[ARCHIVED THREAD] - New Pics and Mods (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/28/2009 12:09:41 PM EDT
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So Ive made some new mods to the Glock and decided to snap some glamour shots. So far the mod list includes:
Trijicon front and rear sights Clip Draw Tungsten Guide Rod 3.5lb connector Titanium Striker Upgraded Trigger Kit (Custom trigger with fully polished trigger bar, Set Pre-travel stop, Adjustable over-travel stop, Custom Trigger Spring, Custom Polished safety plunger, Plunger spring) It shoots very smoothly and is just as accurate. I sanded the trigger safety down which has made the pull MUCH more comfortable and since all the pressure isnt concentrated on that thin bar, it actually feels even lighter. http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/boomchic00/Picture-1.jpg Im not sure what is next as far as mods go. I may be done with this one. Gotta start saving up for the STI Tactical 5.0 Pics: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3571/3821970063_2b1aab5f38_b.jpg http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3526/3821971445_c9490b5921_b.jpg |
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Thanks guys!
I actually love the clip draw. I dont carry hot so I dont have to worry about any misfires. Also, there is PLENTY of tension on the clip. So much so that the firearm doesnt move whatsoever. The only downside is the fact that it is a little difficult to "holster". Other than that I haven't had any issues at all. Edge, there was a noticeable difference between the stock guide rod and the tungsten. Before I got the tungsten, I was just running the factory plastic rod. There is a very noticeable difference in weight between the two. The price, I would say it is defintely worth it. As for the hogue grip...I actually just tossed it and picked up some rubber decal grips. If I dont like them, they are only $10 bucks so no biggie. V8, that is the dumbest reply I have read on here to date. The gun shoot phenominally. I guess all those IPSC and IDPA guys with their race guns are idiots too. I see you're in VA too. Come out and shoot some three gun with us sometime and you can see the difference for yourself. Oh, and I lied, im not done with the Glock just yet. Next up on order is a Bar-Sto ported barrel. Maybe I'll get some rims for it too V8 |
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Clipdraw is absolute fucking garbage. Why? Have you ever even used one? I dont understand why everyone has their panties in a bunch over the clip draw. It keeps the gun on my hip, it doesnt move, its 100x more comfortable than any holster I have ever owned, its easy to draw, its always with the gun. I have absolutely zero complaints or issues with it. I think a lot of people just buy into the negative hype. They have heard it sucks, never even seen one, but then tell everyone else it sucks just because thats what others think. As far as I am concerned it does exactly what a traditional holster is supposed to do. Would I use it in a match? Absolutely not. For everyday carry though, it does just fine. |
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It does NOT do exactly what a traditional holster does.
The fact that someone would use such a gimmick to carry their pistol, and the fact that they would carry it unchambered, indicates their total lack of professional training. Correct, professional training would rapidly demonstrate the uselessness of the clipdraw. Clipdraw isn't something one needs to use and try out for a while to see if it's any good. It goes contrary to everything that's commonly known about the proper employment of defensive sidearms. Hey, you do what you want, free world and all. I'm just sayin' they're crap. 
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Quoted:
It does NOT do exactly what a traditional holster does. The fact that someone would use such a gimmick to carry their pistol, and the fact that they would carry it unchambered, indicates their total lack of professional training. Correct, professional training would rapidly demonstrate the uselessness of the clipdraw. Clipdraw isn't something one needs to use and try out for a while to see if it's any good. It goes contrary to everything that's commonly known about the proper employment of defensive sidearms. Hey, you do what you want, free world and all. I'm just sayin' they're crap. Well, since you seem to hint at the fact that you possess such professional training, would you care to explain? A. How does carrying unchambered indicate a lack of professional training? B. How does such training rapidly demonstrate the uselessness of the clipdraw? I train with my weapon on a very frequent basis and can draw, rack the slide and have sights on target very quickly in a fluid motion. If I dont have time to do that in a defensive situation then that means someone already has the drop on me and the game is over anyways. It only takes a fraction of a second to chamber a round. Im not sure how things are in your State, but here in VA, you better be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that you had no other means of avoiding the situation or otherwise removing yourself from it before you even think about pulling your weapon. If your argument is to carry +1, you will have a long day in court if you shoot someone 11 - 16 times. My buddy who was shot 9 times as he sat behind the wheel of his car in his own driveway 5 years ago, well he could have had a full auto sitting in his lap ready to rock and it wouldnt have done him any good. The guy who had a gun in front of my building last summer...well, if I had come across him before the police showed up and killed him all I would have had to do was walk the other way. If three thugs approach me and demand my wallet, well unless they are brandishing weapons I better not even think about pulling mine. The four guys that invaded my house in Pittsburgh while in college with ski masks and guns, tied my roommates up and robbed us, well had I been home I most likely would have been well within my rights to relieve them of their lives (would have certainly had time to chamber a round). What I am trying to say is that a gun is like insurance. Its better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, but there will very rarely ever be a time when any of us will justifiably have to use it. That is unless of course we are in a profession where we are sworn to put ourselves in harms way for the good of the general public. |
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Lose the hogue grip and get a Talon grip. Best thing I have done to my glock 19 hands down. Also only $10.
Edit: Link |
| Do you like the way that the gun is set up , if so then have at it . It's your gun , you spent your hard earn cash for it , set it up like you want it and be happy . What i like or works for me , might not be what you like or what works the best for you . we are all different . |
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Do you like the way that the gun is set up , if so then have at it . It's your gun , you spent your hard earn cash for it , set it up like you want it and be happy . What i like or works for me , might not be what you like or what works the best for you . we are all different .
I would not use the clip draw, i would carry it in a good holster but then again that is just me . |
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Quoted:
Do you like the way that the gun is set up , if so then have at it . It's your gun , you spent your hard earn cash for it , set it up like you want it and be happy . What i like or works for me , might not be what you like or what works the best for you . we are all different . I would not use the clip draw, i would carry it in a good holster but then again that is just me . Thank you man. Can I ask why though? I have heard a lot of "they are junk", "I wouldnt carry with one", "A professional would never use it", but I havent heard why. |
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1 –– you need to get some training. Your posts indicate a complete lack of understanding of VA law on self defense (I lived there for 12 years and carried for the last 4 or 5).
