Posted: 10/6/2011 7:28:20 AM EDT
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted.
First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. thanks all. |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. |
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Quoted: I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? I have 12 sigs and have never noticed a difference in wear And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. most likely I would, but I would figure out what was causing it and fix it thanks all. |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat 
Reputable links? |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat
Reputable links? Do I have to give you a link explaining how steel is stronger than alluminum? Its common knowledge but here is a thread on another forum discussing it. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-419581.html |
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AR15 uppers don't get stressed at all the barrel extension takes all the pounding and that is made of steel. On Sig alloy frames the frame gets pounded by a steel slide. Its not just sigs all alloy framed pistols have much shorter service lives vs steel and polimer framed guns. 15 to 20K is good for a Sig Alloy framed gun. Also many guns will last with little to no maintance. Take a Glock 17 for example Chuck Taylor shot 140K through his and only had to replace the magazine springs. The HK45 went through over 140K in testing without cleaning as welll and no malfunctions. You can't do that with an alloy framed gun.
Pat |
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Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat You're wrong. If SIGs alloy frames only lasted 20k rounds, then they would be out of business. My work SIG (P226R 9mm) has around 30k rounds through it, and the frame isn't cracked. I'm sure that NSW and the British SAS/SBS don't replace their SIGs every 20k rounds. Hell, Frogman over at TF and Todd Green (former SIG employee) stated that they have seen a lot of alloy SIGs with 100k + rounds through them. Here's what Todd Green has to say about the steel framed SIGs.... No, but in my experience the takedown levers fail earlier on the steel framed guns. I think they get battered harder because there is no ability for the frame to flex. When I started shooting SIGs I gravitated toward the steel frame because I thought it would (a) be more durable and (b) be easier to shoot fast. Neither proved true. |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K.
Pat |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat
Reputable links? Do I have to give you a link explaining how steel is stronger than alluminum? Its common knowledge but here is a thread on another forum discussing it. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-419581.html You know, the way I read that page, it seems that it does not support your position. The "they crack and die at 20k" seems to have been a problem with rolled slides and/or a specific model in the 80's that was fixed. All of the actual experience in that thread supports them lasting much longer. Look at the link in the thread you mentioned where the former Sig employee/shooter talks about his experience. 24 guns, up to 36,000 rounds per gun. Sometimes going 4000-5000 rounds between cleaning. He managed to break two takedown levers and two extractors, but no other breakages, and not a single frame crack. |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K. Pat Sorry, but you're not right and are full of shit. You're right that most gun owners don't shoot that much, but many do, and the world top tier SOF shoot way more than that. A lot of them (GROM, NSW, SAS/SBS, JTF-2, NZ SAS etc) issue the P226, and I can guarantee you that they get a hell of a lot more than 20k rounds out of a frame. If you know who Todd Green is, you will know that he's not talking out of his ass. Go register over at pistol training forums and post that SIG frames only last 20k rounds, see what kind of answers you get. |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K. Pat Sorry, but you're not right and are full of shit. You're right that most gun owners don't shoot that much, but many do, and the world top tier SOF shoot way more than that. A lot of them (GROM, NSW, SAS/SBS, JTF-2, NZ SAS etc) issue the P226, and I can guarantee you that they get a hell of a lot more than 20k rounds out of a frame. If you know who Todd Green is, you will know that he's not talking out of his ass. Go register over at pistol training forums and post that SIG frames only last 20k rounds, see what kind of answers you get. Actually most SOF guys are not using Sigs. Their using Glock 19's custom 1911's and one top unit is using Glock 22's. Hk is also popular. The SEALS are about the only ones using Sigs. As for being full of shit it that would be you. How in the hell do you know how many rounds the SEALS are getting from their frames. Your talking out your ass. Do a search and you will see many talk about frame failures from 15k to 20K with their Sigs. Todd Green is a great trainer who is also biased from having worked at Sig. He has a product to plug. Pat |
