Posted: 12/13/2004 6:19:01 AM EDT
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Mine seems to be weakening, and I wanted to replace it. I have 4000 round through it now and I notice the recoil seems more noticeable using the same loads I always shoot. Here are my questions: 1) Can I replace the facory Captive spring, reusing the original guide rod? I'm guessing I can "spin" them on and off. 2) 18# is stock, I wondered if a 20# would cause any malfunctions using full power ammo? My 9 year old son love pistol shooting, and wants to step up beyond the 22. He shoots light loads out of my 1911, and wants to try my 23 out. I think a 20# should tame it some, but not be too strong to affect reliability? 3) Where can I pick one up without getting raped on shipping? Thanks, Chad |
You buy the replacement as an assembly, you cannot replace the spring only on the stock guide rod. They are only about $6. I'd suggest lonewolfdist.com or glockmeister.com Do not use a heavier recoil spring on a 9mm pistol. It was specifically designed to be optimal with the stock spring. A heavier spring in the 9mm will probably cause malfunctions, especially for younger people who have a tendancy to limp-wrist more than adults while shooting. |
Oops, I was thinking it was a Glock 19, don't know how I got that. Should've read more closely. The stock weight for G17/G22 is 17#, for G19/23 it is 18#. You'd be ok with a 20# on the G23. Problem is the factory part is $6 but an aftermarket recoil rod + spring is going to be $25-50. |
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GlockMeister Part $7.00 + cheapest shiping $15.00 TopGlock Part $6.95, shipping? Can't tell w/o placing order. It just really bites my A$$ that you can't get a $7.00 part w/o paying more for shipping than the part. I'll check Kiesler's today, maybe I can pick one un on my way home.... |
Sounds to me like you'll need to order som "normal" capacity mags to help ease that shipping charge 
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www.custom-glock.com/springtech.html Effects of a Heavier spring: Recoil is transferred to the shooter over a longer duration of time due to lower slide velocities. Slower slides equal a longer recovery time for the shooter. The shooter does more work, as there is more force to counteract. This often causes and increase in muzzle flip. The chances of a limp wrist style jam are increased, as there is more force working to unlock your wrists. The chance of the slide short stroking and causing a feed jam is increased. Increased muzzle dip when the slide closes for a slower follow-up shot. |
| Yeah, I guess I'll just have to pad the order, but I was trying to keep the cost "below" radar. Usually under $30, the wife doesn't give me grief. But, in the last moth I've bought an AMD-65 kit, an OOW receiver, Molyresin, etc... So I was really trying to go cheap. Oh weel, I'll just put it on hold for now. BTW, thanks for the input on weight. I think I'll keep with the 18#, for now. |
Very nice resource, thank you for posting it! |
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chad504, Lone Wolf Dist. has the G19/G23/G32 stock Glock plastic captured recoil spring assemblies for $4.95. www.lonewolfdist.com./products.asp?prod=61&curRecIdx=1 The G17/G22/G31 ones are the same price. What's pricey are the stock Glock plastic captured recoil assemblies for the G26/G27/G33 and also the G29/G30/G36. They would run you $17.95 (they use the double recoil rod/spring system). I order from LWD all the time. If I am buying a lot of pricey parts like barrels and/or mags, I'll choose the normal UPS ground option $7.60 (you get a confirmation number and they guarantee it if it gets lost); however, if I buy some small parts like 3.5# connectors, smooth trigger bars, etc., that don't add up too much (and are very light), I choose their cheaper USPS First Class mail option (only $2.50). There are only three disadvantages to this option: 1. The total order must weigh 13oz or less for them to allow you to choose this shipping method. 2. You don't get a shipping confirmation number like you do with UPS or FedEX, since it is through USPS. 3. If something happens to the package in the mail (USPS loses it or whatever), LWD is not held responsible (they wouldn't refund you if it gets lost in the mail somewhere). Like I said if I'm buying a few small light parts that only add up to around $15-$25, I usually take this cheaper route. I have always received my USPS packages from LWD with no problem (knock on wood AZGlock13 (G17, G19, G20, G21, G23, G26) |
It's posted by a race gun sight on the internet.. it must be true.  Let's go through these one by one shall we?