2 –– clip draw is, in my opinion, asinine. A Glock is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, in a proper holster that covers the trigger. In the time it takes you to draw and chamber a round, I guarantee you I can draw and get at least 2 aimed rounds downrange –– and I don't consider myself any kind of exceptionally good pistol shot. That time difference, in a true self-defense situation, is the difference between life and death. If you've ever watched a Tueller drill, you would understand what I mean. You will almost never have time to draw and chamber a round if your life is truly threatened. Also, if you are incapacitated, already in a physical fight, one of your arms or hands is broken, injured, or holding the bad guy's gun away from you –– in other words you are truly fighting for your life and need your gun in the fight, you're straight up fucked and might as well draw and use it for a $500 club. Also, many stoppages occur when chambering a round in a semi-auto –– in my experience about 30% or maybe a bit more. Add in the stress factor, the fight factor, and you may very well induce a stoppage when you rack the slide. Now, again, you've got a nice $500 club in your hand while you get beaten to death or shot. Get some training. Blackwater has good courses, they're well worth the time and money, and you'll probably change your mind very quickly about the clip draw (they won't let you use it in their courses, IIRC, and I don't think any reputable training firm will). I came off pretty harsh in this post. In a way, that was my intention. I don't mean to denigrate you or your choices, only to make you aware that you are making choices that may very well at some point get you killed in a completely survivable situation. Carrying a gun is a tremendous responsibility –– you need to know the laws that govern its use, and you need to know them well. VA has no real training requirement for a CCW permit, and while I hate to see a right encumbered by a law that requires a class to exercise it, I believe anyone who wants to carry, should, of their own accord, get some training to ensure they are fully aware of the laws, and have enough experience to make the right choices. I was able to get my permit without any real training of any kind –– my military ID was proof of firearms experience under VA law. I had no idea how much I did not know until I had to take a class from the DA out here in Nevada to get my permit here. |
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Quoted:
1 –– you need to get some training. Your posts indicate a complete lack of understanding of VA law on self defense (I lived there for 12 years and carried for the last 4 or 5). 2 –– clip draw is, in my opinion, asinine. A Glock is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, in a proper holster that covers the trigger. In the time it takes you to draw and chamber a round, I guarantee you I can draw and get at least 2 aimed rounds downrange –– and I don't consider myself any kind of exceptionally good pistol shot. That time difference, in a true self-defense situation, is the difference between life and death. If you've ever watched a Tueller drill, you would understand what I mean. You will almost never have time to draw and chamber a round if your life is truly threatened. Also, if you are incapacitated, already in a physical fight, one of your arms or hands is broken, injured, or holding the bad guy's gun away from you –– in other words you are truly fighting for your life and need your gun in the fight, you're straight up fucked and might as well draw and use it for a $500 club. Also, many stoppages occur when chambering a round in a semi-auto –– in my experience about 30% or maybe a bit more. Add in the stress factor, the fight factor, and you may very well induce a stoppage when you rack the slide. Now, again, you've got a nice $500 club in your hand while you get beaten to death or shot. Get some training. Blackwater has good courses, they're well worth the time and money, and you'll probably change your mind very quickly about the clip draw (they won't let you use it in their courses, IIRC, and I don't think any reputable training firm will). I came off pretty harsh in this post. In a way, that was my intention. I don't mean to denigrate you or your choices, only to make you aware that you are making choices that may very well at some point get you killed in a completely survivable situation. Carrying a gun is a tremendous responsibility –– you need to know the laws that govern its use, and you need to know them well. VA has no real training requirement for a CCW permit, and while I hate to see a right encumbered by a law that requires a class to exercise it, I believe anyone who wants to carry, should, of their own accord, get some training to ensure they are fully aware of the laws, and have enough experience to make the right choices. I was able to get my permit without any real training of any kind –– my military ID was proof of firearms experience under VA law. I had no idea how much I did not know until I had to take a class from the DA out here in Nevada to get my permit here. I got my permit through a course at the NRA HQ. Our instructor told us explicitly that you better be damn sure your life is in imminent danger before even considering drawing your weapon. Also, you better be sure that there is intent and the means to carry out such and act is there. Your first thought should be how to remove yourself from the threat. Not stand your ground and fight. In fact, they said that should you ever have to use your weapon, expect to have it removed by the authorities, expect to be placed under arrest, and pending an investigation, it will be decided if you were justified in your actions. For example, even if someone raises their shirt to expose a weapon and tells me they are going to kill me, I would have a hard time justifying my use of deadly force because while the means and intent were there, there was no explicit action to carry out said threat. And while you may very well be able to draw and send two rounds down range before I can draw and chamber a round, think logically about what kind of defensive situations the average citizen finds themselves in. More often than not they are caught by surprise or otherwise unaware of their attacker. If you are walking down the street with your signifcant other and a man rounds the corner with a gun pointed two feet away from you, what is your next move going to be? If you are in the back of a convenience store and a man enters with a gun to the clerks head, what is your next move going to be? If you are in a mall and a lunatic is running around aimlessly firing his weapon what is your next move going to be? This isnt Iraq (although Blackwater did a knock out job over there, which is probably why Triple Canopy has most of their contracts now). For most people on the street, the fight is over before they even knew they were in one. Again though, nobody has told me WHY the clip draw is so frowned upon. Is it because the trigger is exposed? Is it because the clip fastens to the rear of the slide? I carry my gun with safety and the responsibility I hold at the forefront of my mind each and every day. Here is a good read from the Virigina Civil Defense League: http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/Virginia-self-defense-cases.pdf: The “bare fear” of serious bodily injury, or even death, however well-grounded, will not justify the taking of human life. . . . “There must [also] be some overt act indicative of imminent danger at the time.” (citations omitted). In other words, a defendant “must wait till some overt act is done[,] . . . till the danger becomes imminent.” (citation omitted). In the context of a self-defense plea, “imminent danger” is defined as “[a]n immediate, real threat to one's safety . . . .” (citation omitted). “There must be . . . some act menacing present peril . . . [and] [t]he act . . . must be of such a character as to afford a reasonable ground for believing there is a design . . . to do some serious bodily harm, and imminent danger of carrying such design into immediate execution.” Please tell me how I am incorrect in my interrpretation of VA law regarding self defense in any of my posts. |
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The main reason the clip draw is a bad ideal , is the firearm should not be carried with one in the pipe . Look at any of your training schools , i do not know of any that would let anyone in that had a clip draw . I good holster is better than the clip draw , with a holster you can carry with one in the pipe and be safe doing so .
