Posted: 2/26/2005 2:44:16 PM EDT
| I was wondering how difficult these are to build? |
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For someone new to 1911s, but with experience building other guns, it's relatively straight forward. If you've never at least detail stripped any firearm, but you are mechanically incllined, it's easy enough to learn. The only problem is that there are so many parts out there that are not to spec, or require extensive fitting, or are of horrible quality. My advice is to find a friend who has the experience, or go to the hometown section and see if someone in your area wants to help you learn. Also, there is a wealth of information out there to help you. There are two books by Jerry Kuhnhausen (The Colt .45 Automatic, a Shop Manual, and The U.S. M1911/A1 Pistols and commercial M1911 type pistols, A Shop Manual - Volume 2) that are about as detailed as can be, though they assume the reader can already detail strip a 1911. A much more basic book is Hallock's .45s. One of the best resources is Brownells. They carry the world's largest supply of gunsmithing and gun parts, and they also offer the above books, as well as videos and other books regarding the 1911. They also have a tutorial online that details how to build a 1911. Brownells website: www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/home/default.aspx Brownells online tutorials (for various guns): www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/newsletterarchive.aspx |
| Spend some time reading on this site: The M-1911 Pistols Organization. |
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No experience, but I've been thinking about giving this a try. Patriot 1911 |
Uh, $500 for an online class? Go to Brownells and read over their online tutorial. It's free. Though you could do this Patriot thing and end up with a nice pistol, it would not be worth the $3,500 this guy claims. Hardly any custom 1911 will bring that much, even though it might have that much in parts and labor. Save the $500 and buy a decent base 1911, like a Springfield Mil-Spec, GI model, or Colt 1991. Then, learn some small gunsmithing projects on your own, doing a little at a time. If you follow the how to's on Brownells site, you can learn more about building a 1911 than you would on the Patriot course. Either way, good luck, and take the 1911 plunge. 
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I just completed my first. My two pieces of advice are: 1. Spend lots of time on 1911fourm.com 2. Buy only name brand parts. Do not buy the Sarco builders kit, It is junk. I almost abandoned my project because i tried to use that junk. Literally the only thing I used from the whole kit was the Brazilian slide, which I could have bought for $50.00 The kit cost me 180.00 with shipping. Every piece in it was out of spec. You can find lots of name brand parts on Ebay and the gun boards. |
Maybe it's too late to influence anyone, but some poor lost soul may read this and be warned. I will do up a nice Web site someday and document all this, but be ready for the following:
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That has to be the BEST explaination with the pros and cons of building a 1911
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+1 . Personally, I think it deserves a tack, since it conscisely sums up what the new guy needs to know when considering building a 1911. |
| Im working on a 1911A1 myself, and if you hunt around for all GI parts, the project will go together much smoother. Yes, forget about saving money, This basic field gun will probably cost me around a grand, thats IF nothing goes wrong, and it will. However, while I do enjoy some of the work envolved, the biggest reward for me is staying off that pesky government registration list. If this is not a motive for you, buy a 1911. Itll be cheaper, faster, easier, and guaranteed to work. |
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Well, I'll be the contrarian on this one. I built this:  My first ever 1911 build, with a KT 80% frame, and a sarco kit. Now, I must admit, that some of the sarco parts were junk. The trigger was bad. In the pic above, I had replaced some of the sarco stuff, but still using many of them. The benefit to the sarco stuff is that you can experiment with "cheaper" parts, and not worry about ruing $$$ parts until you are more experienced. Another way to experiment is to buy a cheap 1911, and then start customizing it. Below, (sorry for the big pic) is a Rock Island Armory Officers size, that I started playing with. I have changed the trigger, grips, and put on an ambi safety. Soon, I will put a beavertail, and upgraded sear/hammer. Try this site for builders www.homegunsmith.com 
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I ordered a new " John Jardine " http://www.jardinescustom.com/april2003photos/resizedthumbnails/BlueMagWellprops.jpg This was 8 months ago !! Anyone some expierence with deliveries ? Thanks Robert |
What do you base this comment on? Any experience with the course or are you just shooting your mouth off? |
You aren't gonna make any friends here with that attitude. If you did a little more reading on these forums you wouldn't be looking like an ass right now. I dare say that Hobbs is well repected here and his opinion valued. Unlike yours 
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| Well, whose buying the beers then? I vote for Hobbs.helpingfor a beer or two every now and then. |
