Posted: 11/29/2011 7:41:40 PM EDT
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Decided I'd put a post up for those (like I was) looking for some specific answers to what the deal is with the Kareen Israeli pistols being sold at the larger distributors. I couldn't find much information prior to my purchase, so I figured I'd throw some info out there.
For the record, I an NOT a Kareen expert. I didn't import them. I have no association with any importers, past or present. These are only my own personal observations. This is identical to the pistol I purchased: 
First, it appears to be a hybrid MK2 / MK3. Why? Slide says MK2. Frame (beavertail and square trigger guard) looks like MK3. MK2 frames looked like standard Hi powers. These appear to be MK2 slides on MK3 frames. Only frames have SN#. Barrels and slides do not, so hybrid theory is very likely. I DO NOT believe (as has been mentioned before) that the frames are from ARCUS. Too many differences. It's possible, but I don't think so. Standard Browning operating system, not the Hungarian (cheaper) Smith and Wesson version. Sights (front and rear) are dovetailed in. No fixed half dime garbage sights. Sights were also staked in place  Don't ask me why.
Bore was clean and mirror bright. Grips are complete garbage. Sticky, dirty, best residing in a trash can. Takes standard HP mags. Barrel lugs are slightly rounded, but not very much so. Tested (straight from FFL, no cleaning, no adjustments) with 75 rounds of Wolf 9mm ammo. 4 failure to feeds. Tap on back of slide put it back in battery and fired fine. Recoil spring is quite weak. Takes almost no effort to move slide back on a cocked gun. Easy fix that I'm positive will eliminate the FTF problems. For the most part, gun fired as fast as I could pull the trigger. Rapid fire, pseudo accuracy test put all 15 shots of a mag into a single ragged hole about 2" x 3" big at 10 yards, offhand. Trigger is fine. Not national match by any means, but suitable for a single action military pistol. Why don't I think it's an ARCUS? Too many differences. Top of slide is angle cut, not a smooth radius. Trigger guard is undercut. The slide itself just looks like it's "taller". The locking bar is even different - ARCUS is round, HP is more ovoid. SEE: 
And now for the MK3. Many similar differences like the ARCUS. Slide is very different - From the (cheaper) angle cut top of the slide, to the 1911 looking front (not cut narrow like a HP). It just looks more "close but not really". 
So, there you have it. Kareen in a nutshell. |
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First let me say "thanks" for your post and pictures, very much appreciated. It's still a mystery as to the "who, what and why" with regards to the Israeli Kareen, let alone anyone being an expert. God knows I'm not. But I'll offer my take on the issue with regards to whether or not the Bulgarian's supplied the parts, the whole weapon or any part of the later Kareens. after they switched vendors from F.E.G. to Arcus.
Your first picture is of a mid-1990's made "Kareen Mk.II". Probably assembled in Israel from parts left over from earlier F.E.G. supplied parts, with a frame either made in Israel or Bulgaria. My bet is the frame is Bulgarian, at least the actual trigger (and hammer) was certainly supplied by Arcus, as the shape and "curve" is certainly from a single-action Bulgarian Arcus 94, the main giveaway. Since it's all a wild guess at this time, I'd say most all of the weapon was either wholly made in Bulgaria or the parts were shipped in kit form to Israel and it was assembled there, with the "JO Arms" roll-mark added after importation or assembly. I once spoke to the father/son owners of J.O. Arms in Houston at a Shot Show in 1997 or 1998 and asked as many questions about their "Kareen" as they would answer and they were not very forthcoming at all. I wondered at the time WHY they were even there, as they had no product to sell other than a few hundred pistols they had imported a year or two before which were long "sold-out" by then. The Arcus Company is a HUGE military/commercial concern. It wouldn't surprise me at all that the Israeli's sent the entire technical package for the "Kareen" to Bulgaria after their contacts at F.E.G. either raised their prices or began to wind down in the late 1990's. It would have been no real feat of engineering or manufacturing to change the whole weapon to anything the Israeli's wanted, as long as they were willing to pay, on time and in full. Your photo of the double-action Arcus 98 is an example made since the mid-late 2000's and wouldn't quite compare to your earlier photo of the single-action Kareen Mk.II, made maybe as many as ten years earlier. Just a thought or two on your very informative and interesting post. 
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First of all, I think they used the same frame and grips for the Mk II and Mk III. The plain-jane BHP-alike frame was the Mk I. There's a video on YouTube that should confirm this. So, the OP's Kareen could very well be a real Mk II.
Anyways, I wouldn't discount the frame differences so quickly... if you look at the images returned in a search of the Arcus 94, none of them have the same shape as the Kareen's frame. Some of them come close, but nothing is quite like it. There is one other issue with the Arcus theory that doesn't get discussed much, which is that the timeline is REALLY tight for the Kareen to have used the same frame. The Kareen MkII and the Arcus 94 came out roughly the same year, or such was my research. It seems odd for the Bulgarians to have made two slightly different frames for their new gun, especially when the Arcus 94's frame would have sufficed. It's not impossible, of course... The Star of David rollmark on the barrel is also a still-unexplained mystery... who made the barrels? Why is that the only part on the gun with an Israeli stamp? KSN apparently also made CZ99s under license, so I think it's reasonable to assume that they at least assembled the Kareens. |
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Quoted:
Just have to add, barrel and slides ARE #SN'd to the frame - slide is internally stamped and the barrel is numbered on the opposite side from the ejection port. My hybrid theory went out the window. Could the bbl and slide have been stamped at an Israeli factory during assembly? From hybrid sources? |
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Where can I get one of these, and how much if you don't mind me asking.  They're on Gun Broker and Auction Arms in the $250 - $300 range. There's a MKIII on Auction Arms now for $270. Found the reason for the couple failure to feed's when the new recoil springs arrived toady. The old spring was a full 3/4" shorter than the new one. Weak spring? Ahhh –– yea. MK 3 guns are obviously cheaper made - less machining. No slim cuts at the front of the slide. Top of the slide is not curved - it's flat with angle cuts on the top corners. Just looks a little more "SIG-ish" than "Hi Power-ish". On a side note, the "Argentine" mags with the metal followers are really hit or miss as to quality. I bought 8. 2 look great - smooth, feed good, fall free well. 3 are not as smooth finish wise, but work OK. The last 3 are not smooth, feed fine, but need a little tug or jerk to get them to fall free. They're made of a thicker steel than the one mag that came with the gun. Might be part of the problem. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Just have to add, barrel and slides ARE #SN'd to the frame - slide is internally stamped and the barrel is numbered on the opposite side from the ejection port. My hybrid theory went out the window. Could the bbl and slide have been stamped at an Israeli factory during assembly? From hybrid sources? I don't think so. The stamping is too good (neat) to have been done at a later date by hand. |