[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 9mm vs. .45 (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 12/19/2012 6:44:10 AM EDT
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No, seriously. There's something that needs to be said here. There are a lot of misinformed people who believe the differences are significant, which has created a lot of push back and the pendulum has swung so far as to have a whole lot of folks, especially around here, claiming that there is NO difference between 9mm, .40, .45, and .357 Sig. in terms of terminal performance. That is simply not true. The differences are much less than are often claimed, but there are differences. To begin with, let's take a look at that same old pic that is so often referenced:
Attached File This shows similar, but not identical penetration. The bigger differences in penetration are in weight vs. caliber, though. There is no significant difference in penetration. There is, however, a measurable, though small difference in permanent cavity. To start with, this pic does not show permanent cavity. Gelatin tests don't show permanent cavity. What you see is the TSC. Permanent cavity is measured by taking the average of the maximum and minimum expansion figures from the bullet. 
As the author of our "Best Choices for Self Defense" article writes, these bullets perform similarly, but please stop telling people that they are the same. 0.62" is close to 0.74" but not identical. Generally speaking, the larger diameter bullet ends up with a larger expanded diameter and that equates to a wider permanent cavity. The difference is small, but it exists. Additionally, some bullets perform better than others through barriers and bullets in .40S&W tend to do very well in this regard. I'm not saying that one caliber is better than the other. I'm not saying that caliber in general is all that important. As we know, shot placement matters a whole hell of a lot more than anything else. I am trying to get you guys to stop telling people that there is absolutely NO difference between the service calibers. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think.
In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. That's where I'm at with it. .45acp is my favorite caliber: it's what I reload for the most and target shoot the most with, but all (save one) of my handguns that I keep for defense are 9mm, loaded with either HST or Gold Dot. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. okay, to correct one thing. its not just about expanded diameter. when people measure "expansion" they often just measure the tips across the pedals, that doesnt translate into anything. you also need to measure diameter BETWEEN the pedals, and the diameter of the pedals themselves. look at the overall surface area. i pulled this from another website: The expanded 9mm 124-gr. Gold's frontal area measures approximately 0.25 sq. inches compared to the .45's frontal expanded area of .38 sq. inches. So while the expanded diameter of the 9mm is about 81% that of the larger caliber's, the resulting frontal area of the 9mm is 66% that of the 45's. I don't find these results surprising so you get 34% more crushed tissue than the 124gr shot for shot using a 230gr 45. i carry 147 grain bullets myself, the expansion on those is usually a bit less than the 124, so the overall crushed tissue from a 230 gr to a 147 is probably going to be closer to 40-50% less crushed tissue, excluding the deeper penetration. biggest difference between pistol calibers is intermediate barrier performance. .40 and 357 sig are both excellent all around cartridges through all types of intermediate barriers. .45 lacks through metal targets (cars, truck beds, dumpsters, mailbox, newspaper dispenser, etc). 45 does perform very well through auto glass because the heavy 230 grain slugs suffer little deflection. 9mm does well through metal targets but doesnt have alot of mass and suffers more deflection through glass than the other rounds (sigs significantly higher velocity than even a +p 9mm help compensate for the weight). use what you want. pistol rounds all suck. i used to carry a .40 and i am still a big .40 advocate, but i sold them all off for 9mms when i started reloading. i dont have enough confidence in myself to reload .40 yet so i downgraded to a 9mm. ive had enough training that i'm confident the reason i walk away from a gunfight wont be because of caliber. altho if you told me i was going to get shot at today when i walked out of the house and held up a 9mm and a 45 and asked me which one i wanted to take with, i'd probably take the bigger stick. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. Or you can loose one or two rounds in capacity and compromise with a .40 |
