Posted: 7/9/2006 9:05:15 AM EDT
| Have any of you researched or actally used the Expanding Full Metal Jacket ammo from Federal? I'm considering it for a carry round, and would like any feedback you may have. |
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Bad choice. This round is in its infancy and has yet to be proven reliable. With enough velocity in certain media, rounds have expanded as designed, but overall reliability is poor and in denim covered gelatin, only 2 rounds out of 17 expanded. Expansion was poor and smaller than a comperable JHP. This was the 9mm EFMJ +P loading. By comparision, all 17 rounds of 125grn +P Corbon JHP's expanded as designed. The bottom line is these rounds represent an interesting idea that has plenty of potential that has yet to be realized. At present, these would be a poor choice for carry ammunition. That being said, if HP's are illegal in your jurisdiction or your weapon won't feed conventional JHP's, these are probably your only choice. In general, EFMJ feed very reliably, much like a conventional FMJ. For weapons which reject standard JHP's it may be the only choice as they are a much better choice than standard FMJ's. Even if expansion was reliable and consistant, performance would still be inferior to a Ranger T or Gold Dot, though better than a standard FMJ. If your carry gun will have it, Gold Dots or Ranger T's should be your first choice. Give the EFMJ a few years to mature and improve before even considering them as a durty round. |
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+1 to the above i have seen a couple of articles touting the EFMJ, but they did limited and all were positive expansion tests a local gun store owner was trying to sell em to me, but i passed (he would not sell me the Win Ranger Ts  )stick to the std. JHPs, just make sure they run reliabiliy in your HG....out of curiosity, is your HG not feeding std. JHPs 100%>? if you have no problems w/ em, i would not even look at the EFMJs |
| I have shot them and they do an alright job of expanding from what I have seen. I currently use Federal HST as a self defense load, however. The Detroit police department use the EFMJ and they think it is a very good performing round out of their guns. From what I hear from their distributer they expand well and have performed well in the 9mm Sigs that the department carrys. They will do the job, shot placement is key. |
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Another side note about EFMJ and some background to why Detroit PD have adopted the round. It gets kinda cold in Michigan and people obviously wear heavy clothing in the colder months. Some HPs can tend to get clogged by clothing when shot into a suspect that is wearing heavy clothing. This in effect plugs the HP and causes SOME rounds to fail to expand and act essentially like a FMJ. EFMJ has a tiny rubber ball in the tip of the round, that when it strikes a target, pushes back into a cavity like a ballistic tip on a rifle round causing expansion. The round was designed to allow expansion through all barriers, including walls ect. It is excellent for Depts that do not allow HPs, but it is non the less effective. I brought up the fact that some people have witnessed lack of expansion in the round. From all the sources that I have gathered from the police distributor (who sells all types of ammo to most agencies in Michigan) the rounds do expand and do some serious damage to a armed suspect. As a matter of fact it is strongly reccomended to other depts over all other rounds except the HST. This includes the Ranger line of ammunition. So Far the rounds that are recommended to Michigan departments are in the the order of 1. Federal HST 2. EFMJ 3. Hornady XTP which is tied with the Hydrashock. The Ranger "T" series according to several officers there and the distributer often fail in heavy clothing and turn into a FMJ. Many officers refer to it as one of the most overrated rounds in use. Now this may be to the fact that in Michigan heavy clothing is encountered much more frequently than Florida, for example. So I would take the climate of Michigan into effect before trying to debunk the above ranking given to me. However, this doent say anything about the terminal performance of ammunition to individuals who are wearing light to moderate clothing. From what I have read the Ranger is very effective but who knows what the attackers where wearing when it was used on them. So I would say choose your ammo based on the type of clothing you would expect to face in a given climate, as well as what your gun prefers to feed/shoot. I think a study would be nice on to how heavier clothing effects rounds. I know denium is used but it certainly isnt a heavy winter or leather jacket. |
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Whomever gave you this information was obviously trying to sell EFMJ or ATK products. "Clogging" is a phenomenon most commonly experienced among 3rd generation JHP's and these weaknesses have been designed out of most 4th generation designs. The Gold Dot, HST and Ranger T perform superbly in heavy cloathing and other media.3rd generation JHP's are succeptible to "clogging" because of the design/shape of thier cavity. Two of the worst are the Hydrashok and Speer "flying ashtray". The cavity would become clogged with debris and cause failure to expand and overpenetration.Objective testing has proved that this issue has largely been resolved with the better 4th generation designs such as the Gold Dot or Ranger T. The EFMJ is an excellent idea, but it hasn't matured enough to become reliable enough for duty use. Even expanded EFMJ's are smaller than conventional JHP's of the same caliber, so even if they worked reliably they would still offer less performance. The current design depends on sufficient velocity to expand as designed, which is often not acheived. Using a shorter barrel or compensated weapon or just lot to lot variances can cause the bullet to fall below this veclocity threshold and fail. Consequently, bullets are lighter and cartridges are loaded to +P pressures. Lighter bullets and higher velocities typically make for less penetration, more recoil and muzzle flash. The Federal ISP 115grn +P+ 9mm loading is an excellent example of this phenomenon. Calling the Ranger T over