs. What's the expected pull weight after polishing the internals and respringing ? 4 lbs is what I want for carry. Also reading there are problems with magazines that are indicative of double stacks. Anyone ???? The recoil spring I intend to leave stock for the hotter loads. Don't have any desire to run + P through it. Appreciate the feedback Remove the magazine disconnect (easy) and you greatly improve the trigger pull. As long as you use FN, Inglis or MecGar mags you'll never have a problem with magazines. I don't know what you read about magazine problems, but I own seven Hi Powers and all run 100% with any mag I put through them. Hi Powers are MUCH, MUCH, MUCh less "magazine sensitive" than 1911's. Just avoid crapmags- USA, Triple K, ProMag and you'll be fine. Buy a few extra recoil springs. They're cheap and will keep you from battering your HP. |
| yep yep, replace recoil springs every 1500 rounds.....has anyone tried to use the lighter trigger springs and if so did you change your mainspring ??? after changing springs what did your trigger pull at ?? I like factory magazines the best, the springs are timed with the rest of the gun.... have a hunch this is a finicky gun when timing. there is another way to lighten the trigger pull....taking snips out of spring coils a little at a time...anyone try this ??? I have a lot of questions about the hi-power but will limit to these for now..thanks.. |
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yep yep, replace recoil springs every 1500 rounds.....has anyone tried to use the lighter trigger springs and if so did you change your mainspring ??? after changing springs what did your trigger pull at ?? I like factory magazines the best, the springs are timed with the rest of the gun.... have a hunch this is a finicky gun when timing. there is another way to lighten the trigger pull....taking snips out of spring coils a little at a time...anyone try this ??? I have a lot of questions about the hi-power but will limit to these for now..thanks.. I don't think you will find it finicky at all. Lighter trigger return spring might give problems with a reset. A lighter mainspring spring will make for a nicer trigger of course, but I would stick to low power 9mm. When running some hotter loads, that extra strength mainspring comes in handy. You can get a nice trigger with stock springs with some work on the sear and hammer. As previously stated, MecGar mags are GTG. My South African mags from CDNN, after some initial problems, seem to be running nicely, too. |
| What's the stock mainspring weight from factory ? What weight did you change mainspring too and have you measured your pull ?.. For ammo, going to run Federal Personal Defense 115 grain (blue box) has moderate load and won't bang the gun up while allowing a lighter pull......these are the hotter loads that I was talking about....99.75 % of what will be shot will be 115grain fmj on top of 4.5 grains of TiteGroup. It's the lowest load Hodgkins recommends so I won't be interchanging springs from range to carry.....Sear reset you were talking about is what I was talking about in timing the gun, and yes am glad you brought it up. Your talking about the kinds of things I was looking for.. Thanks for your help. |
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Bought my new-used Hi power 40S&W today @ online auction. Be at my FFL Tuesday, he's going to push the sights off. Then home to the 1911 stable...You think the pony's will play nice ? I don't know either except the Para 18-9 is going to look even sillier amongst them. HP is coming completely down, stripping both slide and receiver. Receiver is being shipped with a Colt receiver to MD Machining for scallops (chain link). Chainlinking front and back straps on HP, leaving serial undisturbed on front strap.
Slide is staying @ stable so I can round it. (mild melt) Here's where I need help. First of all if I knew how to post a picture of the gun on here I would and update as build progresses. Second....I know absolutely nothing about a Hi-Power and could use some suggestions for the parts list. This build won't be quick or easy. Thanks Guys.........david. |
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Bought my new-used Hi power 40S&W today @ online auction. Be at my FFL Tuesday, he's going to push the sights off. Then home to the 1911 stable...You think the pony's will play nice ? I don't know either except the Para 18-9 is going to look even sillier amongst them. HP is coming completely down, stripping both slide and receiver. Receiver is being shipped with a Colt receiver to MD Machining for scallops (chain link). Chainlinking front and back straps on HP, leaving serial undisturbed on front strap. Slide is staying @ stable so I can round it. (mild melt) Here's where I need help. First of all if I knew how to post a picture of the gun on here I would and update as build progresses. Second....I know absolutely nothing about a Hi-Power and could use some suggestions for the parts list. This build won't be quick or easy. Thanks Guys.........david. One question. If you've never owned a Hi Power why are you doing all these "customizations"? Shoot it first. Then think what would make it better. |
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Reply to DogTown. Some guys are race car drivers, while others are race car mechanics. They both have a deep passion for the cars but their interests branch from the trunk. I love to take things that work well and make them run better. I might just totally screw the thing up and make it no better than scrap metal. So far thats not happened......yet.