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Quoted: Quoted: What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. Or you can loose one or two rounds in capacity and compromise with a .40 If a 9 or .45 wont take it down then you need a rifle, so why the need for a .40 when that adds more recoil as well as cost to the average citizen. Training is most important when dealing with a handgun, and the best bang for your buck is 9mm unless you are a re-loader. There is small difference between the rounds in the picture, and it does count in my book. Also with present ammo choices you really cant go wrong with all those rounds unless you factor in the cost. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. That's certainly valid and a lot of folks come to the same conclusion. I'm not trying to argue about which one is better. In fact, I'm trying to underscore the fact that each cartridge has measurable advantages and disadvantages. I just got really annoyed by hearing it repeated over and over that there is NO DIFFERENCE between terminal effect in 9mm or .45 et al. There is a difference. It is not nearly as huge as Lardo the gun store automaton would have you believe, but it does exist. For the record, I mostly carry .40 S&W because I bought by G27, G23, and G22 before I knew much about handgun wounding ballistics and I've got a fair amount invested in ammo, mags, holsters, etc. Were I to do it over, I'd be real split between 9mm and .40 because the pistol itself is far cheaper in .40 (used Glocks, anyway) while 9mm ammo is cheaper. Recoil isn't that much of a factor to me as both cartridges are soft enough to get good controlled pairs and 0.125 seconds split time isn't likely to make the difference. .40 offers better barrier performance and slightly greater crush cavity. I also sometimes carry a 1911 in .45 ACP or a Witness in 10mm. I'll even carry a Makarov or .44 Herter's SA revolver if I get a weird hair but most of the time it's my G23. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. That's certainly valid and a lot of folks come to the same conclusion. I'm not trying to argue about which one is better. In fact, I'm trying to underscore the fact that each cartridge has measurable advantages and disadvantages. I just got really annoyed by hearing it repeated over and over that there is NO DIFFERENCE between terminal effect in 9mm or .45 et al. There is a difference. It is not nearly as huge as Lardo the gun store automaton would have you believe, but it does exist. For the record, I mostly carry .40 S&W because I bought by G27, G23, and G22 before I knew much about handgun wounding ballistics and I've got a fair amount invested in ammo, mags, holsters, etc. Were I to do it over, I'd be real split between 9mm and .40 because the pistol itself is far cheaper in .40 (used Glocks, anyway) while 9mm ammo is cheaper. Recoil isn't that much of a factor to me as both cartridges are soft enough to get good controlled pairs and 0.125 seconds split time isn't likely to make the difference. .40 offers better barrier performance and slightly greater crush cavity. I also sometimes carry a 1911 in .45 ACP or a Witness in 10mm. I'll even carry a Makarov or .44 Herter's SA revolver if I get a weird hair but most of the time it's my G23. All well and good. Use what you shoot well and what makes you happy. A bigger hole *might* make for faster bleed-out, but bleed-out as a mechanism of stopping people is pretty slow. If you don't get a "psychological" ("ok, i just got shot and now I want to quit") stop the perp can have quite a bit of time to kill you. CNS hits aside, it may take quite a few rounds to get the perp to the "I want to quit" point. Remember that cop that emptied a .357 into a perp with a .22? Cop died, perp lived. I really don't put any faith in anything less than a rifle, but even then all that matters is the perp stops attacking you. Plenty of cases from the battlefield where they keep going until their bodies are physically disabled. |
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Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV.