What's wrong with that? Same force over a longer time means less peak force = more comfortable shooting.
By .000001 of a second, MAYBE.
The force is not determined by the spring, but by the pressure generated by the round which remians the same regardless of spring weight. In reality a heavier spring absorbs more of the recoil for you, so you don't have to. If you had a 12# spring it absorbs very little of the recoil and when the slide impacts the frame at the end of it's stroke you're getting ALL the slide's remaining force at once. This instantaneous slam causes much more muzzle flip.
The first sentence is just erroneous. The second basically says the same thing but talks more about the mechanics of the firearm itself. It is true. Too strong a spring and the slide will not cycle properly. Of course, with a weaker spring such as those used in race guns you run the risk of the slide not returning into battery fully, especially if you should have a little extra resistance such as dirt, etc. This is quite dangerous for obvious reasons. Frame batterying IS an issue with weaker springs as well.
Can't answer this one fully. It can go both ways. Heavier spring = more force pushing the slide forward which can lead to increased muzzle dip. Of course if the slide is moving so fast as to rebound off the frame, it could be moving forward much quicker, carrying more force than with a heavy spring. I'd suggest reading both pages of this thread, it starts off slow and annoyingly anecdotal but trust me it's worth it by the time you get to the end. www.fatkatsartistry.com/glock/spring1.htm www.fatkatsartistry.com/glock/spring2.htm Hoss from the website at the link you listed weighs in, as does MarkCo an engineer and competitor as well. Topglock representatives also make an appearance. This debate is as old as dirt.. well as old as Glocks atleast and I don't really see an end to it. Best suggestion is to either stick with stock, or get a weaker spring and a heavier spring and try them out for yourself. I've tried both and I can say a heavier spring is definetly softer and more controllable. Competition shooters don't care so much about recoil, they are VERY GOOD at controlling it. They just want that slide back in battery as soon as possible to decrease their split times. Every .000001 second counts. The original G17's optimal spring weight (17#) was calculated using slide mass, distance traveled and using a static figure for recoil energy (9mm average recoil energy) by Glock. The goal was optimal reliability and minimal stresses on the frame. When they came out with .40S&W and .45ACP versions, recoil energy is now a VARIABLE, but they stuck with the same weight and skipped the calculations. This saves a lot of cost in both engineering and also production as you don't have to produce numerous spring weights. It also makes it less confusing for Armorer's etc. It only takes some intermediate engineering skill (and the right software) to model this pistol and it's recoil when less or more recoil energy is applied. It becomes blatantly clear that to keep slide speed, force, etc. during recoil on a G22 (.40S&W) most inline & similar to that of the G17 (9mm) a spring of approximately 20# is the appropriate choice. Believe it or not, I don't care. |
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The spring weight used in the G17 (17lbs) gives optimal reliability for the force generated and should not be changed. The spring weight used in the G19 (18lbs) gives optimal reliability for the force generated and should not be changed. Ideally all Glock pistols slide speed & force properties should mirror that of the G17 and G19 as closely as possible. The .40S&W generates more recoil and more force. But the spring weights remain the same due to cost, confusion it would generate, etc. The spring weight calculated for the 9mm used in these pistols is not optimal. A G22 requires a 20.4-21lb spring to mirror the G17 as closely as possible. A G23 requires a 21.7-22.3lb spring to mirror the G19 as closely as possible. I would not recommend a 22# spring for the G23 even though it is considered optimal; due to manufacturing variances and variances in the way different manufacturers measure spring weight. |
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Good Morning...........Physics 101. For every action there is an equal and opposite REACTION. Laymens terms................If the loads are equal, a heavier spring is going to slow the slide down and that energy has to go somewhere. That somewhere is to your hands, wrists, arms, shoulders yada, yada, yada. If that energy is going through your body, you would be doing MORE work to counter it. 
By the way there is a difference between a stovepipe jam and a feed jam believe it or not.
There are plenty who shoot "THOUSAND UPON THOUSANDS" on both sides of the debate.
