[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Safety Issues with CC (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/22/2013 2:08:39 PM EDT
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I just got my permit and started carrying (everywhere but at work)
I normally try to be religious with gun safety and my concealed holster makes me a little nervous... When I am standing it is fine. The muzzle is pointed down and would miss my leg if it went off, but when I sit down it is pointed right at my let (I believe right next to the artery). I have adjusted it, but I noticed it was pointed at other people. Is there a technique to always keep your muzzle pointed at the floor? My holster is an inside the belt type. Also, I have been keeping a round chambered until I was not comfortable with my lack of muzzle control. Now I just have the mag in, but the chamber is empty. I'm sure the answer is whatever I am comfortable with, but am I over thinking this? My gun has a safety (that is on) and my hammer is half-cocked. The holster does a pretty good job at keeping things off the controls. |
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Sounds like you're over thinking things. I used to be just like you. Never chambering a round etc etc.... Get past it. If you have a good holster and gun belt, they will do their job. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still check the safety now and then. Remember, the bad guy is not going to stop when you say time out, I need to chamber a round.
Edit: Just put my ccw rig on. What gun and holster do you have? My FS M&P 40 in my IWB holster points straight down when I'm sitting and might clip a small piece of skin if it were to go off. If yours is pointing at others etc, is the holster the proper one for the gun? Mine literally has no movement once holstered. |
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Sounds like you're over thinking things. I used to be just like you. Never chambering a round etc etc.... Get past it. If you have a good holster and gun belt, they will do their job. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still check the safety now and then. Remember, the bad guy is not going to stop when you say time out, I need to chamber a round. Edit: Just put my ccw rig on. What gun and holster do you have? My FS M&P 40 in my IWB holster points straight down when I'm sitting and might clip a small piece of skin if it were to go off. If yours is pointing at others etc, is the holster the proper one for the gun? Mine literally has no movement once holstered. I'm GTG with a Crossbreed Supertuck. I also have a very VERY stiff CCW belt. Is your belt a dedicated CCW belt? If not the gun will sag and not be properly supported. |
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Sounds like you're over thinking things. I used to be just like you. Never chambering a round etc etc.... Get past it. If you have a good holster and gun belt, they will do their job. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still check the safety now and then. Remember, the bad guy is not going to stop when you say time out, I need to chamber a round. Edit: Just put my ccw rig on. What gun and holster do you have? My FS M&P 40 in my IWB holster points straight down when I'm sitting and might clip a small piece of skin if it were to go off. If yours is pointing at others etc, is the holster the proper one for the gun? Mine literally has no movement once holstered. I have an EAA K2P 9mm (slightly smaller than a full-frame gun). My holster is just a universal uncle mike's inside the belt holster. It points down my leg when I stand, but when I sit the holster follows my leg and points the direction my leg points (can be pointed at others if they are sitting across from me) |
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A really good thing to do when you first start carrying is to put yourself on probation. Carry with an empty chamber and be very diligent about safety. Act like the gun has a round in the chamber. Do this for a few weeks and look for holes in your carry routines.
Be absolutely sure your holster will keep the trigger safely covered. Develop habits for weapon administration, stick to them, and again look for holes in your techniques. Think about it, if you plan to carry daily, there are tons of chances for an accident. The habits you form right now are the habits that will either lead you to an accident, or keep you safe for years. It always happens when you are tired, stressed out, rushing, etc. Good habits get you through all that. |
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I don't know too much about Uncle Mikes Holster. I wound how low your pants are. A good belt and holster are the minimum requirements for carrying.
When I sit down, my gun is fairly straight down. I would never carry with an empty chamber. Glock, 1911, XDM it doesn't matter. All in a Crossbreed Super Tuck. I also understand about getting used to the whole carry thing. It was a little unnerving years ago. You'll get past it. |
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1. Get a better holster.