The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. That's certainly valid and a lot of folks come to the same conclusion. I'm not trying to argue about which one is better. In fact, I'm trying to underscore the fact that each cartridge has measurable advantages and disadvantages. I just got really annoyed by hearing it repeated over and over that there is NO DIFFERENCE between terminal effect in 9mm or .45 et al. There is a difference. It is not nearly as huge as Lardo the gun store automaton would have you believe, but it does exist. For the record, I mostly carry .40 S&W because I bought by G27, G23, and G22 before I knew much about handgun wounding ballistics and I've got a fair amount invested in ammo, mags, holsters, etc. Were I to do it over, I'd be real split between 9mm and .40 because the pistol itself is far cheaper in .40 (used Glocks, anyway) while 9mm ammo is cheaper. Recoil isn't that much of a factor to me as both cartridges are soft enough to get good controlled pairs and 0.125 seconds split time isn't likely to make the difference. .40 offers better barrier performance and slightly greater crush cavity. I also sometimes carry a 1911 in .45 ACP or a Witness in 10mm. I'll even carry a Makarov or .44 Herter's SA revolver if I get a weird hair but most of the time it's my G23. All well and good. Use what you shoot well and what makes you happy. A bigger hole *might* make for faster bleed-out, but bleed-out as a mechanism of stopping people is pretty slow. If you don't get a "psychological" ("ok, i just got shot and now I want to quit") stop the perp can have quite a bit of time to kill you. CNS hits aside, it may take quite a few rounds to get the perp to the "I want to quit" point. Remember that cop that emptied a .357 into a perp with a .22? Cop died, perp lived. I really don't put any faith in anything less than a rifle, but even then all that matters is the perp stops attacking you. Plenty of cases from the battlefield where they keep going until their bodies are physically disabled. Absolutely. Assuming the use of a reliable gun chambered in a center fire cartridge, the most important factor is going to be how compete YOU are with YOUR gun. The minor difference in expanded diameter isn't likely to make the difference between a CNS hit or not and the perp isn't likely to know what cartridge he got shot with ("Oh, snap, he zapped me with a .487 megablast, I'm a goner" vs. "Pfft. That's just a nine."). A CNS hit or psychological "stop" are the only ways people stop right away but failing those, hydraulic failure is the only mechanism that will eventually cause them to stop. It is slow and you may sustain mortal wounds before the aggressor actually stops, but it is what it is. A larger crush cavity can promote faster bleeding. It's also worth noting that hits involving the vena cava, aorta, and other very large blood vessels can result in relatively quick stops. Again, I agree. Handguns suck. Statistically, most people shot with a handgun survive. |
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Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV. The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. Sorry, but anecdotal evidence is just not very reliable. There are mountains of data available for actual shootings as well as well considered analysis and libraries of gelatin test data. It would be to your benefit to do some reading on the subject. There is a difference in crush cavity between the two calibers but the difference is not huge. More importantly, a 9mm modern JHP will be FAR more effective than .45 ball. Modern JHP expands very reliably. There is no reason to put any credence in the old saw that "a 9mm might expand but a .45 won't shrink." They both suck donkey nuts as ball ammo and they both reliably expand if a modern JHP is used. I guess what I'm saying is it's foolish to say there is absolutely no difference between the two cartridges and it is even more foolish to propose that the difference is substantial. Notable? Measurable? Yes. Is it worth the tradeoffs? That's for you to decide. |
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Quoted: Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV. The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. Evidence to back up your claims? I think most of us all know that a .45 will do more damage over a 9mm but not by much, and id like to meet the guy who was shot in the head with a 9mm. |
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Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV. The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. Evidence to back up your claims? I think most of us all know that a .45 will do more damage over a 9mm but not by much, and id like to meet the guy who was shot in the head with a 9mm. There was a kid on Montel Williams who got shot in the head with a .357 mag during a robbery while he was working at a convenience store. Took a large portion of his brain and he survived. |
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ive seen several people who suffered headshots and survived. there was a kid on the news not too long ago in florida who got shot in the head by a spear gun in the middle of the ocean. he survived. i remember several cases on unsolved mysteries of people being shot in the head and surviving. its actually not as uncommon as you'd think.
