Posted: 7/17/2011 12:27:11 PM EDT
| Is the 40 caliber ammo standard load equivalent to what would be called a +p or +p+ in comparison to normal powder loads in other calibers? I am asking because I was a little surprised at the pop when I shot mine for the first time. I've shot all calibers and loads so its not like I am totally clueless. |
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The .40 S&W (short and whimpy) was designed to allow the same reduced power 10mm load developed by the FBI to be used in smaller 9mm framed autos. They did it by taking the 10mm and just shortening it to remove the dead air space.
The 10mm was neutered by the FBI as they viewed the full power version as being a bit much for some shooters. Consequently it's hard to look at the .40 S&W as being +P and as far as I know SAAMI does not have a +P standard for the .40 S&W. 9mm and .40 S&W both have a max average pressure of 35,000 psi while the longer 10mm operates at 37,500 psi. So in terms of both length and pressure the .40 S&W and 10mm are analogous to the .38 special and .357 Magnum - just developed in reverse order. |
It's not a +P its acutally like 10mm MINUS - P.  Honestly the 155 gr loads are the best and the 180 s not so much. I was really disappointed when I shot a deer with a 40 S&W with a Win Ranger 180. It made for a long walk in the snow.
WILL Bring Enough Gun Next Time. |
| Not sure why people complain about the .40...If you don't like it fine, but its not wimpy. With the 10mm you have to worry about over penetration and is a big concern for law enforcement. As far as +P goes, my loaders manual (an older one from the 90s) has max Pressure CUP at 23000 for the .40 and the 9mm at 32000. |
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Pressures used to be specified in CUP - due to the copper crush systems used then to measure pressure. Now it's a lot more common to reference pressure in psi as the measurements are done in psi. CUP and psi are not the same and it's not really possible to compare or convert one to the other without doing side by side testing and conversion with individual cartridges.
Again - SAAMI spec for 9mm and .40 S&W is 35,000 psi, its 37,500 psi for 10mm and 38,500 psi for 9mm +P. ––––- The problem with 10mm is not over penetration (all it takes to prevent that is proper bullet design) and once an HP properly expands, more velocity does not mean more penetration as higher velocity usually just means more rapid / earlier expansion. The issue with 10mm was the fairly sharp recoil and problems some people had shooting it. Beyond that, since performance was in excess of what was needed, loading it down was amquick and easy solution to improve the accuracy of the average officer shooting it. .40 S&W then just did away with the unneeded case length. |
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Quoted:
Is the 40 caliber ammo standard load equivalent to what would be called a +p or +p+ in comparison to normal powder loads in other calibers? I am asking because I was a little surprised at the pop when I shot mine for the first time. I've shot all calibers and loads so its not like I am totally clueless. What pistol and ammo? 180's are usually softer shooting w/ slightly better penetration. 155 Rangers had the most recoil of what I've shot. |
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Quoted:
Pressures used to be specified in CUP - due to the copper crush systems used then to measure pressure. Now it's a lot more common to reference pressure in psi as the measurements are done in psi. CUP and psi are not the same and it's not really possible to compare or convert one to the other without doing side by side testing and conversion with individual cartridges. Again - SAAMI spec for 9mm and .40 S&W is 35,000 psi, its 37,500 psi for 10mm and 38,500 psi for 9mm +P. ––––- The problem with 10mm is not over penetration (all it takes to prevent that is proper bullet design) and once an HP properly expands, more velocity does not mean more penetration as higher velocity usually just means more rapid / earlier expansion. The issue with 10mm was the fairly sharp recoil and problems some people had shooting it. Beyond that, since performance was in excess of what was needed, loading it down was amquick and easy solution to improve the accuracy of the average officer shooting it. .40 S&W then just did away with the unneeded case length. I know that the recoil is why it was never adopted, but modern bullets today with a full powder load have a hard time keeping the 10mm below 16" in gelatin. My only info resource for this round at this point.... I couldn't find any new resources so maybe somebody could do a test????? I would but I don't have a 10mm nor ballistic gel. Modern bullets should expand after the first inch, and higher velocity will mean deeper penetration, as most hollow points in .40 have a hard time expanding past .7" from what I've seen online. Once you get past 16" your looking at over penetration in my book. I know that CUP is not used anymore, but like I said my book is old and need to get a new one. |
| The solution to overpenetration in most cases is a lighter bullet. In most pistol rounds with a ".4" in the caliber people tend to opt for more weight to ensure adequate penetration. However with 10mm you need to step down in bullet weight. Look at data in the 155-170 grain weight range and you will find a lot more bullets with 12-13" of penetration in ballistic gelatin. |
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Daisycutter123,
I was shooting a SIG P229 for the first time with basic Federal 180 grain ammo that the range supplied. I guess I just have to shoot it more to get use to it. I was expecting it to be like my 45 and was a little surprised. All my other handguns are steel which helps with the recoil. This one has a very light aluminum lower. Thanks to everyone for the input. |
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Quoted:
Daisycutter123, I was shooting a SIG P229 for the first time with basic Federal 180 grain ammo that the range supplied. I guess I just have to shoot it more to get use to it. I was expecting it to be like my 45 and was a little surprised. All my other handguns are steel which helps with the recoil. This one has a very light aluminum lower. Thanks to everyone for the input. ^^^^^^^ 
