Posted: 2/18/2003 4:28:22 PM EDT
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So this is it.They have drawn the line in the sand ! what are we to do. Me right now I will keep the Glocks I have, but I will never buy any new Glocks. I'm going to try and find something else to buy and fall in love with. I hate decockers and Ex-safetys!! What are you guys going to do? www.gssfonline.com/2002/hot_topics/glockofficialstatement.htm Statement #1 GLOCK is not for gun registration plain and simple. A database of firearm characteristics that are captured at the manufacturing site would actually be an argument again registration. GLOCK is not for retrieving and capturing characteristics of firearms that have already been sold: but, rather, believes consideration should be given to capturing the characteristics on new firearms before sale. This way the characteristics are recorded to a serial number not a citizen and his or her gun. It seems the last point is the most important; the characteristics are tied to a serial number, not a person. This means that since the characteristics are not tied to a person, the ATF would have to do the exact same trace it is entitled by law to do now. Once they receive the cartridge casing from a crime scene, they then would (if the technology works) have a serial number. That way they can go to the manufacturer and ask for the first sale, which, in this case would probably be to a distributor, then they go to the distributor and ask for the name of the dealer and then from the dealer they go to look at the 4473 to see to whom it was sold. If the technology were any good this would seem to be a valuable crime-solving tool, not gun registration. They have the absolute right to do such a trace under the law right now and they do it every single day with every gun manufacturer in existence. To argue against the above scenario would seem to be an argument for criminal anonymity. Too many people are jumping to conclusions; one has to ask oneself, how could some liberal anti-gunner say people registration is necessary if this concept of a serial number being tied to a firearm’s characteristics is viable? Can it be defeated, sure it can. Can a barrel be altered so that standard ballistic identification of a bullet is defeated? Sure it can. But the jails are not full and overcrowded because criminals are geniuses. There are obviously limits that need to be set when one speaks of Government intrusion into the life of a citizen. But that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about recording the mechanical characteristics of a firearm to a serial number and a serial number alone. Will it work? We do not know. Will it be prohibitively expensive? Perhaps it will. But we cannot always just take the knee jerk reaction and say no because we are used to saying no. It needs time and study to either disprove or prove itself. Because criminals are as big a threat to civilian ownership of firearms as the antigun are. If it were not for the criminals the anti-gunners would not have an argument against firearms ownership except that they do not trust the people. Would you not love to be around the day that mask finally comes off? As noted above it is a matter of drawing the line in an intelligent place. And that place may be saying no in this instance, but I do not believe we are at the place and have the necessary information to make that decision. Could ballistic fingerprinting be used as an excuse to go further? Certainly, we are not naïve enough to believe the camel has its nose stuck as far under the tent as it cares to go. The trick is to draw the line on the slippery slope in an intelligent place. Obviously, a national database or DNA registry could be a great crime-solving tool. But will we as Americans allow that level of intrusion into our personal privacy? Of course we will not. Likewise here there has to be a balancing of costs (intrusion into personal freedom) to benefits (potential crime solving tool). And, since there is no intrusion into our personal freedom and there is a potential for it to be crime-solving tool the equation clearly comes down on the side of waiting to see if the technology has any viability. Statement #2 ( posted February 11, 2003 ) GLOCK IS NOT keeping a database on ballistic fingerprint of GLOCK pistols being shipped and neither are we giving anyone else data to retain. We are not collecting any data that could be put into a database. The questions about ballistic fingerprinting were conceptual in nature as the technology is yet to be proven. Yes, GLOCK is capturing shell casings at the time of test firing. For a firearm to be shipped to either Maryland or New York it must be accompanied by shell casings. Otherwise, law abiding citizens in Maryland and New York could not purchase handguns of any sort. Since GLOCK may be the only handgun manufacturer that test fires every single weapon it ships, we capture shell casings from each pistol and put them in a manila envelope. Nothing further is done with the shell casings. No ballistic fingerprint is taken, no data is collected and, therefore, no data is or can be stored. We capture every shell casing so that the distribution network does not have to distinguish between firearms legal for sale in Maryland and New York and those legal for sale in the rest of the country. This is done for two reasons: one, it is easier for our distributors and dealers to maintain inventory and to ship to all 50 states; and, two, it helps to avoid shipping the wrong firearm to Maryland and New York and subjecting an unsuspecting dealer to criminal charges for selling an illegal firearm. |