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I built a 1911 using a Caspian frame, Colt SS slide, and a sarco parts kit. It's true the sarco parts need fitting, but it wasnt anything I couldnt do with files and stones. Total I spent about 12 hrs fitting all the parts together. I intentionally built a slightly "loose" gun as a trade off for unquestionable reliabailty. I have a few hundred rounds thru it with no problems. Since then i've built a super tight upper (slide/bushing/barrel fit) with under .001 tolerances. Total on my shooter I spent $350, including a fully adjustable rear sight and Houge rubberized wrap-around grips. The tools I already had, but would have spent mabye $50 total. My gun is more accurate than a friends $500 Mil-Spec Springfield. In my opinion mine looks better than his too, plus everything is the way I want it. My advise is Buy Kuhnhausens Vol. 1 book on the 1911. Read it then decide if you still want to take it on. I had zero prior experience with 1911's. I had only fired one once, and had never even pulled a slide of one. |
Bill, you got my attention now. I did not realize what you were referring to when I got your last IM. So, let me explain a couple things. First and foremost, the online tutorials at Brownells are very informative and easy to follow, as well as free. That was the main thing. Free. The tutorials there are written by some of the best smiths in the country, and they do this out of the goodness of their heart. I based my opinion on reading the website, which sounds like the rhetoric of a used car selsman. The guns shown there are average custom 1911s at best, and claiming you will build a $3,500 1911 is ridiculous. I quote this from the site: "This is NOT a “Gunsmithing Class” and is merely Online Instruction for a certain kind of person who wants to give birth to one Custom 1911 Pistol." For $500, I would like to think one could learn something other than putting one 1911 together within rigid parameters and basically assembling a kit on a one time basis. I'm not suggesting a person would not learn something, but there is a wealth of knowledge out there on all the fundamentals of 1911 work that is free. Let me be very clear here. I had no first hand knowledge of the course, and when Stryfe posted the link, I went through the website. It came off like a scam artist website. Maybe Mr. Sample just has a flair for dramatic speaking. I don't know him or you, but I was a bit concerned about someone spending $500 on something they could learn about for free. As for me, let me give you a little background. Since coming to ARFCOM, I've found that most people here have a great attitude, and are willing to share their knowledge (as we've seen you do), and are eager to learn things. I take great pleasure in helping people out with 1911 stuff as best as I can. The reason is that I've been fortunate enough to have some mentors that shared their knowledge out of the goodness of their heart. As I've said before, I'm no 1911 expert. I'm a full time (and then some) cop who does 1911 stuff for fun. Back in '88. I was shooting IPSC a lot, and could not afford a lot of pistol smithing work. My regular smith, a guy in Az., named Nelson Ford, was very inconsistent with the quality of work he did for me. When I had to replace a safety in one of my 1911s, I bought an Ed Brown, took three hours to fit it, and was fairly proud of myself. I butchered it from a cosmetic standpoint, but it worked. When I took it to Nelson for some other work, he took it apart in front of me and my best friend, and about 3 customers. The first thing he did was ask who did the safety, saying it looked like an abortion. Then he told me something to the effect of leave the gunsmithing to the professionals. Being a shy teenager, I was pretty embarrassed. In 95 I met Tom Rajec, a guy who owns a full serivce gunsmithing shop. His shop had been burglarized, and I was the first unit there. I did not live far from there, and I started spending 2 to 4 days a week there. I got to work on a lot of guns and learn a lot of things. Tom shared all his knowledge for free. He let me use his shop equipment, and God knows I've broken enough tools over the years. Many smiths feel they should not share their knowledge because they are losing future business. Tom, on the other hand, has shared his knowledge with anyone willing to listen. There will always be people who are not adept at doing their own work, nor will want to. For those who want to learn, why not share the knowledge? Before getting married a few years ago, I spent a lot of free time working on 1911s, Hi-Powers, Glocks, etc. I've worked on several hundred guns over the years. I've seen some of the wierdest malfunctions, breakages, probelms, etc. I've also had the opportunity to see the work of some very talented smiths. So, though I do not do this for a living, I like to share some of the stuff I learned. Nobody was trying to wrong you. I still have no first hand knowledge about the Patriot Course, and I probably should have kept my opinion to myself. If I've offended you, I apologize. I mean that. My motivation was my concern that Stryfe did not get taken. Of course, he's an adult, and it's his business what he does. I wanted him to be informed though. SGB, thanks for the kind words. Bill, Steve, in the rare chance that any of us ever meet, the first round is on me. 