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aluminum fails that is why we build planes out of steel. along with car and boat motors. Oh wait Alluminum is great for a lot of things but its not great for absorbing impact. You're making an apples to oranges comparision. If Alluminum was great then lets make the barrel and slide out of it too genius. Pat |
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Quoted: they need the mass for the slide Quoted: aluminum fails that is why we build planes out of steel. along with car and boat motors. Oh wait Alluminum is great for a lot of things but its not great for absorbing impact. You're making an apples to oranges comparision. If Alluminum was great then lets make the barrel and slide out of it too genius. Pat |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K. Pat Still waiting for you to provide the links to reputable sources that will support your assertions, until which time I will continue to believe that you are making things up as you go. IMO; 60K or more, is a walk in the park for a SIG frame, EXCEPT for the 226 scalloped rail frames that were discontinued years ago because they presented a point of failure. |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat
Reputable links? Do I have to give you a link explaining how steel is stronger than alluminum? Its common knowledge but here is a thread on another forum discussing it. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-419581.html The part in blue identifies your assertions as baseless. |
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they need the mass for the slide
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aluminum fails that is why we build planes out of steel. along with car and boat motors. Oh wait Alluminum is great for a lot of things but its not great for absorbing impact. You're making an apples to oranges comparision. If Alluminum was great then lets make the barrel and slide out of it too genius. Pat That is only part of it. Alluminum deforms more easily and will beat to a pulp if it was used in the slide. You don't know much at all about metallurgy based on your posts. Alluminum is great for somethings and not good for others. Pat |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K. Pat Still waiting for you to provide the links to reputable sources that will support your assertions, until which time I will continue to believe that you are making things up as you go. IMO; 60K or more, is a walk in the park for a SIG frame, EXCEPT for the 226 scalloped rail frames that were discontinued years ago because they presented a point of failure. I provided a link and you provided your opinion! LOL You should go into politics. Pat |
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I did a search on a couple of things and really could not find what I wanted. First are the ss frames on sig p series pistols really much better or better than the Hard Anodized frames that most of their guns are made out of? Better in what way? They'll certainly be heavier. In terms of longevity... maybe they'd go a bit longer. Although the hard anodized frames last an awwwwfully long time. Quoted:
And second Would you carry a sig that was very accurate and 100% reliable except for the fact the thing will not lock back on empty mags. And thats sporadically. Probably, but then again, I'm not the hardcore "I have to have three guns, ten magazines, pepper spray, cuffs, and five knives, prepare for WW3" type of CCW-er. But I wouldn't just say "Sure, I'll leave it this way forever", I'd look at/replace the slide catch - or look at new/stronger magazine springs - and see if the problem could be fixed. Actually you can count on Stainless steel frames to last well over 50k but the allow frames your lucky if you get 20K before you start getting cracked frames. Not saying the allow frames suck they are fine for a carry gun that is shot in frequently but they are not up to the task of putting a lot of rounds down range like say a competition shooter would. Pat
Reputable links? Do I have to give you a link explaining how steel is stronger than alluminum? Its common knowledge but here is a thread on another forum discussing it. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-419581.html The part in blue identifies your assertions as baseless. Actually your lack of an ability to understand it shows your ignorance. Pat |
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Pat,