rocky...your post is full of crap. there have been MANY cases of bg's and cops being shot by 45s and talking coherently after the shooting. no 2 people respond to injuries like everyone else. no 2 gunshot wounds are the same. 45 is bigger yes, but at the end of the day pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. |
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Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV. The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45—six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot—without any significant effect on his fighting ability. This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market. Unfortunately, such resistance to gunfire is not particularly unusual in police shootings. The human body can stand up to an incredible amount of punishment, especially when fueled by alcohol, drugs, mental illness, anger or other strong emotion. In this case, Mettinger's near superhuman ability to take rounds appeared to have been bolstered by alcohol-induced rage, but sometimes the only identifiable explanation for such resistance to gunfire is sheer willpower. Regardless of the reason, it is alarming and distracting to face an armed assailant who seems impervious to your gunfire. http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific Sorry if you .45 guys believe your own fairy tales of dependable "stopping power". |
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Quoted: Quoted: Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV. The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45—six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot—without any significant effect on his fighting ability. This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market. Unfortunately, such resistance to gunfire is not particularly unusual in police shootings. The human body can stand up to an incredible amount of punishment, especially when fueled by alcohol, drugs, mental illness, anger or other strong emotion. In this case, Mettinger's near superhuman ability to take rounds appeared to have been bolstered by alcohol-induced rage, but sometimes the only identifiable explanation for such resistance to gunfire is sheer willpower. Regardless of the reason, it is alarming and distracting to face an armed assailant who seems impervious to your gunfire. http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific Sorry if you .45 guys believe your own fairy tales of dependable "stopping power". Just the proof I wanted to see. It is pretty crazy that those people survived head shots as well. |
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Service pistol caliber does not matter.
Pistols suck; get over it. Carry what you want to carry. .40 is more powerful than 9mm, but not enough to matter. .45 is bigger, but not enough to matter. It's like 12 gauge standard 00 vs 12 gauge reduced recoil 00. Standard is more powerful, but it doesn't matter agaist a human target. Both will shoot through a human, so that extra few hundred feet per second doesn't matter. Or .243 Winchester vs .30-06 on a white tail deer. The .30 is bigger and more powerful, but both are typically one shot kills on a deer. The obsession with caliber is childish. Carry what you want. It all sucks anyway. Capacity is king. Mindset > Tactics > Skill > Gear |
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Heres the way I see it and here it. YMMV. The local fireman and medics here respond to shootings all the time and if the shooter is using premium ammo and the shot is dead center mass or to the head the person shot is going to go down. However they have seen a many a person shot with 9MM in the torso,head,throat,or hips and they sit there and talk to medic normal till they are transported to the hospital. The fireman and medics say they have never seen a person sit and talk normal after being hit with a 230 grain 45ACP Hardball or hollowpoint anywhere in the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips that was able to talk or act coherent. The 45 seems to take more wind out of the persons sails. The most used handgun caliber they see is 38 special and it too does a good job if the person is shot in a good vital area, however they have seen many a person sit and talk normal with a shot to the torso,head,throat, shoulders or hips. Sorry if you 9mm guys are mad at the facts that a 230 grain bullet is just going to do more damage and trauma than a 147 grain bullet. A 9mm can expand as big as a 45 or stay the size of a 9mm, however a 45 will always be as big as a 45 or get even bigger. Mettinger absorbed nine rounds from Borders' .45—six of which hit him in the torso and two more of which literally severed his right foot—without any significant effect on his fighting ability. This would have been remarkable even if Officer Borders had been firing marginally effective rounds, but he was using .45 caliber Gold Dot ammunition, which is considered by many to be the best man-stopper on the market. Unfortunately, such resistance to gunfire is not particularly unusual in police shootings. The human body can stand up to an incredible amount of punishment, especially when fueled by alcohol, drugs, mental illness, anger or other strong emotion. In this case, Mettinger's near superhuman ability to take rounds appeared to have been bolstered by alcohol-induced rage, but sometimes the only identifiable explanation for such resistance to gunfire is sheer willpower. Regardless of the reason, it is alarming and distracting to face an armed assailant who seems impervious to your gunfire. http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-warriors-sacrific Sorry if you .45 guys believe your own fairy tales of dependable "stopping power". Just the proof I wanted to see. It is pretty crazy that those people survived head shots as well. Here's another gem of stopping power myth busting: http://www.theshootist.net/2009/01/one-man-got-involved-perry_12.html |
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I like how the mantra of "Pistols suck for stopping" gets run around and repeated time and time again. While it's obviously not rifle ballistics, handguns stop badguys pretty well, given good shot placement and deep penetrating rounds. Watch a few guys get hit in the CNS and drop like a sack of potatoes, and confidence in handguns will go up. |
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When we compare handguns to long guns, the best comparision is subguns and shotguns. High velocity rifles create massive temporal cavities, something that low velocity rounds cannot do. A subgun or shotgun basically puts many pistol rounds on target very rapidly.