A lot of good points made herewww.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=170845&page=1 |
| I personaly don't care if they can find out what a fired bullet from my gun looks like or it's spent shell caseings look like, If I do shoot someone, The next thing I'm going to do is call the law. So if knowing what my empties and ball looks like makes them feel better, that's fine. And if they ever do come to take my gun away they won't need the first bullet ever fired from it, I'll be giving them all they will ever want and plenty of empty shell caseings also. |
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It is no more registration than the yellow sheet paper trail they already keep. I also plan to call in any shooting. GLOCK is ridiculously pro cop, this should surprise no one. The IBIS info has also been out there for at least three years. Again, this should surprise no one. |
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This is all internet quote stuff that I have not verified and just copied off Glocktalk, for the most part, but I have read other quotes about Glocks assisting the ATF with ballistic fingerprinting ******************************************** "...the [2000 Glock Annual] "Annual Message from the President". It was signed by Gaston Glock. He says in part: "Late in 1999, Glock became a test site for BATF's IBIS program. IBIS is the acronym for the Integrated Ballistics Identification System. The purpose of IBIS is to come up with a library of case head characteristics that are tied to a certain pistol and seriel number; not unlike a fingerprint." Courtesy of BATF, 1999: "The future of this technology offers even greater potential. ATF is currently conducting a pilot project with Glock, wherein they will capture digital image a test fire shell casing for handgun they manufacture. That image will be associated with the serial number of the firearm in a computer database. Later if a shell casing is recovered at a crime scene it could be compared against the Glock database. This comparison could lead to the identification of the exact weapon that fired the round." Courtesy of Jannuzzo, 2003: "We are not collecting any data that could be put into a database. The questions about ballistic fingerprinting were conceptual in nature as the technology is yet to be proven... "Nothing further is done with the shell casings. No ballistic fingerprint is taken, no data is collected and, therefore, no data is or can be stored." ******************************************* I'm not a tinfoil hat they are coming for guns type, but this crap sure sounds like the first step in a national database of pistol owners that Glock is assisting the ATF in setting up. I'm not going to sell the Glocks I have or stop carrying them, but unless I see a change in this direction from Glock, which I doubt since they are more concerned with smooching up to the LEOs, then I have bought my last Glock. I dry fired a bunch of Springfield XDs at the Shot Show. They seemed to have a better trigger than the Glocks and the 40 mags work as hi cap 9s, so if I may get one to wring it out and see if it is reliable. I love my Glock 21, but have had trouble concealing it in the summer months, so with the Glock 37 not being 45 ACP I may be looking at some other full size .45 for carry purposes. I prefer Glocks to other pistols I have used, but I can shoot a Beretta 92, 1911, Sig or even a S&W .357 just fine. |
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I love my FOUR glawcks. The only way I will ever buy another glawck is for mr. jannuzzo to be unemployed and gaston to issue a public retraction concerning his company's position. I will not sell my glawcks unless selling one will prevent someone from buying a new one. I'm kicking myself because a few weeks ago I traded my beloved Beretta to get another glawck. glawck can suck the shit out of a dead pigs ass. |
| I carry a glock because it NEVER fails to fire. And if I never need it that is the MOST important thing to me in the world. Bill Gates has stated in past interviews that he didn't care how many end user bought or stole Windows products as long as he owned the corprate world. Ford has stated that their main market goal was fleet companies. Budweiser doesn't care how many people kill someone under the influince of there product, Marlboro could care less how many people die a year form smokeing, Burger king doesn't care how many people get fat from there food. But I'm not going to stop useing windows, drinking Bud, smokeing or eating Whoppers (I love those things) and I'm sure as hell not going to stop carrying a gun I know will fire and hit what I'm pointing it at the first time, everytime. If you quit buying Glocks, that just means your oppisition will be holding the better weapon...it's sorta like bringing a knife to a gun fight...But that's just the way I feel about it. We have all these cock suckers in office dreaming this shit up, why don't we start boycoting them ??? Their the problem not, a company trying to stay in business that has to go where the sales are. Don't forget Glock went into business to supply a gov't with arms, not the common people. And on top of all of that untill I see something in writing signed by a Glock offical or on tape, I don't believe a rep for Glock would say something like that (True or Not) in public and risk a boycot. This is the internet, people invent shit all the time, just to see how far it goes. |