a good holster covers the trigger for improved safety. a good holster secures the gun when you're active. a good holster breaks up the gun's imprint to improve concealment. a good holster does all the above comfortably. |
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Quoted:
The main reason the clip draw is a bad ideal , is the firearm should not be carried with one in the pipe . Look at any of your training schools , i do not know of any that would let anyone in that had a clip draw . I good holster is better than the clip draw , with a holster you can carry with one in the pipe and be safe doing so . a good holster covers the trigger for improved safety. a good holster secures the gun when you're active. a good holster breaks up the gun's imprint to improve concealment. a good holster does all the above comfortably. So you are saying that a "good holster" improves concealment better than none at all? Have you ever used the clip draw? As I said before, there is a ton of tension on the clip. So much so that once secured, it does not move whatsoever. I could do somersaults all day long and the firearm would not break loose. I do however, agree with the fact that the trigger is left exposed, but to be honest; with a 5.5lb factory trigger pull, no external safety, and what some consider not a true DA pistol...I wouldnt feel comfortable carrying a hot Glock IWB even with the best holster in the world. As I said before, I wouldnt use the clip draw during a match or any kind of training. For every day carry though, it suits me just fine. How long has the private citizen (non-military/law enforcement) been carrying and how many times have you actually had to use your firearm in a defensive situation? I would be willing to bet that a very, very large majority of us will go our entire lives without entering a situation in which a gun or the use of deadly force is an absolute necessity for the preservation of our lives. |
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Quoted:
1 –– you need to get some training. Your posts indicate a complete lack of understanding of VA law on self defense (I lived there for 12 years and carried for the last 4 or 5). 2 –– clip draw is, in my opinion, asinine. A Glock is designed to be carried with a round in the chamber, in a proper holster that covers the trigger. In the time it takes you to draw and chamber a round, I guarantee you I can draw and get at least 2 aimed rounds downrange –– and I don't consider myself any kind of exceptionally good pistol shot. That time difference, in a true self-defense situation, is the difference between life and death. If you've ever watched a Tueller drill, you would understand what I mean. You will almost never have time to draw and chamber a round if your life is truly threatened. Also, if you are incapacitated, already in a physical fight, one of your arms or hands is broken, injured, or holding the bad guy's gun away from you –– in other words you are truly fighting for your life and need your gun in the fight, you're straight up fucked and might as well draw and use it for a $500 club. Also, many stoppages occur when chambering a round in a semi-auto –– in my experience about 30% or maybe a bit more. Add in the stress factor, the fight factor, and you may very well induce a stoppage when you rack the slide. Now, again, you've got a nice $500 club in your hand while you get beaten to death or shot. Get some training. Blackwater has good courses, they're well worth the time and money, and you'll probably change your mind very quickly about the clip draw (they won't let you use it in their courses, IIRC, and I don't think any reputable training firm will). I came off pretty harsh in this post. In a way, that was my intention. I don't mean to denigrate you or your choices, only to make you aware that you are making choices that may very well at some point get you killed in a completely survivable situation. Carrying a gun is a tremendous responsibility –– you need to know the laws that govern its use, and you need to know them well. VA has no real training requirement for a CCW permit, and while I hate to see a right encumbered by a law that requires a class to exercise it, I believe anyone who wants to carry, should, of their own accord, get some training to ensure they are fully aware of the laws, and have enough experience to make the right choices. I was able to get my permit without any real training of any kind –– my military ID was proof of firearms experience under VA law. I had no idea how much I did not know until I had to take a class from the DA out here in Nevada to get my permit here. I got my permit through a course at the NRA HQ. Our instructor told us explicitly that you better be damn sure your life is in imminent danger before even considering drawing your weapon. Also, you better be sure that there is intent and the means to carry out such and act is there. Your first thought should be how to remove yourself from the threat. Not stand your ground and fight. In fact, they said that should you ever have to use your weapon, expect to have it removed by the authorities, expect to be placed under arrest, and pending an investigation, it will be decided if you were justified in your actions. For example, even if someone raises their shirt to expose a weapon and tells me they are going to kill me, I would have a hard time justifying my use of deadly force because while the means and intent were there, there was no overt action to carry out said threat. And while you may very well be able to draw and send two rounds down range before I can draw and chamber a round, think logically about what kind of defensive situations the average citizen finds themselves in. More often than not they are caught by surprise or otherwise unaware of their attacker. If you are walking down the street with your signifcant other and a man rounds the corner with a gun pointed two feet away from you, what is your next move going to be? If you are in the back of a convenience store and a man enters with a gun to the clerks head, what is your next move going to be? If you are in a mall and a lunatic is running around aimlessly firing his weapon what is your next move going to be? This isnt Iraq (although Blackwater did a knock out job over there, which is probably why Triple Canopy has most of their contracts now). For most people on the street, the fight is over before they even knew they were in one. Again though, nobody has told me WHY the clip draw is so frowned upon. Is it because the trigger is exposed? Is it because the clip fastens to the rear of the slide? I carry my gun with safety and the responsibility I hold at the forefront of my mind each and every day. Here is a good read from the Virigina Civil Defense League: http://www.vcdl.org/pdf/Virginia-self-defense-cases.pdf: The “bare fear” of serious bodily injury, or even death, however well-grounded, will not justify the taking of human life. . . . “There must [also] be some overt act indicative of imminent danger at the time.” (citations omitted). In other words, a defendant “must wait till some overt act is done[,] . . . till the danger becomes imminent.” (citation omitted). In the context of a self-defense plea, “imminent danger” is defined as “[a]n immediate, real threat to one's safety . . . .” (citation omitted). “There must be . . . some act menacing present peril . . . [and] [t]he act . . . must be of such a character as to afford a reasonable ground for believing there is a design . . . to do some serious bodily harm, and imminent danger of carrying such design into immediate execution.” Please tell me how I am incorrect in my interrpretation of VA law regarding self defense in any of my posts. If someone rounds a corner with a gun up aimed at me, the first thing I'm going to do is attack him, do everything I can to control his weapon while I draw my weapon (that has a round in the chamber and is ready to fire). That's the exact situation I spelled out –– you don't have the luxury of drawing, using two hands to chamber a round, getting a nice two handed grip, getting a nice sight picture, thinking about for a bit, trying to decide if you're in danger of bodily harm, and then shooting. Violent action must be met with violent reaction if you want to survive a situation like that. Submitting to the attacker will get you killed –– nobody wants a witness, and the penalties for murder really aren't that much more than for armed robbery, and they stand a much better chance of not being convicted if there are no eyewitnesses to testify at trial. Criminals have figured this out. If someone walks in a convenience store and puts a gun to the clerk's head, he's going to get shot. He's threatening the life of a person in my presence, and he's got the means to carry out his threat, and inaction on my part would be a renouncement of my duty as a member of the human race. If I'm in a mall and somebody's running around shooting people, I'm going to do everything in my power to stop him. Those are easy questions, and I think you've taken your interpretation of the law all the way to the wrong side if the answers aren't obvious to you. In any of those circumstances, I would fully expect that the police would take my weapon when it was all over. I doubt I would be arrested, though I'm sure I'd be detained until they figured out what was going on and whether or not my lawyer was telling them the truth and what not. No issues there –– I expect them to do their jobs, and some minor inconvenience to me in exchange for getting to keep my family alive is okay with me. Your statements regarding intent, attempting to remove yourself from the fight, etc are not wrong –– your interpretation is horribly flawed. If a person walks up to me, lifts their shirt to show me a weapon, and tells me they're going to kill me, they're going to get shot. They have demonstrated that they have the means to kill me (a gun), and have declared their intent to do so (raising the shirt to display a weapon is an overt act –– it's the first part of drawing that weapon). That is imminent danger, and at that point I have a justified fear for my life due to his declared intent to kill me and demonstrated means to do so, and he's going to get shot, and it will be a good shoot. Even in VA. What would be the other option? Turn my back on him and get shot in the back? Call 911? Talk to him nicely and hope he doesn't kill my kid? Cry and beg for my life? Not so much –– especially if my family is with me. If he does the same thing with a knife, it's going to be the exact same result. Now –– if he does that, and I draw my weapon, and as I'm drawing it, he turns and runs, the threat goes away and nobody's