Posted: 12/6/2006 1:58:49 PM EDT
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I am always in the search for a small back-up gun. I am a police officer and I need a small gun that I can carry in my vest and also carry off-duty. I usually just carry my Glock 23 (duty gun) off duty but I would like something smaller. I have owned a 27 but I didn't really see much difference in carrying the two. Right now I carry a S&W Mod 60 with a bobbed hammer as a back up. Over the last 20 years I have carried for back up: Colt Detective Special .38 S&W Mod 60 .38 AMT .380 Firestar .40 NAA .22 mini revolver Taurus Mod 85 .38 Taurus Mod 22 .22lr They all had their advantages and disadvantages. I really want something thin, lightweight, and a caliber .380 or larger. Price is not really an issue but I would like to keep it reasonable. I really like the small Kahr pistols but not enough to spend over $600. Something around $400 or less would be desirable. I like the Kel-Tec .380 but I owned a Kel-Tec .40 before and it was the biggest piece of crap I ever owned. I actually gave it away. I am kind of leery towards Kel-Tec. I see Bersa makes a PPK copy but I don't know anything about them. I don't want another lemon. I like the Walther PPK but it's very heavy for it's size and expensive. Any suggestions? |
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I was going to suggest the Kel-Tek P3At but as far as I know they are not completely reliable. That may have changed since I looked into them though. I wound up buyting the P32. The main reason is that its reliable and the ballistic differences are not huge between the 380 and 32. Granted the 32 is by no means a man stopper , I will grant that But I consider it only in terms of a BUG nothing else. Loaded with FMJ its been 100% reliable and be able to penetrate deeply enough (hopefully) The other thing as you know is carrying a heavy BUG is no fun , the P32 is supper light and can go in your vest , belt pouch , ankle, even in your pocket. stay safe |
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I've been carrying a S&W 640 for a while now off duty. I believe that I'll soon be picking up a 340PD. The 640 is great, but when you put it in a pocket it really weighs down that side of your jacket or pants. I'm sure that someone will soon be along to say get the 38 in stead of a magnum. Well, that's all fine and well, but I want the magnum.  I've heard a lot of horror stories about shooting the 340 with magnums. I shoot one with the 125's and you certainly know you touched a round off. It's not something I'd want to shoot all day, but I sure wouldn't mind having it if I need it. They seem to be very accurate too!
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I use a P32 as a BUG and it is 100% reliable. With the second generation P3AT (380) it is reliable and is @ the same size as my P32. My friend has one and no problems what so ever. My father-in-law liked mine so much that he will be picking up a P3AT for a carry gun.
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Don’t know what they’re going for nowadays nor the wait involved, but a Seecamp .380 would be prefect for a backup. seecamp.com/ Still, I’d think you’d want something more substantial for off-duty. While a bit thick because of the cylinder, the S&W titanium 5-shot revolvers would also be a good backup, and not a bad off-duty handgun either – though still a little light in my view. Personally, I’ve always felt a back-up handgun and an off-duty handgun involve dissimilar needs and ideally shouldn’t be the same handgun. |
Seecamps are great if you only want to shoot winchester silvertips out of them. In there paperwork you get with it list two brands of ammo it will feed. That's great. Ever look at the price of silver tips. That's not a cheap date for the range.  J |
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Over $600 for a Kahr??? You need to shop around. One of my guns is a Colt pocket 9. A Kahr is very similar in size and shape. If you like the Kahr, start looking around. They pop up on the EE every now and then. A simple letterhead also allows any FFL to ship the gun direct to your dept. |
A. I've seen a lot of people gripe about Silvertip prices. Compared to other .32 self defense ammo, Silvertips at $30 for 50 are actually a bargain. Gold Dots and HydrsShoks are $15 for a box of 20. That comes out to $37 for 50 rounds. Simple math.B. A modern Seecamp will shoot a variety of ammo. I just picked up a .32 and of 6 types of fmj and jhp ammo I took to the range, only one wouldn't feed in the gun. Because the gun is designed for ultimate reliablity with hollow points, you have to remove a spacer from the mag to shoot longer bullets, but it works. C. Fiocchi hollow points are a hot load, work in my Seecamp, and available for $12/50. I've owned KelTecs and most can be made into reliable guns. The Seecamp is simply a much higher quality weapon. That said, the officer said he prefers .380 or bigger. The Seecamp .380 is currently going for roughly $800.  That's a little rich for my blood. I had a very reliable Kahr PM9, but it started to get some odd wear around the barrel hood, and there has been a bad rash of barrel peening. Got rid of it. (It's seems as if the Kahr guns have become as much of a crap shoot as KelTec.) The S&W 642 is one of the best options for the money. If you want to save your pennies for a while, the Scandium .357 would make an awesome backup. (Weighs the same as my Seecamp .32.  )If you keep your eyes open, you could possibly save some $ on a used one. I've seen several people buy one, shoot less than a box of ammo, and then decide that the recoil is too much. |