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I'm going to keep my Glocks that I already own. I don't plan on buying anymore handguns for a good while, so that will give time for the smoke to clear and let Glock have a chance to fully explain their statements and prove to me that they are not pro registration. Until then I will try to get and understand Glocks POV and the shooting and RKBA POV. |
Dude, You've got some major denial going there. go over to glocktalk and take a look at the video's and statements posted by mr jannuzzo himself. glock=arrogance |
| I don't think I'm in denial, actualy I think I see things for what they are, I'm not saying "Glock" didn't say that or doesn't feel that way, what I'm saying is that EVERY major corpration feels that way. SIG, S&W, Ruger, Kimber, Wilson, Heart, Browning/Winchester, Kel-Tec, you name them and they give law enforcment MAJOR discounts, exspecialy for "Arming a PD" If you think ANY of these companies care about you and what you think, You need to wake up and smell the coffee pot burning. The point was and is. Don't count on anybody but yourself , and you wont set yourself up for failure. I love my Glocks, 4 more and I'll have them all. Every time I strap one on I'm betting my life and the lives of my kids and wife on it because it NEVER fails. Just because Glock doesn't care about me, I need to bet my life and the lives of those that I love on a gun that could fail the one time I need to to protect life. Glock is not the only guns that I have, by the way. My collection is vast, 2 SIG's, 4 Rugers, 2 S&W, 1 Sigma, 2 Beretta, 2 Kel-Tec's, 1 Taurs, and a much, much longer list of Rifels and shotguns. And when it's time to protect life, I'm reaching for my Glock...Everytime. |
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Mac_At_Home, I will be supporting gun manufacturers that are not actively pursuing the registration of my firearms. This will not include glawck. I won't sell any I currently own, unless it is to take away a new sale from glawck. To each his/her own, but you have to draw a line someplace. S&W used to have a vast majority of the LE sales in this country too. Where are they now? |
| Maybe i'm being paranoid (I'm in the right place for that but while we were going through the DC area sniper thing and everyone was talking about ballistic fingerprinting i began to worry about shooting at public ranges. I mean any ass&*() could pick up brass,with plenty of calibers to choose from, and drop it at the scene of a crime. Next thing you know i'm having a friendly policeman ask for my glock because one of my shell cases turned up. I try and police up my brass better nowadays. |
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Curt raised an excellent point that I had not yet considered about some lowlife "borrowing" your spent cases to salt a crime scene with. Yet if he/she doesn't police all of their brass, you should be able to prove t'wern't your Glock doing the shooting. As to my future with Glocks, I will stick with my G23 and pass on any future purchases. When S&W sandbagged us, I sold my revolvers. Then the traitorous management got thrown out and I was stuck replacing the guns I had sold in political protest. Moral of story: keep what you have, refrain from purchasing new ones. |
| Your 100% right to each unto his own. My point is that, I'll bet money, that with in the next year EVERY gun manufacture will be printing their guns for NY and MD. Those are the ONLY places Glock is doing it for because the stats are requireing it now (Full of liberals) So I'm back to my origional point you can't hate a company for playing by the rules. I have guns that are registered and some that are not (too old or private purchase) But when I buy a new gun it's registered and I don't see a problem with that, I don't break the law. Any way what I'm getting at is we need to start getting pissed and dealing with the people making the rules you don't like, NOT the companies playing by thr rules. "Don't hate the player, HATE the game" You need to start getting these cocksuckers in office making this shit up OUT OF OFFICE and someone with a brain and common sense in office. I wonder how many people on AR15.com, that sit here and do what we are doing and are bitching about "GUN CONTROL", I wonder how many of them VOTE ? If if they do vote do they have any idea who to vote for? (IE PRO GUN) If the laws don't change your not going to ba aloud to own a gun before long, look at what there about to do to maryland, But I guess that's Glock's fault to, right? Like I said "Don't hate the player, HATE THE GAME !!!" |
| I have no cash right now. How ever I plan on buying a glock 26 and 36 in the future. In Hawaii we have to register every little thing and there are now bills going forward to even register amunition. This is nothing. If the company is arogant so be it. Lots of companys are arogant. The bottom line is they make a good product. If I see some hard info on the XD, or some other compareable product, I may change my mind. |