getting shot. And I'll draw a deep sigh of relief and thank God I didn't have to shoot him. Now –– if my neighbor and I get into an argument, and he says "I could just kill you for that" in an angry tone, and I'm carrying a weapon –– it is my duty to attempt to defuse that situation, retreat if possible, and generally do everything in my power NOT to shoot him. If I'm in a bar (I know, not in VA, but bear with me –– it's legal where I live now), and somebody challenges me to fight them –– again, it's my duty to retreat, attempt to defuse the situation, get out of the area, etc... Because in both of those situations, while I may feel some danger, the other person has not necessarily demonstrated a means to carry out his threat, and as long as they do not do so, I won't be justified in fearing for my life. "Bare fear" as the VCDL statement says, is certainly not a reason to shoot somebody. Justified fear, if someone has demonstrated their intent and ability to kill me, is. If you don't like Blackwater (which proves to me you don't know anything about them –– I have had training from them, and they're the most professional organization I know of –– don't believe everything you read in the MSM), there are plenty of other organizations that do training. I'm not only talking about CCW training, I'm talking about basic pistol use. The problem with the clip draw is primarily that it does not cover the trigger, and as a result you cannot carry the Glock safely with a round in the chamber. In addition, it does not secure the weapon to your body well. Try running with one and you'll see what I mean –– there's a good possibility it will work its way out of your pocket and fall out. Try out a good IWB holster (my choice is the Desantis Scorpion, many like the CTAC and MTAC holsters) and you'll see that it conceals better, the draw is probably quicker (sights don't get hung up your pocket), you don't get a bunch of lint in your gun, you don't have to worry about your gun falling out, and above all, you can carry with a round in the chamber without any worry of the trigger hitting something in your pocket and shooting a hole in your leg (which is a very real worry with a 3.5lb trigger, in my opinion). In my opinion, and I don't think I'm alone in this, a gun with an empty chamber is a shitty club, and not worth anything for anything else. If you are in fear for your life, you won't have time, and may not have the ability, to chamber a round. |
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The main reason the clip draw is a bad ideal , is the firearm should not be carried with one in the pipe . Look at any of your training schools , i do not know of any that would let anyone in that had a clip draw . I good holster is better than the clip draw , with a holster you can carry with one in the pipe and be safe doing so . a good holster covers the trigger for improved safety. a good holster secures the gun when you're active. a good holster breaks up the gun's imprint to improve concealment. a good holster does all the above comfortably. So you are saying that a "good holster" improves concealment better than none at all? Have you ever used the clip draw? As I said before, there is a ton of tension on the clip. So much so that once secured, it does not move whatsoever. I could do somersaults all day long and the firearm would not break loose. I do however, agree with the fact that the trigger is left exposed, but to be honest; with a 5.5lb factory trigger pull, no external safety, and what some consider not a true DA pistol...I wouldnt feel comfortable carrying a hot Glock IWB even with the best holster in the world. As I said before, I wouldnt use the clip draw during a match or any kind of training. For every day carry though, it suits me just fine. How long has the private citizen (non-military/law enforcement) been carrying and how many times have you actually had to use your firearm in a defensive situation? I would be willing to bet that a very, very large majority of us will go our entire lives without entering a situation in which a gun or the use of deadly force is an absolute necessity for the preservation of our lives. So why carry a gun at all? I know I'll likely never draw my weapon. I hope to God I never have to draw my weapon. But be damned sure I'm going to give myself every single advantage I can in case I have to. If you don't feel comfortable carrying a Glock hot, you shouldn't carry a Glock. You don't trust your weapon, and it's not safe to carry a weapon you don't trust. I've carried a Glock for about 6 years now (ALWAYS with a round in the chamber), in a variety of holsters (Galco summer comfort IWB, Fobus OWB, Desantis Scorpion), and never had the slightest problem with any of them. If you wouldn't use the clip draw during training (no one would allow you to), you shouldn't use it for carry. It's a ridiculous answer to a question nobody asked. |
| If you do not feel safe carry with one in the chamber , then you need a different gun Glocks are not for you . I have been carrying a Glock for 13 yrs with one in the pipe and i have never had a problem, Glocks are just as safe as any other handgun , The best safety is the one between your ears .. I have never used a clip draw and i never will , i only carry in a good holster, I know the schools i have been to you would not be allowed into them with a clip draw. |
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Joshki,
I think you may be the one with a skewed sense of the law man, and I hope you have a good lawyer on retainer for it. If the police show up and there is a man on the ground with four holes in his chest and a gun STILL HOLSTERED and you are standing there with yours still smoking...he is going to the morgue and you are going to jail. I know people who spent a considerable amount of time in a penitentary for killing someone in situations much like described. This isnt a shoot first ask questions later society. I take it you are militarty, which would explain your affinity for groups like BW and your notion that you are the strongest man alive and would be able to over power an attacker with a loaded gun pointed at you before any rounds are fired. Even before complying with his demands. How was the kool aid? Chances are you are going to get yourself and anyone with you killed. And my mention of the convenience store hold up and the mall were made to prove a point that in those situations you would have plenty of time to chamber a round. If an attacker on the street wants your life and has a gun, more often than not, yours is his to do with as he pleases. I love how you think you are going to fight your way out of a situation with someone who already has beads on you. Seriously? And, just because someone has the means to terminate your life and threatens to do so does not mean intent. Simply showing a gun is not an overt action of deadly force. Maybe you are right, though. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I think many people in here have this I have a gun, I am invincible attitude and unfortunately that is just not the reality of the situation. Has anyone here ever been witness to a home invasion? Has anyone here ever seen a man gunned down in the streets? Its not a movie. I choose to carry a firearm for my own reasons and I choose to defend myself how I see fit. I use a clip draw and I dont carry chambered. I try to go to the range 3 - 4 times a week (how many who have judged me in this thread can say the same?), I shot and IPSC style course for 5 hours straight last Sunday, I am a good shot, I practice safe handling practices, and I know all my guns inside and out. I do all the gunsmithing and maintenance on them (even the AR). I would consider myself a little more than the average shooter who may go to the range once every six months, not even know how to clean their gun, and thinks that because they have it on them that are invincible. |
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Keep grasping at straws, jtg40cal. Your reasoning is flawed beyond recognition. You do what you want though, it's a free country. Go ahead and do what you want. I'm certainly not here to teach you or anyone else. Says the guy with a, "have a plan to kill everyone you meet" sig line. You and Joshki (the IT guy who touts groups like Black Water just because he has some affilitation with the military and seriously thinks he can cover 4 feet of ground and fight off a man with a loaded gun before a trigger is pulled) can be cellmates. You'll probably have to fight him for top bunk though. hahaha! And my reasoning is flawed. Let me ask you guys this...if you had a criminal mind, had the drop on someone, approached them with your gun drawn, round chambered, and safety off...would they be able to fight you off before you were able to fire your weapon? Do you guys even read case law? Do you know what precedents have been set forth in your State regarding the use of deadly force? Or let me put this question out there. For those that have commented in this thread, in all your years of civilian carry, truthfully - how many times have you been in a situation where your life has been in imminent danger? How many times have you had to draw your weapon or fight off an attacker with a gun? Or are you commenting based off of heresay and pipe dreams? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Keep grasping at straws, jtg40cal. Your reasoning is flawed beyond recognition. You do what you want though, it's a free country. Go ahead and do what you want. I'm certainly not here to teach you or anyone else. Says the guy with a, "have a plan to kill everyone you meet" sig line. You and Joshki can be cellmates. You'll probably have to fight him for top bunk though. Let me ask you guys this...if you had a criminal mind, had the drop on someone, approached them with your gun drawn, round chambered, and safety off...would they be able to fight you off before you were able to fire your weapon? Do you guys even read case law? Do you know what precedents have been set forth in your State regarding the use of deadly force? Or let me put this question out there. For those that have commented in this thread, in all your years of civilian carry, truthfully - how many times have you been in a situation where your life has been in imminent danger? How many times have you had to draw your weapon or fight off an attacker with a gun? Or are you commenting based off of heresay and pipe dreams? These guys are just trying to give you a little perspective. In some situations, just presenting a gun in an unknown state to an attacker may do the trick and no one is dead. What they are trying to tell you is you don't always have the choice of determining how it is going to go down. If you have a gun, but it isn't ready to fire, there are an equal number of situations where this could end up in YOU being the one that is dead. That's all they are trying to say. You NEVER know how an encounter is going to go down. Having one in the chamber eliminates a large percentage of potential situations you may encounter without the luxury of being forewarned. Go easy on some folks who are just trying to help. |