rated is just plain silly. The Ranger T is consistantly one of the top performing JHP's tested. Its weakness is not heavy cloathing but possible core seperations depending on the meda/caliber/velocity. The Speer Gold Dot is also consistantly a top performer and is a bonded design, further increasing its performance in heavy cloathing. I would seriously question the motivations of anyone reccomending the EFMJ, Hydrashok or XTP for police use. The EFMJ is an interesting design and has potential but isn't reliable enough for police use. The FBI did extensive testing on the Federal Hydrashok and performance was less than satisfactory. In fact, the post makes little to no difference and its more prone than others to the clogging phenomenon you refered to. It was state of the art 15 years ago, but much better choices exist today which provide better penetration and much more reliable expansion. Some tests have shown only 1 in 3 Hydrashoks expand as designed in some media. I would hope anyone selecting ammunition for police use would know this stuff... The Hornady XTP isn't a great choice eiether. This is primarily a hunting round that was adapted to defensive use. While the requirements of a hunting JHP and defensive JHP are similar, they are not the same. A round with Optimal performance characteristics penetrates between 12 and 16 inches, above 16 inches receives a marginal rating. The XTP tends to penetrate excessively in bare gel and its performance in certain media is poor. There are just much better choices out there than the EFMJ, XTP or Hydrashok. Independent testing has proved this time and time again. Who ever gave you this information definatly had an agenda. The fact that someone reccomended the EFMJ over the HST to a major metrol police department makes me sick. I would hope ATK would hire reps who have a clue about terminal performance. |
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All rounds are fallable, and someone can pull information out of their ass to tell you that any round has failed, or is infallable. The Federal Hydra Shok is one of the top PROVEN .45 rounds. Is it perfect, no, but has stopped alot of people. We had a couple get clogged when we were testing ammo at the range, but they generally expanded consistently. The Win Silvertips were the worst for clogging. The SXT's did really well, but still had a problem with some thicker clothes. I think the one I have that didn't expand so well was against a moderately thick sweater over a t-shirt. The 9mm EFMJ was ok, but we liked the .45 EFMJ. We got some pretty good expansion out of them. |
Nope, the dealer sold all brand of ammunition. And the information I recieved was from actual police officers who tested all the rounds for their perspective departments. The reason that the distributor sold more of the EFMJ/HST was because that is what departments have requested to buy. The distributer just like any business has to supply what is in demand not what they choose. Larger departments have ammunition trials just like the military and do not simply rely on what a gun board reccomends on the internet. The story I got from several officers was the the EFMJ was well liked and performed exceptional in shootings. The state police also states the same, the rounds were not choosen because of their being more politically correct EFMJ, but because they work and are proven in many shootings by the department. Although Ranger is good it has core-jacket separation problems which have not been worked out because of the nature of the bullet design. I think people are somwhat stuck on the Talon because of its political incorrectness not JUST because of its performance. It does do better than Hydra shock in my opinion, but I dont feel its the best of rounds. Why do you not like the XTP by chance? |
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Objective results are just that, objective. The Ranger T is among the best performing JHP's availible. Repeated testing and officer involved shootings have proven the Ranger T to be an excellent bullet design. In objective laboratory testing, the EFMJ isn't in the same league as the HST,Gold Dot or Ranger T. In fact, several of the respected experts in the field have specifically reccomended against its use as a duty round. Even when the EFMJ expands as designed, its expanded diameter is smaller than that of comperable JHP's. I wasn't aware that the EFMJ had been used in any documented officer involved shootings or that it was adopted by any sizable LE agency, though I am several months "out of the loop" reguarding the EFMJ design. The fact of the matter is ballistic gel testing doesn't reguard the EFMJ as highley as other JHP designs. If the officers that are using it stand behind it and believe in it, thats probably the most important thing. While the Ranger T is consistantly one of the top performing JHP's availible, it does suffer from core seperations. This is a phenomenon that is exacerbated by certain calibers/media. The detractors of the Ranger T definatly make more of the core seperations than what is really there. The Ranger T's core integrity and retained weight is much better than 3rd generation JHP's. While I respect the Ranger T, I prefer the Gold Dot. It has just as much terminal performance but its a bonded design, so it negates the issue of core seperations. I would rank the Gold Dot as the best, with the Ranger T and HST tied for second place. I don't like the XTP because it was designed as a hunting round and adapted to defensive use. As I stated earlier, the requirements for both aren't the same. The 9mm 147grn XTP penetrated 22.1 inches in bare gelatin, which would give it a "marginal" rating as it penetrates more than 16 inches. This penetration is perfectly acceptible for a hunting round. In other tests, its solidly average or below its competition. While its not the best in terms of terminal ballistics, its likely the most accurate, which is an excellent trait to have in a hunting bullet. Its certainly not the worst choice for defensive ammunition, its far from the best. I personally believe the Gold Dot to be the best, as it offers all the terminal ballistics of the HST/Ranger T plus its a bonded bullet. |
Just want to add that a couple of years ago I put 3 rounds through a deer carcass. Expanded fine. |