| First of all, YOU DO TO REGISTER FIREARMS IN GA, I lived there twice for 2 years each trip. If you buy a gun anywhere in the USA (Except for from a private citizen) the serial number on that gun is registered in your name under your SSN. This is a part of life here in the US (and has been scince like 1973). I guess you thought that the peice of paper with your Name, Address, SSN, And all the other info on it was pitched out after you walked out the door, Right? Now I may not know all the facts about what Glock has or has not done and said, and I'm real sure none of us here do. The truth is based on which web site you go to and if there Pro-Glock or not when you get there. Simple fact I believe a lot less than half when it comes to hear say and speculation and the "My buddy hear from his girlfriend's sister's math teacher's 3rd cousin" does not imply the truth in my book. Now like I said I don't know all the facts, Nor do I claim to. That wasn't my point at all. If you wern't so busy reading what I wrote over looking to bash me for what ever you can find and looked at was I was saying, you might be able to have a normal Discusion about it. I could find all kinds of reasons to bash people also, like I said I lived in GA for 4 years that in it's self would keep my busy for hrs, But I thought people wanted to talk about stuff on here. DigDug and I were stating how we felt about the subject like normal people. So please don't come on here and post at me like I'm a 5 yr old kid, it's insulting and just shows me that your just another person on the internet trying to get a rise out of someone. I may not have all the facts, but at least I know weather or not my guns are registered. |
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HEY GUYS, I THINK THAT UNLESS YOUR A CRIMINAL AND YOU ARE FORCED TO SHOOT SOMEONE IN SELF DEFENSE, YOU ARE GOING TO CALL THE LAW ANYWAY. BESIDES HERE IN NEW YORK STATE ANY NEW PISTOL THAT IS SOLD IS REQUIRED TO HAVE A SHELL CASEING TURNED IN FOR BALISTICS, AND THIS IS ALL REVOLVERS AND AUTOS. I SUGGEST THAT ALL THE GANG BANGERS OUT THERE THAT ARE WORRIED ABOUT CLIPPING SOMEONE AND NOT GETTING CAUGHT SHOULD CARRY A REVOLVER OR A KNIFE IF YOU ARE THAT WORRIED ABOUT IT. AND DON'T GET ME WRONG. IM NOT WITH GUN CONTROL BUT IF SOME ONE IN MY FAMILY WAS MURDERED BY SOME PEICE OF $H!T AND THEY CAN HAVE A CHANCE OF GETTING HIM OR HER WITH THIS TECHNOLOGY I WOULD BE THANKFUL AND SO WOULD YOU.BESIDES THEY ALREADY KNOW WHAT YOU AND I HAVE THAT IS REGISTERED. THAT IS EVERYTHING NEW OR ANYTHING THAT HAS PASSED 10 HANDS. JUST MY 2cents HARD CORE "THEY CAN RUN BUT THEY WILL ONLY DIE TIRED!" CARLOS HALFCOCK USMC |
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Mac_At_Home, Go over to glocktalk and read the posts and watch the video for yourself. Also read the posts from the former glock VP himself. glock has seriously FU on this one, and you are either trolling or love your glock so much you are willing to give up your rights. No gun manufacturer is worth it. Period. www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133977 |
| cmymud.....first of all I'm sorry for acting like a child on your fourm. To every one else, I'm sorry for wasting your time with that shit. At cmymud's request I removed the posts I made insulting what's-his-name. I am a little sensitive about being Dyslexic just like he's probley sensitive about being fat. And neither one of us should be makeing fun of the others weakness. I formaly apoligize to Larry??? (I can't look back at your name now that I'm posting) for acting like that and offer a truce.......Mac |
| Digdug, I'm downloading the clips now (as I'm on dial-up it could take a week to 10 days, But I'll get them) as soon as I get a chance to look at them, We will see if it changes my mind. I still, at this point, go back to my original point. I don't care if they have a bullet and caseing from my gun, I don't plan on breaking the law with it. And if I do kill someone, The first person I'm calling is the law. (and then a lawyer). All that aside this realy isn't that hard is your that broke up about it. Take a dentist's hook go inside and scrach the rifleings here and there and then the extractor, Balistic fingerprint changed. But let me look at the video and see if I change my tune. |
| OK, I haven't looked at the video yet, but I just got off the phone with an old army budy of mine that works for teh ATF and this is what he told me. First I was 100% WRONG about registration when you buy a new firearm. The only record they keep is the last 3 dates you bought a firearm (By dates it helps the FBI to decied weather or not you get a fast YES or a delay for futher checking) It also contains any denials you've had that's as far as it goes, Officaly (Now if you ever listen to them call it in they ask for the serial # of the gun, if they don't keep a record why do they need that?) Now that being said he told me that the balistic fingerprint is the WORST way to try to do what they are doing, but some idiot in charge thinks it's a great idea. He said that with as little as 20 rds the BF of a gun changes and it never stops changing over the life of the gun. And on top of that, the guns being built today are SO CLOSE in the BF from one to another the odds of telling one from another is hard "at birth" but as time and shooting go on, is unconcivable. This is coming from a man that was my instructor at sniper school and has worked from the ATF now for about 5 years and HATES the idea of cun control. |