Almost 17 years, what does that have to do with anything? I know many people who have been shooting for "40 years" but have quite a few less rounds down the barrel than I. Nor does pure shooting translate into a good understanding of physics or engineering.
Recoil energy is the same for the same load +/- small variations shot-to-shot. Felt recoil differs.
You're right, this is not apples to apples and you are oversimplifying something that you obviously haven't modeled. Put simply the .357SIG round doesn't have enough time to climb since the higher slide velocity? Huh?
Oh geez, where to start here. You're telling me that the SAME round has the potential to generate the same ft-lbs of force for 5 seconds that it does for 1 second? Amazing, someone call NASA they can use this amazing new technology to make better fuels and more powerful rockets. A better comparison would be 5lbs for 5 seconds or 25lbs all at once? Felt recoil is SHORTER in time, but peak felt-recoil is higher. Because it is for such a short time, it is manageable and to some even feels like less. I see later in the post you cite Issac Newton's laws.. maybe you should learn the 2nd one... Force = Mass x Acceleration.
I am going to assume you meant "sum". It's a similar comparion to using an autoloading .308 vs. a bolt action. The problem is you are not looking at it from both ways. If you had an autoloading firearm with a spring so stiff that it's basically not a spring but a stiff peice of metal you would feel the entire force of the recoil generated by the round all at once, immediately. Just like a bolt action. If you had an autoloading firearm with a 0# spring you would still get all of the recoil transfered directly into you, it would just be delayed until the action reached completely rearward and had nowhere further to go. If you had an autoloading firearm with a spring somewhere in the middle that allows the action to cycle, what you are doing is taking that recoil and spreading it out over a period of time. Get it?
I'm quite familiar with Issac Newton's 3rd law, thanks. The recoil ALWAYS goes somewhere. You have a finite length of rod to work with here. It's a matter of recoil over time. Lower spring weight = higher peak recoil over a shorter time. Higher spring weight = Lower peak recoil over a longer period of time. Get it?
The physics are fine. It's the perceptions. Some perceive the higher peak felt-recoil over a longer period of time to be less recoil. Others get thrown off by higher peak recoil but absorb a consistant low recoil easily.
I'm not going to talk about any situations with the NYPD. But your statement is overall true. Of course with a lower weight the peak forces on the Glock's frame are higher and if the Glock is not made to take those higher peak forces it will batter the frame. Why do you think Glock reinforced it's frames just infront of the locking block? It just goes to show how strong the Glock's are to be able to stand up to much higher recoil forces against the frame due to low-weight recoil springs. It takes more rounds than 95% of people shoot through them to finally see any damage. Besides, I never said to use "TOO heavy of a recoil spring". I said the rounds that generate more recoil are optimal (according to Glock's own standards) with a somewhat heavier recoil spring.
You don't say? Gee, I never knew that!
First, good recommendation. Second, I don't think you are FOS, like I said people's PERCEPTIONS will differ. I am just saying there are two sides to the story and Hoss and his race gun website don't give a full picture and allow people to decide for themselves. So I gave the other side.
I'm glad you have good friends, that's important. My question to you is why take ONLY their advice? Why not engineers who model the pistol and recoil, do the math and then test their models? How do you think the Glock 17 was designed? Why not talk to other people who've shot as much or more than they have, but with goals other than the best time in a competition? You're talking about the top .0001% of competitive shooters, that .00001 second means something to them and they can adapt to whatever recoil they need to. Quick+hard or Long+Soft recoil doesn't matter to them, they will adapt to whatever will get the bullet in the chamber faster. That just happens to be a lower weight recoil spring.
I never said they weren't.