Within range, 00 buck is 9 rounds of .33 caliber pellets flying at pistol velocity striking the target all at once. The 12 gauge has long been regarded as an excellent manstopper, within its range limitations. A properly employed subgun puts a short burst of three to six pistol rounds on target. Numerous, rapid hits of pistol ammunition. Both the subgun and the shotgun have been abandoned as primary weapons by both police entry teams and the military. The 5.56 autoloading rifle is superior in almost all aspects. It offers increased range, trajectory, accuracy, and terminal effect. The shotgun has mostly been relegated to door breaching and less leathal rounds. The subgun is now primarily used in a specialized supressed role. Pistols are great at being small. Service pistol cartridges are not great fight stoppers. Caliber is irrelevant; multiple hits to center line is the most effective way to use the pistol. God put all the important stuff in one place. Hits to the heart and lungs shuts down the circulatory system. Hits to the CNS, both the brain and the upper spine, shuts everything down. Some fights are won when the bad guy gives up, but some bad guys are more determined than others. Rage, drugs, and/or mental mindset can allow a bad guy to take multiple lethal rounds and keep fighting until blood pressure drops enough to shut down the brain. There is no guaranteed one shot stop, unless the round destroys the CNS. However, the brain is a tough target because the skull is designed to protect it and he spine acts as armor for the spinal cord. This is why most commonly we aim for centerline. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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But then again, I forgot that the .45 was magic and can produce one shot stops without fail regardless of shot placement. Ah, but it loses it's magic if fired from a pistol other than a 1911. HK Mk23 has some kind of Teutonic technical engineering advantage as well, since it's an offensive weapon. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
| We fool ourselves all the time to support our bias or fuel our ignorance. No reason it should be different here. Same means identical. Not the same means different. On the scale of service caliber HP effectiveness there is a tangible and real difference in aggregate performance that favors heavier objects within and between caliber. I choose 9mm and .45acp for different reasons and in different applications. I'll choose a 12 gauge when I can over either. But, I've stopped really caring to enlighten folks for the most part much of the time. I'll continue that disinterest here and conclude my reply. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. okay, to correct one thing. its not just about expanded diameter. when people measure "expansion" they often just measure the tips across the pedals, that doesnt translate into anything. you also need to measure diameter BETWEEN the pedals, and the diameter of the pedals themselves. look at the overall surface area. i pulled this from another website: The expanded 9mm 124-gr. Gold's frontal area measures approximately 0.25 sq. inches compared to the .45's frontal expanded area of .38 sq. inches. So while the expanded diameter of the 9mm is about 81% that of the larger caliber's, the resulting frontal area of the 9mm is 66% that of the 45's. I don't find these results surprising so you get 34% more crushed tissue than the 124gr shot for shot using a 230gr 45. i carry 147 grain bullets myself, the expansion on those is usually a bit less than the 124, so the overall crushed tissue from a 230 gr to a 147 is probably going to be closer to 40-50% less crushed tissue, excluding the deeper penetration. biggest difference between pistol calibers is intermediate barrier performance. .40 and 357 sig are both excellent all around cartridges through all types of intermediate barriers. .45 lacks through metal targets (cars, truck beds, dumpsters, mailbox, newspaper dispenser, etc). 45 does perform very well through auto glass because the heavy 230 grain slugs suffer little deflection. 