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Keep grasping at straws, jtg40cal. Your reasoning is flawed beyond recognition. You do what you want though, it's a free country. Go ahead and do what you want. I'm certainly not here to teach you or anyone else. Says the guy with a, "have a plan to kill everyone you meet" sig line. You and Joshki can be cellmates. You'll probably have to fight him for top bunk though. Let me ask you guys this...if you had a criminal mind, had the drop on someone, approached them with your gun drawn, round chambered, and safety off...would they be able to fight you off before you were able to fire your weapon? Do you guys even read case law? Do you know what precedents have been set forth in your State regarding the use of deadly force? Or let me put this question out there. For those that have commented in this thread, in all your years of civilian carry, truthfully - how many times have you been in a situation where your life has been in imminent danger? How many times have you had to draw your weapon or fight off an attacker with a gun? Or are you commenting based off of heresay and pipe dreams? These guys are just trying to give you a little perspective. In some situations, just presenting a gun in an unknown state to an attacker may do the trick and no one is dead. What they are trying to tell you is you don't always have the choice of determining how it is going to go down. If you have a gun, but it isn't ready to fire, there are an equal number of situations where this could end up in YOU being the one that is dead. That's all they are trying to say. You NEVER know how an encounter is going to go down. Having one in the chamber eliminates a large percentage of potential situations you may encounter without the luxury of being forewarned. Go easy on some folks who are just trying to help. There is a difference between trying to help and insinuating that someone is a complete moron. And honestly, I think that a few in here are speaking based on how they imagine a situation unfolding and not reality. I would ask Joshki and vini if either of them have ever seen someone gunned down in the streets? Do they even know anyone who has? Have they themselves ever been the victim? I can name three friends off the top of my head who have been victims of gun violence. Let me know if you would like me to send you the links to their stories in the paper. Joshki, one of them tried to play Rambo and fight off a man that invaded his home. He fought with him in the street and took two bullets to the stomach. He died on the sidewalk in front of my house. Danny was shot 9 times while he sat in his car in his own driveway. He never saw them coming. Other friends in the house heard the shots and came out to find Danny dead behind the wheel (stereo still on). Mike was shot by a guy he knew in the front yard of his ex girlfriend's house. He and Sean (her new boyfriend) were arguing out front. Mike threatened Sean's life. Sean said he feard for his safety and shot Mike. Sean spent the next 5 years in prison. As I already mentioned, while in college, my house was invaded by masked gun men. I was not home at the time but three of my roommates were bound and beaten while the house was robbed. Also as I mentioned, last summer the police gunned a man down in front of my building who had a gun in his hand. So yes, I know the reality of these types of situations very well. Enough that my reasoning is less than skewed. Whatever though. Im not going to spend all day aruing these points. Im done and going to the range to practice. |
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Okay, well, seeing "shit" go down is no substitute for training. Yes, I have seen people be shot, and hell no, it's not good. And hell no, I'm sure not gonna talk about it here.
How YOU are characterized here is being determined by YOUR own posts................................you're digging your own hole here. But you know what, jtg40cal, this is going WAY off topic. This kind of discussion doesn't belong in the Glock Forum, a technical forum for the discussion of Glock pistols. With the direction this thread is heading in, it should probably be in Handgun Discussions, better yet Carry Issues or the Training Forum. It's getting to the point where it no longer belongs here. I'm not gonna discuss it with you anymore though, here or anywhere else...............you don't seem to get what we're getting at. Go get some actual professional training though, if possible, you'll see what we're talking about. I'm not here to train or teach you. Keep at it though.........................you're doing great.
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The only thing I would add to this would be, I know how difficult it can be to rack the slide of a glock with sweaty hands or due to rain, blood etc (okay I've never bled on my glock, but I doubt it is different).... If I carried chamber empty and needed to employ my weapon under these conditions with the compounded stress of the situation, I would probably end up short-stroking the slide or causing a malf..
Nice piece, though, good luck to you. |
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Joshki, I think you may be the one with a skewed sense of the law man, and I hope you have a good lawyer on retainer for it. If the police show up and there is a man on the ground with four holes in his chest and a gun STILL HOLSTERED and you are standing there with yours still smoking...he is going to the morgue and you are going to jail. I know people who spent a considerable amount of time in a penitentary for killing someone in situations much like described. This isnt a shoot first ask questions later society. I take it you are militarty, which would explain your affinity for groups like BW and your notion that you are the strongest man alive and would be able to over power an attacker with a loaded gun pointed at you before any rounds are fired. Even before complying with his demands. How was the kool aid? Chances are you are going to get yourself and anyone with you killed. And my mention of the convenience store hold up and the mall were made to prove a point that in those situations you would have plenty of time to chamber a round. If an attacker on the street wants your life and has a gun, more often than not, yours is his to do with as he pleases. I love how you think you are going to fight your way out of a situation with someone who already has beads on you. Seriously? And, just because someone has the means to terminate your life and threatens to do so does not mean intent. Simply showing a gun is not an overt action of deadly force. Maybe you are right, though. Its better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I think many people in here have this I have a gun, I am invincible attitude and unfortunately that is just not the reality of the situation. Has anyone here ever been witness to a home invasion? Has anyone here ever seen a man gunned down in the streets? Its not a movie. I choose to carry a firearm for my own reasons and I choose to defend myself how I see fit. I use a clip draw and I dont carry chambered. I try to go to the range 3 - 4 times a week (how many who have judged me in this thread can say the same?), I shot and IPSC style course for 5 hours straight last Sunday, I am a good shot, I practice safe handling practices, and I know all my guns inside and out. I do all the gunsmithing and maintenance on them (even the AR). I would consider myself a little more than the average shooter who may go to the range once every six months, not even know how to clean their gun, and thinks that because they have it on them that are invincible. All right man... you're unteachable, so I'm out. Just trying to help. |
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Keep grasping at straws, jtg40cal. Your reasoning is flawed beyond recognition. You do what you want though, it's a free country. Go ahead and do what you want. I'm certainly not here to teach you or anyone else. Says the guy with a, "have a plan to kill everyone you meet" sig line. You and Joshki (the IT guy who touts groups like Black Water just because he has some affilitation with the military and seriously thinks he can cover 4 feet of ground and fight off a man with a loaded gun before a trigger is pulled) can be cellmates. You'll probably have to fight him for top bunk though. hahaha! And my reasoning is flawed. Let me ask you guys this...if you had a criminal mind, had the drop on someone, approached them with your gun drawn, round chambered, and safety off...would they be able to fight you off before you were able to fire your weapon? Do you guys even read case law? Do you know what precedents have been set forth in your State regarding the use of deadly force? Or let me put this question out there. For those that have commented in this thread, in all your years of civilian carry, truthfully - how many times have you been in a situation where your life has been in imminent danger? How many times have you had to draw your weapon or fight off an attacker with a gun? Or are you commenting based off of heresay and pipe dreams? There are a lot of people who work in IT who do lots of other things as well... Just so you know. You should really look up the Tueller drill if you think someone 4 feet away from you with a gun is invincible. He's not. And "some affiliation with the military" does not accurately describe my service. If you had any idea what you were talking about my avatar should tell you a great deal more than "some affiliation." "have a plan to kill everyone you meet" is a mindset –– be prepared, don't walk around like one of the sheep. Okay –– now I'm really done with this thread. Last time I try to help a noob around here. |
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Carrying without a round in the chamber implies that you are uncomfortable with your weapon. This is mainly where the training comes in. Any good instructor (and I'm not talking about the guy who took a class from the NRA and is now a certified self defense instructor) with relevant background who has been there and done that will tell you that when the shit hits the fan, you need your gun to work, and RIGHT AWAY.