My dept has 30 Aluminum framed Sigs. I'm the armorer for all of them, and also a firearms instructor. I dont shoot as much as some of the guys on the firearms staff....but I've got close to 10k rounds through my 40 229 made in April of 07. I know one of the guys who shoots regularly and frequently has almost 20K through his 226. The only Sig I've ever seen with cracks was my old scallop framed 226 in 9mm that was made in 1986. It had less than 5k rounds through it. St Louis County PD has over 900 Sig 229's in 40 cal. The only problems I've heard of from their armorers and firearms instructors are the following: 1...several, (around 20-30 out of 900+) night sights machined a few thousandths of a inch too small by meprolight that fell out while shooting the guns. Replaced by Sig no cost. 2...teething issues with magazine disconnect they mandated be present on the guns before they bought them. Sig (somehow), made it happen. The armorers dont feel that those issues should really be thrown at Sig's door since St Louis County required that be added to a design that did not originally have it. There are competive shooters at St Louis County and I'd bet money some of them have 20K rounds + through their guns. |
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Pat, My dept has 30 Aluminum framed Sigs. I'm the armorer for all of them, and also a firearms instructor. I dont shoot as much as some of the guys on the firearms staff....but I've got close to 10k rounds through my 40 229 made in April of 07. I know one of the guys who shoots regularly and frequently has almost 20K through his 226. The only Sig I've ever seen with cracks was my old scallop framed 226 in 9mm that was made in 1986. It had less than 5k rounds through it. St Louis County PD has over 900 Sig 229's in 40 cal. The only problems I've heard of from their armorers and firearms instructors are the following: 1...several, (around 20-30 out of 900+) night sights machined a few thousandths of a inch too small by meprolight that fell out while shooting the guns. Replaced by Sig no cost. 2...teething issues with magazine disconnect they mandated be present on the guns before they bought them. Sig (somehow), made it happen. The armorers dont feel that those issues should really be thrown at Sig's door since St Louis County required that be added to a design that did not originally have it. There are competive shooters at St Louis County and I'd bet money some of them have 20K rounds + through their guns. I am not bashing the guns (I own a west german 226 and have owned over 12 sigs in the past) what I am saying is you can not expect a long service life with an alloy framed gun. 15 to 20K is what is considered the norm in my experience. Seen some Sigs have issues in 5k not often and I know some have lasted longer. In other guns I have seen alloy frames cracked. An alloy 1911 I had had the dust cover break off. Alluminum is good for a lot of things but it does have its limitations. Pat |
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SIG SAUER's current parts replacement schedule (numbers of rounds). Barrel: If the pistol exhibits keyholing or unacceptable accuracy. Decocking lever spring: 10,000 Extractor: 20,000 Extractor spring: 20,000 Firing pin: 20,000 Firing pin spring: 20,000 Magazine spring: When magazine fails to lock the slide open. Recoil spring: 5,000 Roll pins for breechblock retention (pins, HD): 5000 Safety lock spring: 20,000 Slide catch lever spring: 10,000 Takedown lever: 20,000 Trigger bar spring: 10,000 SIG SAUER makes no formal recommendation about the mainspring, however, customer service has reported that guns with 40,000 rounds are still igniting their ammunition with the original spring. If ignition problems do develop and can't be determined to be due to other reasons, the obvious course would be to try a new mainspring. |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K. Pat Sorry, but you're not right and are full of shit. You're right that most gun owners don't shoot that much, but many do, and the world top tier SOF shoot way more than that. A lot of them (GROM, NSW, SAS/SBS, JTF-2, NZ SAS etc) issue the P226, and I can guarantee you that they get a hell of a lot more than 20k rounds out of a frame. If you know who Todd Green is, you will know that he's not talking out of his ass. Go register over at pistol training forums and post that SIG frames only last 20k rounds, see what kind of answers you get. Actually most SOF guys are not using Sigs. Their using Glock 19's custom 1911's and one top unit is using Glock 22's. Hk is also popular. The SEALS are about the only ones using Sigs. As for being full of shit it that would be you. How in the hell do you know how many rounds the SEALS are getting from their frames. Your talking out your ass. Do a search and you will see many talk about frame failures from 15k to 20K with their Sigs. Todd Green is a great trainer who