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| OP, the .40 is a great caliber. Its second favorite on my list behind .45acp. When I first got into .40's I shot 155 grain ammo and it had a lot of pop, even for me, a guy who is NOT recoil sensitive. I went to 180 grain ammo and it feels like a 9mm to me with that load. The 180 grain ammo loadings have a good bit less recoil than 155 and 165 loadings so I suggest you train with 180 ball and use 180 grain self defense ammo as well. You didn't mention what gun you were using and didn't mention the ammo either. |
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OP, the .40 is a great caliber. Its second favorite on my list behind .45acp. When I first got into .40's I shot 155 grain ammo and it had a lot of pop, even for me, a guy who is NOT recoil sensitive. I went to 180 grain ammo and it feels like a 9mm to me with that load. The 180 grain ammo loadings have a good bit less recoil than 155 and 165 loadings so I suggest you train with 180 ball and use 180 grain self defense ammo as well. You didn't mention what gun you were using and didn't mention the ammo either. I have noticed this exact same phenomenon. The light loads all have a pretty good snap to them. The 180s are very smooth shooting. 180s are all I carry and shoot in .40. YMMV, of course. |
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Quoted:
The solution to overpenetration in most cases is a lighter bullet. In most pistol rounds with a ".4" in the caliber people tend to opt for more weight to ensure adequate penetration. However with 10mm you need to step down in bullet weight. Look at data in the 155-170 grain weight range and you will find a lot more bullets with 12-13" of penetration in ballistic gelatin. Good point. |
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Quoted:
The solution to overpenetration in most cases is a lighter bullet. In most pistol rounds with a ".4" in the caliber people tend to opt for more weight to ensure adequate penetration. However with 10mm you need to step down in bullet weight. Look at data in the 155-170 grain weight range and you will find a lot more bullets with 12-13" of penetration in ballistic gelatin. Although this thread has been sidetracked into 10mm, "The solution to overpenetration" was the .40, why carry a bigger, heavier pistol for the same results. The 10mm is great for what it is(had one for 20 years),but if you don't need the penetration ....................... Back on track w/ the OP. 180's. |
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Quoted:
Daisycutter123, I was shooting a SIG P229 for the first time with basic Federal 180 grain ammo that the range supplied. I guess I just have to shoot it more to get use to it. I was expecting it to be like my 45 and was a little surprised. All my other handguns are steel which helps with the recoil. This one has a very light aluminum lower. Thanks to everyone for the input. When shooting 180gr load in my P229 It feels the same as shooting my 9mm +P Unless Im shooting Full power loads in 135 to 155gr They have more Flash and Bite Ive own all 3calibers 9mm,40,45acp The recoil seems pretty close with them all The only recoil I dont like is a full power 357magnum load in a J or K frame snub |
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Daisycutter123, I was shooting a SIG P229 for the first time with basic Federal 180 grain ammo that the range supplied. I guess I just have to shoot it more to get use to it. I was expecting it to be like my 45 and was a little surprised. All my other handguns are steel which helps with the recoil. This one has a very light aluminum lower. Thanks to everyone for the input. When shooting 180gr load in my P229 It feels the same as shooting my 9mm +P Unless Im shooting Full power loads in 135 to 155gr They have more Flash and Bite Ive own all 3calibers 9mm,40,45acp The recoil seems pretty close with them all The only recoil I dont like is a full power 357magnum load in a J or K frame snub Shooting a 180 grain .40 is exactly like shooting 9mm+P, is a great comparison of recoil characteristics. That's about an accurate comparison as I've seen. Shooting |
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Daisycutter123, I was shooting a SIG P229 for the first time with basic Federal 180 grain ammo that the range supplied. I guess I just have to shoot it more to get use to it. I was expecting it to be like my 45 and was a little surprised. All my other handguns are steel which helps with the recoil. This one has a very light aluminum lower. Thanks to everyone for the input. When shooting 180gr load in my P229 It feels the same as shooting my 9mm +P Unless Im shooting Full power loads in 135 to 155gr They have more Flash and Bite Ive own all 3calibers 9mm,40,45acp The recoil seems pretty close with them all The only recoil I dont like is a full power 357magnum load in a J or K frame snub Shooting a 180 grain .40 is exactly like shooting 9mm+P, is a great comparison of recoil characteristics. That's about an accurate comparison as I've seen. Shooting Indeed it is. |
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Of interest in 40 vs 10mm discussion: Hmm...guy crawled about 30 feet with (8) 10mm rounds in him...i guess shot placement key with either round..from 1989, i think he was carrying a Colt Delta Elite. Former Houston Police Chief Lee P. Brown fired Tschirhart for what he called an unjustified shooting . Holmes wouldn't comment on the latest grand jury interest in the shooting of Gillum. Holmes has said repeatedly that he doubts Tschirhart could be convicted of wrongdoing in the Nov. 15 shooting . Gillum, 24, died after being shot eight times by 10mm bullets after his car was stopped near the University of Houston campus by Tschirhart, 27, for a traffic violation. After ordering the security guard to get out of his car and away from a revolver in the vehicle's front seat, Tschirhart shot Gillum four times inside the car. Fatally wounded, Gillum leaped out his right front window and then was struck in the back by another four-shot volley fired by Tschirhart. |