We all carry because of the situations we CANT control. You never know how that situation may come or go. You ask how many times people have had to draw. Irrelevant. Nobody thought anyone would fly any planes into the WTC, but shit happens. Carry is about being able to defend yourself in the worst of conditions. Conditions that neither you nor I can predict. Whos to say you don't take a shot to the arm? Who is to say you're not forced to grab your child or wife, move her out of the line of fire and return fire ASAP to save a life? The one thing your instructor said that was right on was this- if you draw your gun, you better be DAMN sure your life is in imminent danger. Guess what, you really think you're going to have time during an imminent danger scenario to work a slide? Maybe you do. As people have stated, its a free country. You can carry how you want, and you can also get yourself killed if you want. At what point during the above scenarios do you think you'll have time to grab a slide and load your firearm when your adrenaline is dumping faster than anything you've ever experienced? At what point can you garauntee that you'll be able to actually do all of that? Maybe you can, but if anything went wrong just once, you're fucked. Self defense scenarios are alot more survivable when you can eliminate the amount of steps necessary to stop the threat. I want to be able to grab my pistol, point it, and squeeze the trigger. I may only have one hand to do this. Most situations occur at arms reach, and you may be shooting from retention. While you're busy loading your pistol, I will have drawn, rotated my fiream at your torso and put 10 rounds into you because you needed two hands to operate a Glock in a scenario where you only had one available. All I can say is, the way you are carrying now is basically useless, and its more of a liability. If your gun isn't ready to get into the fight, then you aren't. All that means is your gun isn't a self defense tool, its a black object that says "hey badguy, shoot me because what you perceive as a threat is really just an expensive paperweight". Clipdraws suck not because of what they are, but because of how they are implemented. Safe with a clipdraw= empty chamber. You, nor anyone else will ever be able to come close to making a valid point for empty chamber carry being anything even remotely close to smart. Your defensive tool should be loaded, and ready to DEFEND, as that is its purpose. This fact inherently makes the clipdraw suck, because if you carry it loaded its not safe, and if you carry it unloaded, you're, to be blunt...ignorant. Get yourself a good holster. Comp-tac MTAC is very comfortable. Keep one in the pipe, and take some training. And somewhere down the line if you ever have to use your Glock in a scenario that according to the statistics is most likely to occur, you can come back here and thank me, because most of those scenarios involve one hand being needed for something other than making your gun ready. As far as you coming in here with 30 some odd posts and getting all bent out of shape, not everyone everywhere is going to like your shit. Either grow a thick skin, or realize that virtually everyone here is telling you clipdraws suck for a reason. If you dont want discussion, don't post in a discussion forum. Don't come on here with an attitude and get defensive because someone who, believe it or not, may just know a little bit more than you is trying to do something that will benefit you and anyone else unfortunate enough to be around you when you pull out a gun that doesn't work and turn you and everyone around you into a bullet magnet. I don't always agree with the lemming idea, but lets just put it this way. In this case, this is one time where you really should conform to the crowd, because the crowd is right, and to be brutally honest....you are not. |
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I tried one of those clip draws a long time ago, two main reasons I don't like them...
The pistol shifts around, does not stay in one spot like a proper holster will do. I like to carry with one in the pipe, and with the clip draw I would not feel safe doing so. |
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Alright guys, this is gonna be a long one, but we definitely got off on the wrong foot here. First, I want to apologize to Vini and Joshki for the few jabs I took at them. Joshki, thank you for your service to this country. The last thing I would ever want to do is blatantly insult someone who has served. I recognized your decorations before I made my comment. I just said it to get under your skin. Please realize that while I may be new to the forum, I am not new to a gun. I am going to stand by my assertion that we have different interpretations of the law though. Where you see intent, I simply see a threat. Unfortunately, I don’t think a simple threat to do harm is enough to justify deadly force. Just remember, while you may understand the seriousness of a situation, the police could see things much differently. As I was told, you can expect to at the very least be charged after a shooting. The findings from a preliminary investigation will determine whether formal charges will be brought against you. If they are, well then your fate could very well rest in the hands of 12 people who weren’t even there.
Vini, my comments were uncalled for and mostly due to frustration unrelated to anything on here. The last thing I want to do is come across as some punk kid who thinks he knows everything. If there is one thing I do know, its that my shit stinks just as bad as the next guy’s. The "That fucking sucks" and "You are a fucking idiot who doesn't know shit" comments were pushing buttons last night and early today. Believe it or not, I do have pretty thick skin, but sometimes when I get shoved, I shove back. If there is one thing my dad taught me about guns over 20 years ago, its that safety comes first and foremost. As I progressed he taught me the fundamentals and to be aware of my surroundings. In recent years I have had the privilege to shoot with competition guys, LE, and Military (A buddy of mine works for the State Dept. - Special Weapons Training and Tactics and is actually the one who gave me the Trijicons on my Glock). Anyways, one thing I have always been aware of is the fact that there are people out there who know MUCH more about firearms, training, maintenance, and tactics than I will ever know. Each time I shoot with people I pick a little something up. I consider myself an above average shot, but know that I still have a lot to learn. Anyways, I was able to go to the range today to blow off some steam and had some time to cool off about that other stuff so this is me apologizing for coming across as a douche bag in my previous posts. The reason I brought up my own personal experiences with gun violence was not come across as Billy bad ass, but to try and communicate the fact that I have seen first hand, how in the streets, you can be caught completely off guard with no time to react. I guess in those situations, if its your time to go, its your time to go. My friend Danny never got a chance to know who killed him. I mentioned my friend Morat to show that standing your ground and fighting your aggressor could very easily end in tragedy. As I mentioned, while wrestling with his armed attacker he was shot twice in the stomach. He managed to stumble just a short block (while the coward fled) and dropped dead right in front of my house. Anyways, since they frown upon taking pictures or recording video at the NRA range, I took a couple quick videos of my draw (what I practice at the range) at home. Of course these are without a trigger squeeze as I don’t have any dummy rounds here, but rest assured I am the only one in the room (in the house for that matter) and I am drawing into a brick wall. You should be able to just cut and paste the links into your address bar. Joshki, you mentioned that you could get two shots off before I even racked the slide. I am not saying this as a challenge to you, but could you please tell me where you would pick up the time? Do you mean you could shoot off the hip or from up under the armpit? I understand the 4 point draw and its purpose for firing single-handed from just under the armpit (in case an attacker is fast approaching), but I really think that if I don’t even have the second it takes to draw, rack, (possibly take a side step out of harms way), and get sights on target then I missed the boat and I’m probably already in a world of trouble. How much less time does it take for you to two-hand draw and fire? I understand the notion that saving yourself the time it takes to rack a slide is that much more time you have to defend yourself, but as you can see below, I can draw and chamber a round in under a second. If you don’t have that much time, then you might as well walk around hot and not even bother holstering your weapon. Just keep it high and tight and walk around focusing on the front sight in case you should have to defend yourself. Some people mentioned that it’s not good to carry without a round chambered because what happens if my weak arm is incapacitated and I cant rack the slide? As was also mentioned, you never know how these situations are going to play out so you could just as easily ask, what if your strong arm was incapacitated? Carrying hot or not, how will you draw your weapon? That game of what-if never gets anyone anywhere though, so again, any feedback is appreciated. In this first video, my draw begins at 9 secs (counting down) and I am eyeballing my front sight by 8: http://s59.