9mm does well through metal targets but doesnt have alot of mass and suffers more deflection through glass than the other rounds (sigs significantly higher velocity than even a +p 9mm help compensate for the weight). use what you want. pistol rounds all suck. i used to carry a .40 and i am still a big .40 advocate, but i sold them all off for 9mms when i started reloading. i dont have enough confidence in myself to reload .40 yet so i downgraded to a 9mm. ive had enough training that i'm confident the reason i walk away from a gunfight wont be because of caliber. altho if you told me i was going to get shot at today when i walked out of the house and held up a 9mm and a 45 and asked me which one i wanted to take with, i'd probably take the bigger stick. Off topic sorry I started the same time loading the 40 and 9mm in the late 90`s I had a good friend who shot matches all the time.Plus he was my gun smith as well. He told me to grab a AA manual and powders for the 40S&W Your not going to find real hot loads but I will tell you that who ever did the loadings for the 40 knew there shit. There 200 gr and 180 gr loads are higly accurate out of my Gen 1 P229 The best part is if you have a Dillon reloader. Mine loves AA pistol powders . Anyway if this country boy can do it so can you. |
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and id like to meet the guy who was shot in the head with a 9mm. I happen to personally know 4 that got shot in the head. ( 3 guys and a gal.) But with 38spl ( dont know the type of load other than 38spl) Out of the hospital the next day with no major problems . Charlie return fire and killed the BG after being shot in the forehead Charlie girl friend Sondra was hit in the mouth during the shooting by BG. The other 2 guys Mike and Randy was shot by theres wives. Mike in the mouth and Randy in the forehead. I dont think I would go for the head myself unless thats all I got. |
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Quoted: Quoted: and id like to meet the guy who was shot in the head with a 9mm. I happen to personally know 4 that got shot in the head. ( 3 guys and a gal.) But with 38spl ( dont know the type of load other than 38spl) Out of the hospital the next day with no major problems . Charlie return fire and killed the BG after being shot in the forehead Charlie girl friend Sondra was hit in the mouth during the shooting by BG. The other 2 guys Mike and Randy was shot by theres wives. Mike in the mouth and Randy in the forehead. I dont think I would go for the head myself unless thats all I got. Damn 4 people. I barley know 1 guy who was shot in the shoulder. |
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9 v 40
9 v 45 yada yada yada... ill tell you the same thing i tell my friends who run .40's and .45's and tout that theirs is the best: "ill shoot you, then you shoot me, k?" nuff said. i skimmed the thread after the first post, so forgive me if i repeat anything here, but shot placement, cheaper ammo (cheaper practice), typically carry more rounds, etc, etc, that's why im a 9! -jack |
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It's simple. Shoot what YOU feel safe carrying and then practice, practice, and practice some more. Shot placement is key no matter if your shooting a 22 or a 500 Magnum. Take a lung with a .22 and then with a .500 Magnum and see which causes enough damage to end the fight. Achieve a hit to the pelvis with a .22 and the an identical hit with a .500 Magnum and see which causes enough damage to end the fight. In an actual gunfight you will be lucky to achieve any sort of quality hits all. You never, ever, want to be outgunned by your opponent; popular Internet memes regarding shot placement notwithstanding. And on the internet " it works for me" means "it's effortless for me to carry"; rather that it "works for me" meaning having actually dispatched numerous assailants who were also armed with a firearm. Another favorite: ".380 is adequate "when they are up close and personal". The closer they are; the bigger the gun I want in my hand if things turn to shit. |
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It's had to pick 1 caliber over another, I lke them all!!!!