is also biased from having worked at Sig. He has a product to plug. Pat You're right, out of the US SOF, only NSW is issuing SIGs and HK's, but the other Tier 1 Units that I listed above from other countries are issuing 226's. I know who uses what, but thanks for trying to fill me in. FWIW... only a very very few select Marines are using 1911's still. I know that SEALs shoot their SIGs a shit ton because I have talked to them about it, but I guess I'm just talking out of my ass. Todd Green is not biased because he has worked for SIG. In fact, I do not think he left on good terms. If he's "plugging" anything these days, it's H&K's. The only SIGs that I have heard/seen that have had broken frame rails are the old scalloped models from the mid 80's, or the lack of maintenance on the old stamped slide models. On the older models, if you don't replace the roll pins every 5k rounds or so, they can break, which could result in the frame rails cracking. Since I can't "prove" to you of my conversations with guys at NSW, here's the next best thing. Quotes from Frogman over at TF regarding the P226. He was around when NSW adopted them in 1989 and continued to use them throughout his career (including the current wars) until he retired a few years ago. He has shot hundreds of thousands of rounds out of SIGs, so I would call him an "expert" regarding the platform. "I have not noticed, nor has anyone else I know noticed a decrease in reliability since 2005. In fact, we have also been using P239's as well as some P228's. They are all reliable. I recently me with some of our foreign SOF allies and their SIGs are running tip top, as well." "The point is kind of moot, though. Many people have asked on this forum why the Teams use the SIG over this gun or that gun. There is one simple reason, and hopefully the answer will put this question to rest for a while. Here it is. THE SIG IS RELIABLE, ACCURATE AND PLAIN WORKS. IT IS PROVEN AND TRUSTED AND DOES NOT NEED TO BE REPLACED. I think many of you are under the impression that SEALs consider replacing their SIGs every time a new handgun is made. Not true. No one really cares about finding a "new" gun in the Teams. The SIG is filling its role in the Team exceedingly well, so there's no need to try to replace it. SEALs are not apt to replace a proven piece of equipment with every single "commercial improvement" or re-design of a particular item. If the SIG isn't your favorite gun, oh well. It is the favorite handgun of the Teams. Occasionally I get the impression there are those out there trying desperately to make their favorite pistol OUR favorite. From this end, no one's biting. The SIGs stay. We like them. They work." "The SIG P226 and the MP-5N are the two most durable and longest service life weapons in SEAL Team armories. By comparison, the M4s last about 18 months before replacement. SEALs shoot thousands and thousands of rounds through all their assigned weapons every year." "Sure thing, as an aside no firearm has a longer Team life than the SIGs. Everything else is very temporary. SIGs just don't burn out like the other weapons systems. Also, after thousands of dry fires those triggers become very slick." "The heavier stainless slide has a few features which are somewhat better than the older model. The extractor is better, in my opinion, as it does not require the inner and outer roll pins in the breechblock to be replaced every 5,000 rounds. There simply are no pins to change. SEALs burn through A LOT of 9mm. The SIGs can handle it, but it made changing the roll pins a common occurance. The stainless slide works a little better with Simunitions kits. The beefier stainless slide makes shooting 9mm 147 gr. bullets feel like you're shooting a Ruger Mk II. Regular 115 gr. 9mm is toned down, also. There is better corrosion resistance with the newer slide. Of side interest- I much prefer the older plastic grips to the new pebble textured ones." That's just a few of them, enjoy the read. |
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structural steel has 65,000 psi tension or compression, 75% that for shear, 33,000 psi yield point, 29,000,000 psi modulus of elasticity, 41% of that for shear. aluminum 6061-T6 has "tensile strength of at least 42,000 psi (290 MPa) and yield strength of at least 35,000 psi (241 MPa). In thicknesses of 0.250 inch (6.35 mm) or less, it has elongation of 8% or more; in thicker sections, it has elongation of 10%." Steel is a lot stronger, but heavier. Titanium, "Strength to Weight Ratio Based on Yield Strength divided by Density 74% higher than 6061 - T6 Aluminum 102% higher than 4130 Cr-Mo steel Elastic Modulus 15,000,000 psi (10.3 x 10^4 Mpa) 50% higher than aluminum alloys and 50% lower than steel alloys". Source(s): |