Besides there is another issue at play. I'm located just outside of Columbia, Mo. Home of the Bianchi Cup at Green Valley. Ray Chapman ran his acedemy there for years before retiring to Texas. Can you imagine pulling out a cookie cutter on that range ? I know it's a good and accurate instrument, we're just going to tweak it a bit. |
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Reply to DogTown. Some guys are race car drivers, while others are race car mechanics. They both have a deep passion for the cars but their interests branch from the trunk. I love to take things that work well and make them run better. I might just totally screw the thing up and make it no better than scrap metal. So far thats not happened......yet. Besides there is another issue at play. I'm located just outside of Columbia, Mo. Home of the Bianchi Cup at Green Valley. Ray Chapman ran his acedemy there for years before retiring to Texas. Can you imagine pulling out a cookie cutter on that range ? I know it's a good and accurate instrument, we're just going to tweak it a bit. I think you'd be happy with the pistol bone stock, but I look forward to your results. I always love to see people customizing their Hi-Powers. Post plenty of pics when she comes back. I eagerly await them. |
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HP arrived Tuesday at my FFL friend's house. Haven't seen it yet. Bummed... Got called out to work. He's an IPSC and Bianchi Cup shooter of days gone by so needless to say say he's a huge fan of the 1911. When I called and told him what was heading his way I knew what was coming. "What did you do that for" ?!? " I don't know...Temporary lapse of sanity I guess."
He called when it arrived. "Looks good he said, five and a half pound trigger pull". I was amazed....Am wondering if the trigger...magazine whatever is still in gun..Dunno....Anywho...MD Machining has gotten back to me and claims he can scallop the front strap but won't know about doing the backstrap until he gets it setup in the mill. Can't wait to see, will post pictures when I get back. Pretty much have a good idea of parts list to get a one off custom look and four pound trigger pull. I believe all of what's needed is coming from Cylinder & Slide. Post later. |
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tagged for pics and more info....
the BHP is such an elegant and functional pistol, i think most ipsc and bianchi type shooters would recognise it's intrinsic value as a reliable workhorse without the need for gilding the lily... still i'm interested to see what pops out. I've not seen much frontstrap work other than gentle stippling, I'm surprised there's enough metal there to scallop.... |
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Picked up my new-used Hi-Power Sunday night. I changed my mind on pushing the sights off before shooting, as it sits here now it is still unfired by me. Have field stripped and looks like no more than a hundred shots have been fired through barrel. Bluing is good on upper receiver and shows some holster wear on slide. To my hand it feels like it was made to fit and is surprisingly light. It looks factory original inside and out. The grips are wrap around three finger groove rubber which will be replaced. Back and front straps show pitting. She came from Georgia and looks as if it was in the hand more than used at range. Can't fault some one for feeling up a gun, right ?
So.....what is my verdict ? It's beautiful...flawless...timeless, the finish is a deep, endless gloss. The trigger... .... .... well... it needs some work.. it's narrow, feels like it pulls right at the pivot ? Dunno.. It's no 1911. To my hand it feels better. My fingers tell a different story, but I need to get off subject for a moment. This pistol I bought for carry so the first thing needed would be a holster, right ? Magazine pouch would be good too. Called Midway and ordered an Bianchi #3S IWB LH Pistol Pocket holster and 20A magazine pouch I'm right handed but got the left hand to carry middle of back at a cant. It's not often I get my holster choice right the first time, it's awesome. Holster has top snapping strap which allows secure " cock and lock". Or so I thought it would...When I took HP out of holster after being holstered for the day I drew "unlocked but cocked" Exactly the reason I don't carry a 1911. I have been carrying XD's because I felt the choice safer, could it possibly be that plastic is carry perfection ? I'm not ready to give up that easily... Has anyone else had this problem with HP, it has factory original ambi-safety. 1911 thumb safeties have a détente to keep safety in position, not seeing any kind of détente keeper on HP....hhmmmm... suggestions ? Back to trigger.... Looks like the logical option would be the wide trigger made by Cylinder & Slide, anyone have experience with this ??? Tomorrow she's off to the range....still haven't figured out how to post pictures or they would be up by now...help ?? Thanks.... |
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I strongly advise to not use "small of the back" carry.