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/boomchic00/Draw1-1.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1 In the second video, my draw begins at 8 secs and again, I am on my front sights within a second: http://s59.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/boomchic00/Draw2.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1 I understand the notion that waiting until you are in danger to chamber a round could result in a round jamming or the gun otherwise malfunctioning, but that is what continued, regular practice and maintenance is for. Fact of the matter is, guns are mechanical instruments and all are susceptible to failure. If you train with your gun as often as you should, you would know what its “quirks” are. If I knew my Glock had a tendency to misfeed rounds, I certainly would not use it as my primary carry weapon. Just as you would not carry your weapon if you knew it had a tendency to misfire chambered rounds. In all my years shooting with this gun, I do not recall a single time it jammed a round or misfired (well there was one time it was misfiring, but I was shooting junk, reload ammo). I completely strip all my guns if not immediately after shooting, shortly thereafter, and thoroughly clean them. For example my Glock gets broken all the way down to the Safety Plunger after every shoot. My fiancée hates me for it because no matter how many windows we open that smell of solvent gets to her. Lastly, I understand that this method leaves room for human error, but again, training is hoped to mitigate that. I am very close to having my draw committed to muscle memory. It is very easy for me to consistently draw and rack the slide while pulling forward and looking for the front sight. I understand that a situation in which I would have to defend myself will be very high stressed and body’s natural instinct may be to tense up, or as someone mentioned, perspire…but until any of us are forced into those situations, we just don’t know how we will react. Considering most street gun fights are over in 3 – 5 seconds from the time the first shot is fired (again, from NRA), I would like to think I would not have time to tense up or fumble for a gun with sweaty palms. By the time my palms are that sweaty I have hopefully already let a round go and from there on out it’s just a matter or pulling the trigger. I really don’t think I could ever shoot any sweatier than I was last weekend after shooting under the Virginia, August sun for 5 hours straight last Sunday. That was VERY taxing as we were literally running a three gun course from 12pm – 5pm. By the final hour, it took a lot just to stay focused on the task at hand and maintain even the slightest reaction time. So anyways, I hope I have done at least a little something to help clear the air and explain where I am coming from. I’ve attached the videos of my draw, at the risk of continued bashing, for critique and advice. For anyone that might want to still be cute, save the “You fucking suck”, “You are a danger to everyone around you”, and any other bullshit comments you may have. At this point I could care less. If you have those kinds of comments, then I invite you to post videos of your own draw (and fire if you can). Afterwards we can compare dick size and then have a pissing contest. |
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I tried one of those clip draws a long time ago, two main reasons I don't like them... The pistol shifts around, does not stay in one spot like a proper holster will do. I like to carry with one in the pipe, and with the clip draw I would not feel safe doing so. Gibbles, I havent had a problem with the gun moving at all. In fact, it will pretty much stay right where I put it all day, until I move it. I did have a problem with the small screws that are used to mount the clip onto the backplate on the slide back out after excessive shooting. I put some loctite on them and havent had a problem since. |
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It only takes a fraction of a second to chamber a round. Hypothetically speaking, what if your non-dominant arm gets disabled? Can you still chamber a round in a fraction of a second? I'm just saying...you gotta look at the whole picture. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. |
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It only takes a fraction of a second to chamber a round. Hypothetically speaking, what if your non-dominant arm gets disabled? Can you still chamber a round in a fraction of a second? I'm just saying...you gotta look at the whole picture. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Thats a good point, but as someone else mentioned, you never know how a situation is giong to play out. Hypothetically, I could ask what would happen if your dominant arm gets disabled? Would you still be able to draw from and IWB on your hip? I mean you cant pull the gun up and out with your dominant arm because it is disabled and unless you are a contortionist, it would be very difficult to draw from an IWB on the opposite hip with your non-dominant arm. Especially during what others described as a very stressful, life threatening situation. It goes both ways. |
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It's a glock, not a honda civic.... This Care to explain? Other than the Trijicons, all of that aftermarket shit,has no place on a defensive pistol. Exactly. See, I dont get that mentality. If you know how to use it, who cares if your defensive pistol literally has a bell and a whistle on it? Nothing I have done to the Glock has hindered its performance whatsoever. It continues to shoot as reliably as they day I got it from the factory. Meaning, nothing is now jamming, misfeeding, misfiring, or throwing the gun off balance. Also, no matter what I have done, I have continued to shoot extensively with it and maintain my proficiency. The way I look at it, I could put a bull horn on the thing and as long as I was able to accurately, rapidly, and consistently hit center mass...its serving its defensive purpose. I mean its like a Glock guy telling a Sig guy telling a 1911 guy telling a S&W guy telling a CZ guy that their gun sucks for defensive use. Well if any one of those guys can shoot more proficiently than the guy next to him, who is right? Same goes with defensive rounds. Someone may swear up and down that a double stack .45 is the best defensive choice you can make, but they may not be able to shoot for shit. They hit everything, but what they are aiming at. Maybe once in a while they get an even squeeze without pulling or breath just right and a shot may find its target, but generally if it wasnt for gravity, they couldnt hit the ground. Then there is the 9mm guy who can easily and rapidly put two right in that sweet spot of a bad guy's face from 7 yards. Well, which one just became the better defensive round? Its all relative. This sucks, that sucks, you suck, he sucks, what if this, what if that, what if your head were incapacitated because it had a bullet in it. Sure there are basic fundamentals to effectively handling a firearm, and like I said I dont even pretend to know them all (sorry if it comes across that way), but everyone is different. They have different preferences, different abilities, different thresholds. As long as they practice and become good at what they do, I dont see why anyone else has to get their panties in a bunch about it. |
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It only takes a fraction of a second to chamber a round. Hypothetically speaking, what if your non-dominant arm gets disabled? Can you still chamber a round in a fraction of a second? I'm just saying...you gotta look at the whole picture. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Thats a good point, but as someone else mentioned, you never know how a situation is giong to play out. Hypothetically, I could ask what would happen if your dominant arm gets disabled? Would you still be able to draw from and IWB on your hip? I mean you cant pull the gun up and out with your dominant arm because it is disabled and unless you are a contortionist, it would be very difficult to draw from an IWB on the opposite hip with your non-dominant arm. Especially during what others described as a very stressful, life threatening situation. It goes both ways. I would draw my backup weapon, which is on the other side, and engage the target. And yes...........it's already ready to be fired. See how that works? 
Apology accepted, by the way. We're just trying to steer you in the right direction. ETA: Again, I feel we're getting out of the subject area that's usually reserved for the Glock forum. The rest of this would make a decent thread for Carry Issues. |
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Okay, fair enough.