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I guess it is the reason diesel engines have steel pistons to stand up to the abuse, oh wait they are aluminum. well I'll be You are full of apples to oranges comparisions. The fact is alluminum framed pistols have shorter service lives compared to steel framed guns. Alluminum is great when weight must be light but it can not handle what steel can. You don't seem understand how different metals have different capabilities. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-303447.html http://www.calccw.com/Forums/carry-guns-ammo/550-steel-frame-vs-aluminum.html http://concealedcarryforum.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16899 http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?75133-1911-frames-Steel-vs.-Aluminum |
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Sorry but I am right. If yours has past 20K consider yourself lucky because that is not the norm. Also no Sig would not be out of buisness. Most gun owners don't shoot their guns enough to reach 20k in their lifetime not even LEO's. The quote you provided is from a former Sig employee. Not exactly un biased or reliable information. Also seeing a few guns make it to 100k is great I have also seem some crack with just 5K. Its an average thing and its about 20K. Pat Sorry, but you're not right and are full of shit. You're right that most gun owners don't shoot that much, but many do, and the world top tier SOF shoot way more than that. A lot of them (GROM, NSW, SAS/SBS, JTF-2, NZ SAS etc) issue the P226, and I can guarantee you that they get a hell of a lot more than 20k rounds out of a frame. If you know who Todd Green is, you will know that he's not talking out of his ass. Go register over at pistol training forums and post that SIG frames only last 20k rounds, see what kind of answers you get. Actually most SOF guys are not using Sigs. Their using Glock 19's custom 1911's and one top unit is using Glock 22's. Hk is also popular. The SEALS are about the only ones using Sigs. As for being full of shit it that would be you. How in the hell do you know how many rounds the SEALS are getting from their frames. Your talking out your ass. Do a search and you will see many talk about frame failures from 15k to 20K with their Sigs. Todd Green is a great trainer who is also biased from having worked at Sig. He has a product to plug. Pat You're right, out of the US SOF, only NSW is issuing SIGs and HK's, but the other Tier 1 Units that I listed above from other countries are issuing 226's. I know who uses what, but thanks for trying to fill me in. FWIW... only a very very few select Marines are using 1911's still. I know that SEALs shoot their SIGs a shit ton because I have talked to them about it, but I guess I'm just talking out of my ass. Todd Green is not biased because he has worked for SIG. In fact, I do not think he left on good terms. If he's "plugging" anything these days, it's H&K's. The only SIGs that I have heard/seen that have had broken frame rails are the old scalloped models from the mid 80's, or the lack of maintenance on the old stamped slide models. On the older models, if you don't replace the roll pins every 5k rounds or so, they can break, which could result in the frame rails cracking. Since I can't "prove" to you of my conversations with guys at NSW, here's the next best thing. Quotes from Frogman over at TF regarding the P226. He was around when NSW adopted them in 1989 and continued to use them throughout his career (including the current wars) until he retired a few years ago. He has shot hundreds of thousands of rounds out of SIGs, so I would call him an "expert" regarding the platform. "I have not noticed, nor has anyone else I know noticed a decrease in reliability since 2005. In fact, we have also been using P239's as well as some P228's. They are all reliable. I recently me with some of our foreign SOF allies and their SIGs are running tip top, as well." "The point is kind of moot, though. Many people have asked on this forum why the Teams use the SIG over this gun or that gun. There is one simple reason, and hopefully the answer will put this question to rest for a while. Here it is. THE SIG IS RELIABLE, ACCURATE AND PLAIN WORKS. IT IS PROVEN AND TRUSTED AND DOES NOT NEED TO BE REPLACED. I think many of you are under the impression that SEALs consider replacing their SIGs every time a new handgun is made. Not true. No one really cares about finding a "new" gun in the Teams. The SIG is filling its role in the Team exceedingly well, so there's no need to try to replace it. SEALs are not apt to replace a proven piece of equipment with every single "commercial improvement" or re-design of a particular item. If the SIG isn't your favorite gun, oh well. It is the favorite handgun of the Teams. Occasionally I get the impression there are those out there trying desperately to make their favorite pistol OUR favorite. From this end, no one's