Yep, and in the process they used the same recoil spring. Quicker, less complicated, less expensive, no engineering involved. |
I'm glad you have good friends, that's important. My question to you is why take ONLY their advice? Why not engineers who model the pistol and recoil, do the math and then test their models? How do you think the Glock 17 was designed? Why not talk to other people who've shot as much or more than they have, but with goals other than the best time in a competition? You're talking about the top .0001% of competitive shooters, that .00001 second means something to them and they can adapt to whatever recoil they need to. Quick+hard or Long+Soft recoil doesn't matter to them, they will adapt to whatever will get the bullet in the chamber faster. That just happens to be a lower weight recoil spring. Ummmm......I don't know if you're aware of it but Mr. Langdon worked for BerettaUSA and so did Mr. Green. Mr. Green now workes for SIGARMS. Mr. Langdon owns his own company, offering training, Beretta customization etc. Both are factory certified armorers from both SIGARMS and BerettaUSA and yet both say stay stock, Hmmm.........guess you should edumicate them. Yeah someone with Ernest Langdons experience is useless against the guns engineers. BTW Ernest designed the Custom Carry, Custom Carry II, Elite and Elite II Berettas and the EL SIG 220. So technically he is an engineer.  Oh and he designed the 18lb hammer spring now used in all SIG DAO pistols, yeah he's wrong. He's the only person to ever win the IDPA Custom Defense Pistol class at the Nat'ls using a SIG 220ST (double action) besting Rob Leatham who was shooting a 1911. [sarcastic]Yeah his input isn't good[/sarcastic] even though his experience is quite vast: Competition Titles * 2003 IDPA Custom Defensive Pistol Champion * 1998 & 2000 IDPA National Stock Service Champion * 2000 USPSA Limited Nationals Production Class Champion * Three-time IDPA Winter Nationals Stock Service Champion * Two-time World Speed Shooting Champion, IDPA Stock Service Class * More than twenty additional National, Regional, and State shooting titles Professional Activities * Chief Instructor, U.S. Marine Corps Scout Sniper School * Head Instructor, U.S. Marine Corps High Risk Personnel Course * Law Enforcement Operations Supervisor and Technical Advisor, Beretta USA * National Sales Manager, Triton Ammunition * President, Langdon Tactical Technology Certifications * Beretta Factory Armorer School * NRA Law Enforcement Instructor (pistol, shotgun, subgun) * FBI Firearms Instructor Course * Rogers Tactical Shooting School (advanced handgun rating) * Various certifications from Gunsite, Chapman Academy, DTI (John Farnam), M.I.S.S. (John Shaw), Jerry Barnhart * USMC Scout Sniper and Scout Sniper Instructor Schools * USMC Small Arms Weapons Instructor School * USMC Advanced Close Quarters Battle Team School * US Army Ranger School * US Army Anti-Terrorism Instructor School * US Army Airborne & Military Free Fall Parachutist School * US Navy SCUBA School |
That's not at all what I said. I don't know where you got that from. What I am saying is at either extreme you're going to get ALL the recoil at ONCE. It's just delayed ever so slightly in the 2nd case. Obviously you're not going to get to either extreme because neither will cycle the firearm. One won't allow it to unlock/ extract/eject, the other won't feed and return to battery. And your analysis of the controllability of full-auto cyclic rates is errorneous as well. And I don't care who worked where or what each person said. For every qualified person you can find to give an opinion, I can find one to give a counter-opinion. I never said anyone's input isn't valid, I said there is more than one opinion on the subject all from perfectly qualified people. Just because someone is SWAT, military, a network engineer, an structural engineer, a metalurgical engineer, a circus clown, or whatever doesn't mean they are right 100% of the time. Nor is one way going to be the right way for everyone. And no I'm not referencing anyone specific with the job titles so don't try to twist it to make it sound like I am. I have the utmost respect for many people and their experiences in many professions. My best suggestion to those unsure is to leave it stock or try it all and see what works best for you. gotm4 has what works for him and that's great, that's all that matters. I have what works for me, and that's all that matters. Anyway, as you can see I'm kind of hurring through this. I'm just not really interested in responding any further. This is boring the crap out of me. I thought I was interested but I've realized what a waste of time it is. I'm sure your time is much more valuable to you too than to sit here and argue endlessly with me. No hard feelings here, if we ever meet I'll buy you a beer and we can slap each other around a bit.  Off to relax... |
I for one am glad you two settled that peacefully! I thought it was going to turn into another Colt vs Bushmaster/LMT Sucks/Glock is better than 1911 battle. I like to see the glocksters act like mature adults...wait...then I wouldn't be allowed in here. Nevermind. 
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