2. Get a good belt 3. Carry everyday all day. You are worrying to much, which can bea plus and a negative when first starting to carry. A gun in a good holster is no differant than a knife in a good holster. A knife wont cut until it is out of the holster. A gun wont fire until it out of the holster. Just be safe with your routines, and dont worry about it while it is holstered. But you do need to invest in an appropriate holster and a good belt. Its money well spent. CCW is all about the system. It may take awhile for you to get a system you are comfortable in, but doing research here will lead you to the better holster options, carry methods, and belt options, and hopefully save you some headaches and money, but what works for someone doesnt work for everyone. I personally AIWB carry. It is becoming more common, but it is still not a method used as often as other methods. |
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Sounds like you're over thinking things. I used to be just like you. Never chambering a round etc etc.... Get past it. If you have a good holster and gun belt, they will do their job. I'm not as bad as I used to be, but I still check the safety now and then. Remember, the bad guy is not going to stop when you say time out, I need to chamber a round. Edit: Just put my ccw rig on. What gun and holster do you have? My FS M&P 40 in my IWB holster points straight down when I'm sitting and might clip a small piece of skin if it were to go off. If yours is pointing at others etc, is the holster the proper one for the gun? Mine literally has no movement once holstered. I have an EAA K2P 9mm (slightly smaller than a full-frame gun). My holster is just a universal uncle mike's inside the belt holster. It points down my leg when I stand, but when I sit the holster follows my leg and points the direction my leg points (can be pointed at others if they are sitting across from me) Drop the universal holster and get a holster specifically for your gun. I use a Crossbreed Supertuck, as others have mentioned. Get a gun belt. Those 2 items will make a world of difference. |
| With a good holster that covers your trigger I wouldn't worry about it. It looks like your gun can be carried with a round in the chamber with the hammer down for a first shot double action. I'd do as suggested earlier, get a high quality holster, maybe try carrying it unchambered with your hammer back for awhile and see if it ever drops, though I don't advocate carrying without a round in the chamber as a standard practice. Treat this as a probationary period as someone else said as if you aren't even carrying. FWIW, I carry a 1911 in condition 1 frequently, so there are 2 safeties plus the one between my ears, in addition to a good hybrid holster that covers my trigger. Alternately I carry an XDm that has a trigger safety and a grip safety, same kind of holster. Where my barrel points when I carry doesn't cross my mind at all, as long as they're holstered correctly I'm not at all concerned about them going off because I know my guns are properly maintained. |
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All good advice thanks! I disagree with the post that I am not ready. I view this as a big responsibility. There are plenty of people who do it safely and I do not think asking questions about it means I am not ready.
I will look at getting a holster made and I will at least carry without a round chambered for a few weeks to make sure there are no holes in my routine. |
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Just carry a while. You'll get over it. A modern firearm is more resilient than you first think. Which is good, if you weren't thinking like that you are setting yourself up for accidents. The rules of firearm handling are meant to be layers that prevent the break down of one layer from causing an accident, because the others are there. DO inspect your holster by emptying the gun and making sure you know that it won't catch the trigger while fully holstered or inserting. It's OK to carry for a while without one in the chamber until you get used to it. Safety is 90% mentality and it takes a while to get all the "software" installed.
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All good advice thanks! I disagree with the post that I am not ready. I view this as a big responsibility. There are plenty of people who do it safely and I do not think asking questions about it means I am not ready. I will look at getting a holster made and I will at least carry without a round chambered for a few weeks to make sure there are no holes in my routine. No actually it does. What training have you had? Get some. These are basic things that would be covered in a good gun training class. |
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Any modern handgun in a proper holster cannot discharge by itself. I carry an M&P 40 sometimes in a sh** IWB Uncle Mikes holster and my barrel is always pointed at the ground. I have never EVER worried about the trigger being hit or the firearm discharging unintentionally.  Am I the nieve one here??
I carry at 3:30-4:00. My biggest worry is that my shirt or jacket is going to get in the way if i ever have to draw. I dont even consider the case of an accidental discharge an option. ETA: The only reason I have an UM holster is because im still trying to find what holster I like the most for the M&P (this can be a LONG process for you). I normally carry my G19 in a custom made kydex. If it worries you, don't carry; you're not ready.
true statement...if you are still running around scared because you think your gun might shoot you, you probably shouldnt be carrying. |
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Check out real holsters and what people carry.