I love shooting 9mm's in my 38spl/357's. .357 bullets made out of 9mm cases. http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38hbwcs.jpg And I think the 40s&w is outstanding!!! They make great bullets for my 44spl/mag's. Some 44spl's loaded with bullets made out of 40s&w cases. http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/all_zps78033e85.jpg When it comes down to it I'll stay with my 1911 full of 185g hp's & a 44spl for a belly gun. |
 Here goes my 2 cents:
What it boils down to is the transfer of energy to a target, with that said, Sorry boys, size matters. Basic physics, the larger a travelling masses is, the greater energy transfer potential by nature. We can hit all these 'side arguments' but I point to my first two sentences again. With shot placement being the same, the bigger bullet wins in the game of lethality. To keep this comparison on track we should agree we are talking about similar shot placement with a well trained shooter with different rounds. Otherwise we will get lost in the weeds..... I don’t tout the effectiveness of smaller rounds, I just feel the comparison is framed on which kills faster. |
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Quoted: While I agree with the first 2 sentences I just don't get how a .45 can make someone more dead over a 9mm with the same shot placement assuming their both dead. I do however understand that the .45 hole will be bigger and look like nastier compared to a 9mm but how does it make one more dead? Excuse my ignorance please.Here goes my 2 cents:What it boils down to is the transfer of energy to a target, with that said, Sorry boys, size matters. Basic physics, the larger a travelling masses is, the greater energy transfer potential by nature. We can hit all these 'side arguments' but I point to my first two sentences again. With shot placement being the same, the bigger bullet wins in the game of lethality. To keep this comparison on track we should agree we are talking about similar shot placement with a well trained shooter with different rounds. Otherwise we will get lost in the weeds..... I don’t tout the effectiveness of smaller rounds, I just feel the comparison is framed on which kills faster. |
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and id like to meet the guy who was shot in the head with a 9mm. I happen to personally know 4 that got shot in the head. ( 3 guys and a gal.) But with 38spl ( dont know the type of load other than 38spl) Out of the hospital the next day with no major problems . Charlie return fire and killed the BG after being shot in the forehead Charlie girl friend Sondra was hit in the mouth during the shooting by BG. The other 2 guys Mike and Randy was shot by theres wives. Mike in the mouth and Randy in the forehead. I dont think I would go for the head myself unless thats all I got. Damn 4 people. I barley know 1 guy who was shot in the shoulder. I also know a guy who has been in a gun fight 3 times. Guess thats what happen when you own a bar. |
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The skull is designed to protect the brain. To get a bullet into the skull, you aim for the triangle made by the eyes and nose. This can also be described as a "T." http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad346/TexasPistols/591763AB-142C-4291-A803-DFF5FC95C4F1-4083-000003E17B4E0946.jpg Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Ya I know where to put the bullet. its a very small target. and under stress. Just dont think I would go for it unless thats all I had. |
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The skull is designed to protect the brain. To get a bullet into the skull, you aim for the triangle made by the eyes and nose. This can also be described as a "T." http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad346/TexasPistols/591763AB-142C-4291-A803-DFF5FC95C4F1-4083-000003E17B4E0946.jpg Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Ya I know where to put the bullet. its a very small target. and under stress. Just dont think I would go for it unless thats all I had. I wasn't ragging on you at all, I was helping to prove your point. The head is a small target and hard to hit, getting a pistol bullet into the brain stem through the skull is even more difficult. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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The skull is designed to protect the brain. To get a bullet into the skull, you aim for the triangle made by the eyes and nose. This can also be described as a "T." http://i950.photobucket.com/albums/ad346/TexasPistols/591763AB-142C-4291-A803-DFF5FC95C4F1-4083-000003E17B4E0946.jpg Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Ya I know where to put the bullet. its a very small target. and under stress. Just dont think I would go for it unless thats all I had. I wasn't ragging on you at all, I was helping to prove your point. The head is a small target and hard to hit, getting a pistol bullet into the brain stem through the skull is even more difficult. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile My bad and thank you. |
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What do you get in exchange for 0.12"? Lower mag capacity, more recoil, slower to get back on target, etc.. The odds of the extra 0.12" meaning the difference between hitting and missing a major vessel or vital organ is less than you think. In the big picture 9 looks pretty good by comparison. That's where I'm at with it. .45acp is my favorite caliber: it's what I reload for the most and target shoot the most with, but all (save one) of my handguns that I keep for defense are 9mm, loaded with either HST or Gold Dot. +2 Same here Might as well have a say. Ive held a ccw pemit since the 80`s . And have carried a variety of handguns from revolvers to pistols. mainly JKL Frames ,Colt 1911 45acp & Mustang 380acp,S&W5906/6906 9mm, Sip P229 40S&W When I use to carry revolvers for SD a M19 & M37 I would stoke ithe M19 with full power 357magnum loads from 125gr SJHP to 158gr SWC H. P. I was lucky to have my own range in my back yard so lots of practice. Anway during practice I found I could shoot faster and more accurately using 38spl and 38spl +P. More bullets on the BG so I switch to 38spl +P 158gr SWC HP for SD. The only reason now Ithat I carry a Gen 1 P229 40S&W I cant afford to update to another 9mm. I bought the P229 back when the 9mm had some problems expanding and put my 6906 in the safe . Still have her though  .