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Well, I should have taken a different approach, I apologize for not doing it, but it struck me wrong. The part of your staement "If you follow the how to's on Brownells site, you can learn more about building a 1911 than you would on the Patriot course. "had no basis as you didn't have any idea of what the class taught. First, a little history. The class was originally taught at Yavapi College a a short term NRA course. It has been adapted for online instruction and we have entered discussions with Bill Poole with the NRA for an acknowledgement from them. We have submitted the course to them but these things take time. American Handgunner's staff have also reviewde the material and results and has published an article in the current AH about the class tht reviews a pair of guns done, one being carried as a duty weapon on active duty. The class, while new, has a solid history and is in it's fourth year. We have also started a new venture you can read about at GSP Online course. The first class for this starts this summer and has been booked since January. In the twelve steps, the course covers all aspects of fitting each and every part of the 1911, including the frame and the slide, barrel, all small parts, including cutting the tangs for the grip safety. It also includes all of the small details custom makers pay attention to that are not properly addressed in any current books or videos I have reviewed. The class also includes 24/7 tech support over the phone, as well as the course of instruction that is online for the students to access at their leisure. The students don't have a time limit either, due to conditions beyond some of their control, we have had students start in one class and finish in another. This is at no extra charge what-so-ever, period. The students can take their experience and build as many pistols as their budgets allow after the course, but we qdvertise that we are teaching them building the one gun because we are interested in teaching the hobbyist from the home, we are not looking for aspiring pistolsmiths and regularly turn them down. For every student we take, we normally turn down five. Booking these classes has never been a problem and registration is usually done in a week or so from announcement, that'w why we don't push the class and most people haven't heard of it. We do keep good company though as each of the suppliers supplement the class in one form or another and are totally aware of the course and what we are doing and suppot it. If you take inot consideration the cost of the parts for a build, all of the shipping involved, and the legwork to make it happen, you cannot buy the parts for it at a dealer discount,much less retail. We also supply some of the tools needed and teach the students how to make others saving them a couple of hundred dollars in costs alone, unlike the Brownell's web tips that are pimping their products, as well as they should, they are of course in business. Brownells' doesn't cover most of this, and doen't offer the support we do. So, let's review the 600 tuition. This includes the 'classroom'. Websites, especially those that eat up the bandwidth that we use along with the hundreds of pictures we use aren't exactly free. The legwork in cordinating the parts takes a great deal of time that the student doesn't have to worry about. 24/7 tech support with additional pictures to address each individula students needs are covered. Additional lessons, called between the lines lessons, cover other aaspects of custom work that the students have a reference to for future builds. Lifetime access to the 'classroom' is included, amd we try to help them with their future projects when we can. They ahve even resulted in additional 'between the lines lessons' when we do these also. Now, as to the value, I guess that is in the eye of the beholder. These fellows end up with about 80 hours in these pistols each, their time is worth much more than that. Howsa' 'bout someone going through the Brownell's web help, see how much the aprts would cost and all of the instructuional material's would cost and see what you come up with. Also, compare it to some of the commercially available classes. These are designed for pistolsmiths that want ot go into business, but cost several thousand dollars, cause you to be away from your job for a couple of three weeks, put yourself up in a moel, and then send you home knowing how to build a 1911. Remember folks, this is intended for the hobbiest smith. The fellow who wants to do this, but dpesn't have the time to take out of his life for a several thousand dollar course away from home, but still wants a top quality end result. Distance education opens this opportunity for people, and we offer one hell of a product and have one hell of a track record. Hobbs, how close are you to Prescott? The current class should have some finished pistols there within a month or so. I might be able to arrange a field trip for you to see some of the students work in the white and after a trip to Gunsite for the final bluing. Now, how's that for putting my money where my mouth is so to speak? Of course, we have had student pistols on display at shot representing Caspian for the last three years, so if you made Shot and went to see Gary, you probably have already seen a few of them. Bill |