Say no to uncle mikes. |
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If it worries you, don't carry; you're not ready. This. Give the guy some slack. We should be encouraging him, not shunning him. Hell, it took me about 6 months to be comfortable with carrying my CCW with a round in the chamber and that was with a M&P 22. Now, I'm more confident, dropped the 22 and moved to a 40. No issues carrying a chambered round and much more confident about my weapon. Not everyone has the same learning curve. At least he posted here asking for advice, instead of not asking at all and not getting the proper advice. |
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If it worries you, don't carry; you're not ready. This. Give the guy some slack. We should be encouraging him, not shunning him. Hell, it took me about 6 months to be comfortable with carrying my CCW with a round in the chamber and that was with a M&P 22. Now, I'm more confident, dropped the 22 and moved to a 40. No issues carrying a chambered round and much more confident about my weapon. Not everyone has the same learning curve. At least he posted here asking for advice, instead of not asking at all and not getting the proper advice. True. I personally appreciate all the advise I've gotten from this site over the past several months. I read post after post after post and trained and trained at home before I felt I had the knowledge and skill to carry though and I would recommend others do the same. As soon as you feel comfortable, train some more, read some more, ask more questions. Then you'll be ready to go. |
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Any modern handgun in a proper holster cannot discharge by itself. I carry an M&P 40 sometimes in a sh** IWB Uncle Mikes holster and my barrel is always pointed at the ground. I have never EVER worried about the trigger being hit or the firearm discharging unintentionally. Am I the nieve one here??
I carry at 3:30-4:00. My biggest worry is that my shirt or jacket is going to get in the way if i ever have to draw. I dont even consider the case of an accidental discharge an option. ETA: The only reason I have an UM holster is because im still trying to find what holster I like the most for the M&P (this can be a LONG process for you). I normally carry my G19 in a custom made kydex. If it worries you, don't carry; you're not ready.
true statement...if you are still running around scared because you think your gun might shoot you, you probably shouldnt be carrying. The problem with uncle mikes style holster is the retention sucks, and they are flimsy, lending themselves to getting snagged in the trigger guard and possibly causeing a discharge. Yu need a stiff holster, with good retention, made specificly for your gun. I personally will never own anything besides kydex again, but there are good leather holsters out there as well if thats your style, just keep in mind that leather can and will wear over time and become more flimsy. Kydex requires almost 0 maintenance(other than rinsing debris out every no and again) and will last indefinately. |
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First off, good on ya for getting into habit to carry. It is a big step, and getting it right for you is very important. You need to be comfortable and confident in your stuff is vital. And when you think you have it right for you, practice and make sure it is right.
As said above, good gun belt and holster made for that gun is crucial. They will have the needed retention and hold the gun in place, and hold them in an angle that is safe and secure. I use a CompTac CTAC for my Glock, and its comfortable, secure, and safe. It does cover the trigger guard completely, so no chance of a ND while holstered.(none at all when following all the rules). Take the time to look thru the "Empty your Pockets" thread and see what holsters and gear people are using and research it for yourself. There is a reason the Uncle Mikes holster is $15, and good holsters are $60+. One thing, carry chambered. Like said, criminal wont wait for you to chamber, or cock your hammer. Have your weapon ready to fire (or Condition 1 depending on your weapon). I know its trying at first, but do it. I went thru it, it was when I was breaking in the holster for that gun, and wearing it around the house. When I was ready, I was loaded and ready, and chambered. |