biting. The SIGs stay. We like them. They work." "The SIG P226 and the MP-5N are the two most durable and longest service life weapons in SEAL Team armories. By comparison, the M4s last about 18 months before replacement. SEALs shoot thousands and thousands of rounds through all their assigned weapons every year." "Sure thing, as an aside no firearm has a longer Team life than the SIGs. Everything else is very temporary. SIGs just don't burn out like the other weapons systems. Also, after thousands of dry fires those triggers become very slick." "The heavier stainless slide has a few features which are somewhat better than the older model. The extractor is better, in my opinion, as it does not require the inner and outer roll pins in the breechblock to be replaced every 5,000 rounds. There simply are no pins to change. SEALs burn through A LOT of 9mm. The SIGs can handle it, but it made changing the roll pins a common occurance. The stainless slide works a little better with Simunitions kits. The beefier stainless slide makes shooting 9mm 147 gr. bullets feel like you're shooting a Ruger Mk II. Regular 115 gr. 9mm is toned down, also. There is better corrosion resistance with the newer slide. Of side interest- I much prefer the older plastic grips to the new pebble textured ones." That's just a few of them, enjoy the read. Most of what you posted is praise for sig pistols. Nothing new. Nothing talked about a specific life span other than a vague refrence saying sigs lasted longer than some ofther un named weapons they had used. Sorry but fail. Pat |
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Nothing vague about this statement:
""Sure thing, as an aside no firearm has a longer Team life than the SIGs. Everything else is very temporary. SIGs just don't burn out like the other weapons systems." Side note....dont you go by AlaskaPoPo on another forum? ETA-not looking to Arock or anything....just curious. Thought I'd read some of your posts over on Glock Talk with that user name. |
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Nothing vague about this statement: ""Sure thing, as an aside no firearm has a longer Team life than the SIGs. Everything else is very temporary. SIGs just don't burn out like the other weapons systems." Side note....dont you go by AlaskaPoPo on another forum? ETA-not looking to Arock or anything....just curious. Thought I'd read some of your posts over on Glock Talk with that user name. Yes he does. He has another handle over at M4C too. |
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I am not bashing the guns (I own a west german 226 and have owned over 12 sigs in the past) what I am saying is you can not expect a long service life with an alloy framed gun. 15 to 20K is what is considered the norm in my experience. How many guns do you own through which you have shot more than 15-20k rounds? |
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I am not bashing the guns (I own a west german 226 and have owned over 12 sigs in the past) what I am saying is you can not expect a long service life with an alloy framed gun. 15 to 20K is what is considered the norm in my experience. How many guns do you own through which you have shot more than 15-20k rounds? My STI EDGE in 40sw, My Caspian Open gun although most of the rounds were put on before I got it. I bought it used and it is right around 20K right now if the previous owner was telling me the truth and I have no reason to dis believe him. My Wilson CQB I sold last summer had just over 17k through it that I put on it. I shoot competatively so I do tend to shoot my guns more than the average guy. I have not even talked about the rifles yet. However my experience is not limited just to what I have shot. It also encompass what I have seen in the classes I have attended and shot as well as talking to friends that own these pistols. I have been a firearms instructor for the last 10 years. Pat 
Probably put about 10K on the Kimber but not sure. |
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I guess it is the reason diesel engines have steel pistons to stand up to the abuse, oh wait they are aluminum. well I'll be You are full of apples to oranges comparisions. The fact is alluminum framed pistols have shorter service lives compared to steel framed guns. Alluminum is great when weight must be light but it can not handle what steel can. You don't seem understand how different metals have different capabilities. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-303447.html http://www.calccw.com/Forums/carry-guns-ammo/550-steel-frame-vs-aluminum.html http://concealedcarryforum.com/forumtopic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16899 http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?75133-1911-frames-Steel-vs.