When and if I get the cash for the next pistol it will be a 9mm .And it will be loaded with standard pressure 9mm 124gr or 147gr loads . I truly think the less recoil the better for ccw use Im also a big fan of the 5.56mm over other higher calibers carbine again less recoil faster follow up. |
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While I agree with the first 2 sentences I just don't get how a .45 can make someone more dead over a 9mm with the same shot placement assuming their both dead. I do however understand that the .45 hole will be bigger and look like nastier compared to a 9mm but how does it make one more dead? Excuse my ignorance please.
Here goes my 2 cents:
What it boils down to is the transfer of energy to a target, with that said, Sorry boys, size matters. Basic physics, the larger a travelling masses is, the greater energy transfer potential by nature. We can hit all these 'side arguments' but I point to my first two sentences again. With shot placement being the same, the bigger bullet wins in the game of lethality. To keep this comparison on track we should agree we are talking about similar shot placement with a well trained shooter with different rounds. Otherwise we will get lost in the weeds..... I don’t tout the effectiveness of smaller rounds, I just feel the comparison is framed on which kills faster. That's because your starting with the assumption that both bad guys are dead and that dead is the goal. Let's start with a less than perfect, but still decent shot placement, such as a bullet that passes through one lung, but misses the spine, aorta, and vena cava. One or more major pulmonary vessels are involved. Whether a .45 or 9mm are used, the wound is likely to be fatal if not treated and will bleed enough to result in incapacitation. The .45 will promote faster bleeding, though, and that results in quicker incapacitation. The difference isn't huge but it does exist. It's reasonable to take that difference into account and decide that you would rather have more chances to get that CNS hit. It's also reasonable to select 9mm for cost or recoil reasons. It's not reasonable to pretend as though the difference doesn't exist. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: While I agree with the first 2 sentences I just don't get how a .45 can make someone more dead over a 9mm with the same shot placement assuming their both dead. I do however understand that the .45 hole will be bigger and look like nastier compared to a 9mm but how does it make one more dead? Excuse my ignorance please.Here goes my 2 cents:What it boils down to is the transfer of energy to a target, with that said, Sorry boys, size matters. Basic physics, the larger a travelling masses is, the greater energy transfer potential by nature. We can hit all these 'side arguments' but I point to my first two sentences again. With shot placement being the same, the bigger bullet wins in the game of lethality. To keep this comparison on track we should agree we are talking about similar shot placement with a well trained shooter with different rounds. Otherwise we will get lost in the weeds..... I don’t tout the effectiveness of smaller rounds, I just feel the comparison is framed on which kills faster. That's because your starting with the assumption that both bad guys are dead and that dead is the goal. Let's start with a less than perfect, but still decent shot placement, such as a bullet that passes through one lung, but misses the spine, aorta, and vena cava. One or more major pulmonary vessels are involved. Whether a .45 or 9mm are used, the wound is likely to be fatal if not treated and will bleed enough to result in incapacitation. The .45 will promote faster bleeding, though, and that results in quicker incapacitation. The difference isn't huge but it does exist. It's reasonable to take that difference into account and decide that you would rather have more chances to get that CNS hit. It's also reasonable to select 9mm for cost or recoil reasons. It's not reasonable to pretend as though the difference doesn't exist. So then in that case how much faster will the bad guy die from a .45 vs 9mm? thanks for the response btw. |