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If it worries you, don't carry; you're not ready. This. Give the guy some slack. We should be encouraging him, not shunning him. Hell, it took me about 6 months to be comfortable with carrying my CCW with a round in the chamber and that was with a M&P 22. Now, I'm more confident, dropped the 22 and moved to a 40. No issues carrying a chambered round and much more confident about my weapon. Not everyone has the same learning curve. At least he posted here asking for advice, instead of not asking at all and not getting the proper advice. I didn’t mean for it to sound harsh, I was trying to keep it brief since I was typing on my tablet (huge PITA). Also, I missed the part about the holster being an Uncle Mikes. OP; they’re junk. Invest in some proper gear as has been advised previously. That said, even with the UM holster, guns don’t just go off. Cartridges do not spontaneously combust. The trigger must be manipulated in order for the gun to fire, so if you successfully got the gun into the holster you’re good to go. If you’re nervous about it, and it being impossible, then something is very wrong. As to the comments about the importance of carry with a round in the chamber, I concur- but for different reasons. It’s not so much about time (the time it takes to draw and chamber a round) but about employment. It takes two hands to chamber a round reliably. You cannot be sure you will have two hands available when the bad stuff goes down. You may be carrying something (shopping bag, cell phone, doughnut) or your significant other may latch onto your arm in panic. There’s also a lot that can go wrong during the chambering of a live round, so it’s best done while you’re calm and not during the heat of the moment when your adrenalin is pumping. This is how I learned- the Air Force handed me a .38 snubbie and told me to load it and wear it concealed. Later they handed me an M9 and told me to load it and wear it concealed with a round in the chamber and the safety OFF. Then I carried it that way on long overseas flights. That’s pretty much it. They taught us the function of the pistol so I understood what it would take (a relatively heavy double-action trigger pull) to make the gun fire. As long as I didn’t do that, what is there to worry about? Being a little nervous is a good thing- it shows you have a healthy respect for the weapon. Being overly nervous indicates that you do not understand how the machinery functions, in other words, what actions must take place to allow the firing pin to punch the primer. Which is to say, you think the gun will just suddenly go off on its own. If that’s the case then I stand by my suggestion that you not carry until you do understand it. |
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If it worries you, don't carry; you're not ready. This. Give the guy some slack. We should be encouraging him, not shunning him. Hell, it took me about 6 months to be comfortable with carrying my CCW with a round in the chamber and that was with a M&P 22. Now, I'm more confident, dropped the 22 and moved to a 40. No issues carrying a chambered round and much more confident about my weapon. Not everyone has the same learning curve. At least he posted here asking for advice, instead of not asking at all and not getting the proper advice. + another one. use a good holster, a belt that keeps the gun in the same spot without sagging, and carry the gun 24/7/365. One of the things you will develop is a keen sense of situational awareness as well as the realization that the trigger doesn't get tripped while in the holster. No different than crossing a 4-way... the cars being pointed at you aren't majically taking control and ramming you when their driver's foot is on the brake. You will need to eventually keep a round in the chamber and then top off the magazine, but until then carry with the mag full. It's better to have that in a shooting situation than not have the gun at all. |
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Most of us probably had initial reservations with having a live round in the chamber. I carried condition 3 for a while as well. I even got an XD because I liked the idea of the additional grip safety. Still made me nervous because there is a tensioned spring resting behind the firing pin. So I got a revolver and it solved those concerns. Plus carrying condition 3 with the XD and noticing the gun always remaining cocked gave me confidence the gun isn't going to randomly cook off a round.