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Bill, you did not take the wrong approach. I would have been mad too. I can admit I judged a book by the cover, so I apologize to you. I'm tellin you though, by the website appearance and language, it comes across like an cheesy infomercial, and I've heard the same from several others. I've learned more from your posts about the course than I learned reading the entore website. Now, I have no doubt that the guns turn out nice. Also, I agree that Brownells pimps their products many times. However, they are the best one stop shop in town. I have a lot of loyalty to them from all the good service, and I'm not affiliated with them in any way. I did not make SHOT, by the way. I'm an hour from Prescott, but I have no reason to doubt the quality of the guns. Maybe YOU should write the course description though. I have no problem with Mr. Single personally, but like I said, the website sounds like an infomercial. Hell, if Mr. Single ever makes it down to Phoenix, I'll buy him some beers and we can discuss his program. I'm sure there are a lot of interested people that would like to sign up for something like this. However, as far as value being in the eye of the beholder, I initially balked at the price tag. If you have $600 disposable bucks for something like this, I would say do it. Heck, it's no different than spending that kind of money on a professional shooting school. I just don't want people to overlook some of the great free online courses and forums out there. There are many helpful people willing to share their knowledge. One thing is for sure. I have yet to see someone say anything negative about the program. If it sucks, I'm sure we'll hear about it. If it's good, likewise. |
Well, Dave quit drinking 39 years ago and the last time he went to Pheonix the VA ripped his heart out of his chest and replumbed it and stuffed it back in, so I don't know if he's going to make that trip again. Now, I do plan on flyng out early next year ,unless I can arrange a trip this fall, so I'll take you up on the beer whiloe I'm waiting on the shuttle to Prescott, I'll even show you some of the course. Hell, if I get off the plane sober, I'll even buy the beer. ( birng money, I'm a charming fellow and seem to get comp tickets for free drinks, and flying does require a few drinks for me )
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Did you say whiskey and I don't have to drive in the same sentance? Hmmmm, sounds like a field trip. Let's make at least an airport meet a plan, but if you are also into the cowboy stuff, then you definately need to meet Dave too. I am still thinking Spring, but am hoping for Fall. |
Whiskey Row is the downtown area of Prescott, where there are numerous saloons. Yes, there is good whiskey, and no, you don't have to drive. It's a nice road trip for me, and I like it up in the pines. We can share ideas on 1911s, knock back a few whiskies (and toast SGB, since he won't be there), and admire the local women (lot;s of talent up there, surprisingly). |
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OK I had only seen pictures of 1911's before I decided to do a KT build, I had never touched one. It was not bad at all, and came out VERY nice. The slide has no play at all , but is smooth as butter, and the trigger is light and crisp I got some very nice compliments on it from a local guy with a 1911 race gun he uses in a lot of matches. Here are some links to pages that I could not have done without. Lots of good building info.. Read on grahamcracka.dns2go.com/1911frame2/[/URL grahamcracka.dns2go.com/1911frame/1911frame.htm www.blindhogg.com/gunsmithing.html www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/progressDetail2.htm www.roderuscustom.tzo.com/progressDetail1.htm And of course the home gunsmith forums www.homegunsmith.com   www.homegunsmith.com]www.homegunsmith.com
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I made an earlier post, but my hosting site was down. Here's a pic of my $350 1911 completely fit/assembled by me with zero prior knowledge of 1911's. With nothing but internet knowledge and Kuhnhausens books.. http://www.dohertyracing.com/gun/.45.JPG |