The problem I see with your assertions regarding intent is that you leave yourself no room to ever use your weapon –– which is why I want you to get some training, and not from the NRA. The NRA is good at teaching to avoid liability, and I see that come through loud and clear in your posts. The bottom line, when it comes down to it, is that if you have a justified fear for your life, you may, by law (in VA at least, and this includes case law –– I read VCDL's web page and get all their updates, and have for years), use force to defend your life. Now –– if you are at fault –– if you've started an argument with someone, then you have a much higher standard to meet before it can be considered self defense. But if a mugger draws a gun on me, or displays one, my weapon is coming out. It's his move at that point –– if he chooses not to draw and backs down, then the threat stops, and he's not going to get shot –– but he if he continues to attempt to kill me, I'm going to use the force that is necessary to stop him. That's really what it boils down to, and I think you're simply misunderstanding the terms involved. You are correct that a simple threat to do harm isn't enough (I gave two scenarios like that, and explained the proper response to them, neither of which involved shooting anybody) –– but your scenarios don't involve only a threat. A threat, coupled with the display of a weapon, is clear intent, and self defense is justified in that case. Also, it's very rare in VA (outside NOVA anyway) for a person to be charged after a shooting if it's a good shoot. Detained, sure, but if I have to shoot an armed attacker in the middle of the night walking down the street, my odds are very, very good. Each of your scenarios you've analyzed into the category of "it's a bad shoot for whatever reason" or "you don't have time to shoot so you're just going to get killed, so you should submit" –– I fail to see why you carry a gun with those attitudes. There's no point if you don't believe you can ever legally or successfully use it. I mentioned the Tueller drill earlier –– watch the videos, read about it, get some training where they make you do it. You will learn a great deal about how hard it is to stop a determined attacker... You scoffed at the notion I think I can stop somebody 4 feet away with a gun on me. I KNOW I can stop somebody 4 feet away from me, because I have the mindset to do it, I know that I can close that distance before he can squeeze the trigger (4 feet is essentially within arms reach), and if I'm defending my family's lives I don't care if I get shot in the process anyway –– all that matters is that I stop the attack, using whatever force I have to use. The stories you told, unfortunately don't teach the things you mean for them to. People do get killed. It happens. Sometimes there's nothing you can do about it. But I still stand by my statements wrt keeping your brain switched on and weapon ready –– maybe that wouldn't have saved your friends, but keeping your weapon in a condition where it is not ready to fire only decreases your odds of surviving that kind of a situation. Bottom line, if you're drawing your CCW piece, you're in a world of hurt already. The odds are good that the threat has already closed to within arms distance, and I will be shooting just as soon as I can get my weapon rotated out of the holster. With an attacker at arms distance you don't need your sights, nor will you have the time to bring your weapon up into a two-hand stance and rack the slide. Your draw is pretty fast for a square range scenario, but you don't factor in drawing from concealment, the need to use your other hand to physically fend off a knife attack or attempt to disarm an attacker, or the fact that you may not have time or space to bring your gun up to your other hand, or the fact that you may have been knocked down and broken or injured your other hand or may not be able to use it for whatever reason. Have you ever tried to chamber a round on the right side of your body next to your holster? It's nearly impossible –– we had to train to hook the rear sight on our belts –– that method sucks and you don't ever want to depend on it. You mention draw and two-hand fire –– the beauty of carrying the way the Glock is designed to be carried is that I don't need two hands to operate it if I don't have both available. Your carry method assumes that Murphy will never show up –– that's a really bad assumption if you're carrying a gun, because the day you have to draw it, I can almost guarantee you your luck will have run out and Murphy will be along for the ride. |
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It only takes a fraction of a second to chamber a round. Hypothetically speaking, what if your non-dominant arm gets disabled? Can you still chamber a round in a fraction of a second? I'm just saying...you gotta look at the whole picture. Hope for the best but plan for the worst. Thats a good point, but as someone else mentioned, you never know how a situation is giong to play out. Hypothetically, I could ask what would happen if your dominant arm gets disabled? Would you still be able to draw from and IWB on your hip? I mean you cant pull the gun up and out with your dominant arm because it is disabled and unless you are a contortionist, it would be very difficult to draw from an IWB on the opposite hip with your non-dominant arm. Especially during what others described as a very stressful, life threatening situation. It goes both ways. I can draw from an IWB with either hand without any difficulty at all. Just depends on how you wear it. Unfortunately I don't carry two guns like ViniVidiVici... Yet... Maybe someday. I suspect you can't draw from a front pocket with either hand... |
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jtg40cal,
II think you should use whatever makes you feel comfortable. If using the clipdraw guarantees that you will take your weapon with you instead of leaving it at home, use it. I happen to like carrying without one in the chamber and yes, I also use a clipdraw and yes, my friends have givin me a bunch of crap for doing so but I like it. I would only draw my weapon if there is no other choice and I intend to shoot. Drawing & racking the slide does not add anytime, I practice this at home religiously. Nobody has mentioned the obvious, what if you were to get into a physical fight with someone or they surprised you and took your pistol away, if you have one in the chamber you're done. Don't think it can happen? Ask any LEO how quickly a bad guy can take your weapon away and use it against you. Most bad guys are kinda dumb and won't try racking the slide, they'll sit there pulling the trigger over and over, giving you time to pull your secondary weapon, which of course you're carrying and trained with, right? And for the record, I love Glocks, I feel comfortable with them, I like that they do not have safeties. |
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Apology accepted, by the way. We're just trying to steer you in the right direction. This. As firearms owners, we must make sure we are on top of our game. The libtards love nothing more than for us to make mistakes because it actually gives them something to bitch about. Otherwise, they have nothing against us. There are some on this website who may seem a bit harsh at times, but you gotta learn to take it. No one on this site will try to sabotage you...we are all here to help each other. Quoted:
Hypothetically, I could ask what would happen if your dominant arm gets disabled? That's a good point as well . And that's where proper training comes in to play.
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Adrenaline Rush sets in shutting off fine motor skills. It cannot be completely goten rid of thru training, although it can be lessened to some degree with continuious force on force training. Racking a slide with your fingers is a fine motor skill and will be difficult to do. Hand over slide will be better, but the best advice is carrying with one in the chamber, thus eliminating the possibility of forgetting to rack or not completely racking the slide.
I really do suggest shooters get force on force training with Sims, paintball or other before CCW. My recommendation is always to carry chambered. This comes from first hand experienece both LE and MIL. |
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Thanks guys! I actually love the clip draw. I dont carry hot so I dont have to worry about any misfires. Also, there is PLENTY of tension on the clip. So much so that the firearm doesnt move whatsoever. The only downside is the fact that it is a little difficult to "holster". Other than that I haven't had any issues at all. I would not carry with out a round chamber, for a lot of very good proven reasons. BUT I don't know what " I don't carry hot" has to do with anything. Have you heard rule #1 - ALL guns are loaded So if I am to treat my pistol as "loaded" there is no reason I would stick it in my pants with that crap on it. The trigger is exposed, it could be caught on just about anything. There is no way it is properly held in place. Besides all the safety reasons, I do not want my pistol grip at a different angle all the time. I am not a expert, but I do Liston to people who are knowable - and there are some very knowable people on this site. Might not hurt to Liston to some of them. |