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My brother has a Colt .380 Gov't Model (not the Mustang) that I think is about ideal - hard to find though, and impossible to find at a reasonable price. I like the little Llama .380s, used to be called the IIIA, think it's called the Micromax now. Dad had one for years that he carried as a backup piece, and I've got one that I'm fixing up if I can ever find the parts (the older IIIA parts ARE a PITA to find). |
Smith used to make a few .44 Spl snubbies. I always wanted one...  Go with whatever fits you best. Accuracy defeats caliber, but it is good to have a common caliber with your primary, if you can. The Keltec 9mms are supposed to be pretty impressive, if that is the route you want to go. I heard that after a break-in period, the triggers are fine. F |
The 696 - another great, out of production, hard to find, and overpriced carry piece! I want one too!  An alternative to that one is the Charter Arms Bulldog, but reviews on them are VERY mixed.
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I just did a search on Guns America. No 696s, but they did have a really nice 624 ! check out: http://www.gunsamerica.com/search.cgi?lowprice=0&highprice=99999999&age=0&uid=&words=.44+Spl&category=2440&state=All It is a bit more than I had in mind..  but that's what I want!F |
| I carry a .45 P220 as my side arm. I have a SIG P239 9mm wedge between the seat and consol where the lights and siren switches are. It can be great to have a car gun if someone decides they want to get out of the car. That car window doesnt mean jack shit to me i'll shoot through it if i have too. I also carry the keltek in the rear pocket opposite side from where my main sidearm is. |
+1 on the P239. I don't really like mine, but that's just due to two "bad choices" I made; Getting it in .40 (I just don't like the flip) and getting the DAK trigger. Regular 9mm DA/SA P239s are great, I shoot them all the time. |
First off, WELCOME to the site!
You just described the Kel-Tec P3AT. 
Apples and oranges... and the little KTs are peaches, in my experience.
You can get a lemon in any make/model, but the Bersas are great little pistols for the money and enjoy quite a good reputation and following. However...
... while the Bersas are much less expensive, they are as big and heavy as the Walthers (not big by duty-gun standards, but big by "dress-pants pocket-gun" standards  ).
Yes, the Kel-Tec P3AT... haven't you been listening?  Seriously, I've been carrying a dedicated all-day/every-day pocket-gun for 20+ years now. I switched to the P32 almost as soon as it came out, and switched from it to a P3AT (I now have a couple of them) when they came out. With a little TLC they can be excellent little pistols, especially for the cost; nothing comes close to them in terms of balancing power with an extremely thin & light package; and the company has great customer service (although I've never had to return a firearm to them yet, and I own several of their products). FWIW, my best friend (a local PD Detective) carried a P32 (bought when I bought mine) as his "vest gun" back when he was on patrol and now carries it in his pocket as a BUG. He has had the same good service out of it that I have out of mine. Hope some or all of this helps!
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| Thought I would share my experiences with the P3AT, I had one of the first gen models and while it worked most of the time, it was never quite 100%. I bought one of the second gen models shortly after they came out and it is an entirely different gun. Very Reliable, I have lost count of the number of rounds that have been through mine and it has only had one FTE, that was when it was new and not broken in yet. It is so thin it just disappears in jean pockets. Highly recomend it! And the price can not be beat either. |
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I've work UC for five years now and have had no trouble hiding the Kahr P9 and PM9. Both are 100% reliable for me and handle +P ammo fine. I love my Scandium Smiths but the 9mm +P offers more power and quicker reload times if its going to be the only thing you have with you. I've also had good luck with my KelTec 3AT. Stay Safe....... |