-Aluminum just curious PAT does all this "reliable info" come from forum boards? because i have a sig p226r platinum elite and this year alone i have right at 17,800 rounds through it and i have about 14,000 through it last year and guess what no cracks? yep thats right steel frames can handle some beatings better than aluminum but as far as shooting ? aluminum is better if you want anyone to think otherwise please post a link that is not to someones opinions on a forum but to fact because so far all you have done is cause an agrument making yourself discreditable i have shot many many rounds through aluminum frame sigs and steel framed sigs and like everyone said the only ones i know of having problems were from way back and they fixed that now on a 1911 with a aluminum frame this may be true because the frame and slide fit so tightly together the rubbing on the frame may cause the aluminum to break sooner because of steel on aluminum but if you keep it greesed should dramatically cut back on the wear and tear but as far as sigs the aluminum frame is jut as good if not better than the steel frames and that is from experience with alloy framed sigs not 1911's they are totally different designs and when you where asked which guns you have ho 15-20k rounds through i noticed none of the which are sigs |
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Guys we are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here. I like Sigs and think they are one of the best of the DA autos out there. I also don't have a problem with alluminum guns when used in the context they were designed for. Carry guns, duty guns etc. I do know that steel and polimer framed guns last longer. But that being said getting 20k out of a service pistol is going to be enough for 99% of LEO's and CCW holders out there.
Later. Pat |
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Guys we are going to have to agree to disagree on some issues here. I like Sigs and think they are one of the best of the DA autos out there. I also don't have a problem with alluminum guns when used in the context they were designed for. Carry guns, duty guns etc. I do know that steel and polimer framed guns last longer. But that being said getting 20k out of a service pistol is going to be enough for 99% of LEO's and CCW holders out there. Later. Pat and what we are asking and trying to find out is exactly how do you "Know" this because someone else on another forum said so? if not then please provide fact not opinion because i only own one sig that doesnt have 15-20k plus rounds through it and thats becaue i got it today give me a year it will have well over 20k on it |
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GlockFan, I don't make bold statements like this very often but you're wrong about the Sig aluminum frames. The highest round count I've seen on an aluminum-framed Sig was a little over 400,000 rounds. That was a P226 that belonged to one of the guys that worked security at a nuclear power plant. Those guys shoot a LOT. The Sigs can take it as long as they get regular maintenance like recoil springs.
I know departments that carry steel-framed Sigs but I don't know anyone who has a lot of rounds through any of them. On the other end of the spectrum, the Evansville, IN P.D. had to replace all of their polymer-framed Glock 21s at less than ten years since eight of the original 288 guns had rear frame rails that broke off. The cause was a lack of maintenance by not replacing recoil springs. We shoot a lot but no more than we did with Sigs. When we carried Sigs and shot the same amount, we had one cracked rail on a Sig but the gun still shot well, even with the cracked rail. That gun belonged to an IPSC shooter who was loading his 9mm rounds to make Major at IPSC shoots. Are you really saying that non-maintained polymer (plastic) is stronger than non-maintained aluminum? If you are, then I'll say you're wrong again. I have carried Glocks and Sigs and both are great guns. If Glock offered factory aluminum frames, I'd choose the aluminum frame over the polymer every time. |
| I have a Glock 23 that had a helluva lot less than 20,000 rounds that broke on the inside of the frame where the recoil spring guide fits against the frame. The round count on that gun was probably less than 2,000. I love Glocks but I don't believe that a polymer frame is any tougher than an aluminum one. |
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I have a Glock 23 that had a helluva lot less than 20,000 rounds that broke on the inside of the frame where the recoil spring guide fits against the frame. The round count on that gun was probably less than 2,000. I love Glocks but I don't believe that a polymer frame is any tougher than an aluminum one. Stronger, no. It flexes...and lasts longer, in most cases. I'd be interested to see the life expectancy of alluminum framed Sigs in 40 and 357 vs their 9mm siblings. |