1. SOB places the handgun directly over the lower spine. Fall on your back and you risk permanent paralysis. 2.Then there is the issue of sweeping your own body when drawing "palm out". 3. Ever practice retention of the firearm while holstered? (keeping someone from snatching your gun) Almost impossible to prevent that with SOB. There are many holstermakers who refuse to produce SOB designs for these reasons. And I believe many police departments prohibit wearing of handcuffs, radios, batons, etc at the SOB position. I agree that the Hi Power needs a more positive "click" on the safety. For that reason you should use the holster as the manufacturer intended. When you shoot yourself you can't blame the gun or holster.
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A properly fitted C&S safety has clicks that will remind you of a 1911. On and off.
I just picked up a HP w/ C&S wide trigger, Type II hammer and sear. The wide trigger is nice, but I don't know that I prefer it to the factory trigger. I like the hammer, but I think the Type I no-bite is a better choice for the HP. This pistol also has a Novak rear sight. I like the sight, but in my opinion, it is not a big improvement over the factory Mk III sight. |
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Your friend is wrong- but he is close Dieudonné Saive wasn't French, he was Belgian. And while I hold JMB in the highest regard, Saive was also a genius. He designed or improved a number of classic firearms. (See Wikipedia for his bio) And the Hi Power as first concieved by JMB was one ugly gun. Thank Saive for giving us the HP as it is today. I was looking for a hand clapping icon but there isn't one.
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Uno this Hi Power build has been fun with the interaction from everyone and can't wait hardly to get it done.. Some of my fun has been the research I've read on Wikipedia. According to what I have read so far Saive, whom I like to call Frenchy. Frenchy's contributions seem to have been done after the patents had expired on the 1911 and what he did for the Hi Power was to simply incorporate what John Browning had already invented but couldn't incorporate into the HP's design because he had sold the 1911 patent to Samuel Colt.
Since reading this I have spent considerable time this last week working on the Hi Power. Dropped a C&S spring kit in, then tuned and polished internals. Trigger is lighter but has a lot of creep before it breaks because of the magazine release. Am hesitant about removing because I kinda like the idea of it. Probably in the end I will end up fitting a C&S wide trigger and swap as needed between range and carry. I've also spent a lot of time on two 1911 builds which were not done prior to buying Hi-Power and I'm not going any further with it until the 1911's are done. Good news is the 1911's are almost done and will be wrapped up in a few weeks, both are scheduled for machining and one for bluing. Anyway....sidetracked....have had a chance to compare both the 1911 and Hi-Power. I like them both but think folks should put the credit where credit belongs Each pistols creator John Browning. |
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Uno this Hi Power build has been fun with the interaction from everyone and can't wait hardly to get it done.. Some of my fun has been the research I've read on Wikipedia. According to what I have read so far Saive, whom I like to call Frenchy... Uhhhhh..........Saive was Belgian, not French. While Frenchy might seem cute to you , it is about as accurate as calling me a Yankee (which if done in person would get you punched in the nose here in Texas  )
Quoted:...Frenchy's contributions seem to have been done after the patents had expired on the 1911 and what he did for the Hi Power was to simply incorporate what John Browning had already invented but couldn't incorporate into the HP's design because he had sold the 1911 patent to Samuel Colt...
Uhhhhh (again)..............Samuel Colt DIED when JMB was SEVEN years old. As great a firearms genius as Browning was , selling a patent to Samuel Colt at that age is a bit difficult.
What part of the HP did Saive incorporate that was patent protected by the 1911? Quoted:...Since reading this I have spent considerable time this last week working on the Hi Power. Dropped a C&S spring kit in, then tuned and polished internals. Trigger is lighter but has a lot of creep before it breaks because of the magazine release...
Magazine release has nothing to do with the HP trigger pull. You mean magazine disconnect. If you do not remove it you will probably experience some grittiness during the trigger pull. The disconnect rubs against the face of the magazine. If you polish the magazine where the disconnect rubs against it you will also improve the quality of the trigger pull, but it will be nowhere as good as if the disconnect were removed entirely. Quoted:
...I like them both but think folks should put the credit where credit belongs Each pistols creator John Browning. Saive was a genius in his own right, and finished the design after Brownings death in 1926. Make no mistake about it- the Hi Power was Saive's baby. The differences between the Hi Power as JMB envisioned vs. what Saive completed are quite different. |
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Look forward to seeing your results on the Hi Power. I'm impressed you have the skills to do the work. I'm hiring much of what your doing to get it done.
I think it's good that people don't auger in one pistol or another. I like shooting revolvers, full size sigs, and hi powers. One of these days I might even try one of the clunky 1911's. |
It's a good thing I have more patience smithing than posting pictures.... geeezz. Well there it is. So far I have put 200 rds down the pipe, I love a 40 cal. Putting a hole inside a hole at 15 yards is no problem here. Leaving the barrel as is. Have put C&S 2 1/2 lb reduction in but have covered that already. Have bought C&S Wide Combat Trigger and C&S drop in Trigger Pull Set with commander hammer. There is nothing drop in about this kit at all. Sear is squared at engagement point. So...am waiting for some money to find a hole in my pocket . Then ordering Power Custom Series 1 Stoning Fixture with Hi Power adapter and Brownells Hammer/Sear file & Stone Kit....yea, yea..upgrading some tools for this project. Ordered grips from Esmeralda in Coco-Bolo Dorado. They have come in and sent back because of loose fit. She says she stands behind her work. We'll see. Her grips are beautiful. Also looking at Hakan in Norway to do a set, better get in line. Waiting on Matt Davis to finish scalloping front strap on a Colt I sent to him and then off the BHP will go. Front and back straps will be scalloped and top of slide flattened and serrated. Then back it will come to Perkins Custom who is a friend of mine to have slide cut for Novak sights and then he'll reblue everything. Put a pencil to this build one night, the number came back at $1475.00. Not including tools of course. |
| Almost forgot the best part.... Have been comparing the ends (beavertail) on an Ed Brown grip safety. I have a mig welder but think a Tig would be better suited. Anywho.. I know an extremely good welder who has several Tigs... Am going to cut the tip off a beavertail and weld to tail on HP....It's gonna look too cool ! |
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Almost forgot the best part.... Have been comparing the ends (beavertail) on an Ed Brown grip safety. I have a mig welder but think a Tig would be better suited. Anywho.. I know an extremely good welder who has several Tigs... Am going to cut the tip off a beavertail and weld to tail on HP....It's gonna look too cool ! Why didn't you just get the C&S "no bite" hammer? If you had, you wouldn't need a beavertail. |
| Yup, once again your right Dogtown. This build isn't about need, but wants. It has to have a " cool factor ". Wouldn't be custom if it didn't. I am really going for an extraordinary look to this build. Which by the way has given way to another build. Just as soon as I get done with the BHP... am doing a 1911 bobtail commander in Colt. Plan on cutting and lightening the slide to look like a Browning and possibly welding the guide rod opening closed to look like a BHP. There is no method or need to any of this.. Before I do that, I " need " to go buy a good digital camera for under $ 300.00. Any suggestions ? |
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. Before I do that, I " need " to go buy a good digital camera for under $ 300.00. Any suggestions ? I have used sony extensively for a point and shoot camera. works well, and you can pick up a 7-10 megapixel easily enough. One feature you NEED if you are going to take close up, detail pics is a MACRO feature. (google it). If you want to go high end, then get a Nikon SLR digital. |
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. Before I do that, I " need " to go buy a good digital camera for under $ 300.00. Any suggestions ? I have used sony extensively for a point and shoot camera. works well, and you can pick up a 7-10 megapixel easily enough. One feature you NEED if you are going to take close up, detail pics is a MACRO feature. (google it). If you want to go high end, then get a Nikon SLR digital. You may find that any camera with a macro mode works but the real problem is still lighting. |
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...snip.... and possibly welding the guide rod opening closed to look like a BHP....... erm...if you do this, please post a video on Youtube of you trying to strip it for cleaning..... or for that matter, trying to put the pieces together... for cameras, check out dc resource or D P Review for good impartial reviews... 8 to 10mp cameras from sony nikon and canon are all available for around $179. Simpler DSLR models from Nikon and Canon complete with lens start at $499 for a 10 mp Canon XS with an 18-55 lens .... |
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erm...if you do this, please post a video on Youtube of you trying to strip it for cleaning.....
or for that matter, trying to put the pieces together... Would strip like a BHP, using a slightly shortened GI guide rod with shock buffers. Colt slide would be lightened considerably....... But what about the barrel bushing ? Thread one into the slide or weld an insert into slide that would accomodate 40 S&W bull barrel cut to commander length..Your not the only one that's skeptical. .. Am focused on this build for now, just finished 2 Colt Combat Elite builds. Will post them on Colt Forum as soon as I steal a camera... They are beauutiful ! ! Thanks for the camera tips. |
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Good point...thats why I like forums... bounce ideas off of other people...Just took slide off one of mine...duhhh. Like I said earlier. Am focused on BHP build for now and probably will be for next 2 months. I don't have a canidate for the Commander build yet. Looking used. AS soon as I do will post that build on the Colt Forum. If it gets the same reaction it has from my friends at home.... will probably cause convulsions.... I get so tired of looking at the same old crap. All the customs built mimick the same old tired stuff. I really appreciate your input and after taking a 1911 down just now have come up with another idea that will give a closed appearance that I think would be best suited for the Colt Forum.... thanks again.
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| My first two builds are on page 16 in the Colt photo album if anyone cares to take a look. They were taken with cell phone. Am looking into a really good camera and lighting equipment. I believe now that my builds are only as good as the camera and equipment I shoot them with. BHP got the C&S Commander hammer, sear, and wide trigger last weekend. Waiting on some more cash to rain from the heavens...david. |
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I am going to post this again just as an illustration of what experts and craftsmen can do with the High Power platform.
To me Glock has nothing on perfection compared to this build: Heirloom Precision BHP It is a little sobering to know that this is about as good as it will ever get for me and a handgun, but that's ok. |
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I am going to post this again just as an illustration of what experts and craftsmen can do with the High Power platform. To me Glock has nothing on perfection compared to this build: Heirloom Precision BHP It is a little sobering to know that this is about as good as it will ever get for me and a handgun, but that's ok. I've admired your gun on more than one occasion, it's gorageious. I've seen several builds that they have done that knock your socks off.... You said something about the travel being taken out of your gun... I'm curious.. how did they do it ? |
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[ You said something about the travel being taken out of your gun... I'm curious.. how did they do it ?
That's a damn good question. I am holding up a stock BHP and the Heirloom Precision frame side by side and the only difference I can see other than the trigger movement is that there is no hole for a magazine disconnect spring in the back of the trigger on the custom pistol. This doesn't make sense, because the cross pin on the trigger itself is still there. I don't really want to strip them down completely, but the secret must be in the trigger itself which has been either replaced entirely or oddly modified. I don't understand the presence of the cross pin in the trigger if there is no hole to support a magazine disconnect spring. The economy of movement in the custom pistol is certainly apparent in looking at the two like this. I just can't figure it out. It is almost as though the cross pin has been left as a red herring to make you believe the trigger hasn't been completely replaced. Could they be that sneaky, or am I getting (even more) paranoid? |
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[ You said something about the travel being taken out of your gun... I'm curious.. how did they do it ?
That's a damn good question. I am holding up a stock BHP and the Heirloom Precision frame side by side and the only difference I can see other than the trigger movement is that there is no hole for a magazine disconnect spring in the back of the trigger on the custom pistol. This doesn't make sense, because the cross pin on the trigger itself is still there. I don't really want to strip them down completely, but the secret must be in the trigger itself which has been either replaced entirely or oddly modified. I don't understand the presence of the cross pin in the trigger if there is no hole to support a magazine disconnect spring. The economy of movement in the custom pistol is certainly apparent in looking at the two like this. I just can't figure it out. It is almost as though the cross pin has been left as a red herring to make you believe the trigger hasn't been completely replaced. Could they be that sneaky, or am I getting (even more) paranoid? Hmm.. I'm voting for 'more paranoid' here. 
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