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A few thoughts:
1) I think the OP has a valid concern - it is an issue of personal responsibility and I'd much rather have someone asking questions than staying silent out of fear of ridicule and then have an AD due to lack of knowledge because he was afraid to ask or because the hive said "you should have learned it in class". AD's in public are bad news and reflect badly on the entire community. 2) A properly designed holster is one of your primary safety mechanisms. It, along with a properly designed belt, will protect the trigger, hold the weapon securely, facilitate proper muzzle control, help ensure retention and security of the weapon, allow an efficient and consistent draw with proper hand placement, and it will also allow the shooter to easily return the weapon to the holster. An Uncle Mikes IWB holster is questionable in terms of security, muzzle control and protection of the trigger, but it's a total failure in terms of trying to put the weapon back in the holster after you've shot it without removing the holster and starting from scratch. Generally friends don't let friends use an Uncle Mikes IWB holster, so don't take it personally, just take it as very well intentioned constructive criticism. Below are three weapons and holsters I've used for concealed carry and liked. Two are Wild Bill's Concealment Covert Carry holsters and the other is an IWB holster by Backwoods Leather. All three hold the weapon securely, protect the trigger and stay open to allow easy return of the pistol to the holster. 3) What is not immediately obvious is that all three are in condition one - cocked and locked with a round in the chamber. All three use the Browning SFS system where the hammer is pressed forward against a hammer block to safe the weapon while leaving the weapon fully cocked. When the safety is lowered to the fire position, the hammer clicks back into the full cocked position. The advantages for concealed carry are a) the hammer is not exposed and you don't risk shearing or jumping the sear and half cock notches if the weapon is dropped, b) the hammer won't snag on anything during the draw or when returned to the holster, c) it's very easy to confirm the weapon is on safe with just a light touch when in the holster and under a shirt and/or coat, d) if it's not on safe, it is easily placed on safe by just pressing the hammer forward, and e) it does not look cocked and locked as the hammer appears to be down, so it does not panic the significant other or anyone else who may see the weapon. And that also applies to the pistol if you are in open carry. For the non SFS Browning Hi Powers, one of the major complaints is that the safety engagement is a bit soft and mushy feeling. You can get the pistol worked on to stiffen it up a bit, but the Browning SFS kit can be added to any Hi Power and also provides a very positive safety engagement and disengagement. 4) In that regard, what you carry and what you carry it in can go a long way toward increasing your comfort level with carrying in condition one. 
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You've picked a really bad analogy. I would worry about the direction my rifles were pointed if they were loaded in the case - which they are not as a matter of general principle.
the gun will not go off by itself in a holster, if nothing can pull the trigger while it is in there, that gun will never go off do you worry about what direction your rifles are pointed in when they are in a case? |
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OP- How is it pointed at your leg sitting down? You don't have it stuffed down the front of your pants do you? Carry at 4 to 4:30 and you won't have a problem. Just picture where a duty holster would sit, and move it back a bit. Maybe this is part of the issue. It is at 2:30. Ill try it at 3:30 or 4. Also I'll try to find someone who does kydex work locally. I've been shooting for 20 years. I know guns don't just go off, but I treat them like they can. I am new to cc though. One freak accident when I carry 24/7 would be bad with what I currently have. I think a different carry position and a better holster will keep my gun pointed down. I will be much more comfortable then. Even IF a freak accident happened and it went off then it will be in a safe direction. That redundancy is what I am after. I never have worried with my external holsters because they work well and keep the muzzle down. By the way. I think the title of this thread is striking a nerve. I did not mean to imply I think cc is unsafe. I just figured I must be doing something wrong because I did not feel like I was carrying correctly. Thanks for all the help though. |
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I'm in Kabul, Afghanistan right now and we've had a few negligent discharges on my base. NDs come from people who are not focused on the fundamentals and/or are not comfortable with the manual of arms for their particular weapon. The majority of our Canadiens here are still carrying vintage Browning Hi-Powers! This weapon has a very different manual of arms than most modern defensive pistols. Unfortunately they're carried by alot of non combat arms folks who just don't have enough 'reps' in to be comfortable with them.
The number is around 10,000....that is the number of quality reps one needs to have (for just about anything) before you can do 'X' without thinking. When you're at home, unload the weapon and all the magazines and put the rounds away. Once you've confirmed that there are no live rounds in the room and the weapon/magazines are empty, start practicing. Loading, unloading/clearing, magazine changes, field stripping, sight picture, trigger control, drawing, re-holstering etc. Do everything SLOWLY for now concentrating on proper technique and form. Smooth is fast and you'll only get smooth with alot of practice. It takes time, but after a while you'll start feeling comfortable and more confident. Remember your index finger is your primary safety! DonPablo |
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I completely understand your concern. As others have said, holster is everything. AND... I may get flack for this, but who cares, carry un-chambered if that is what you are comfortable with. A gun un chambered is still MUCH better than no gun. A good friend of mine never could get comfortable with it either and always carries unchambered. That works for him.
My usual setup is a G26 chambered in a crossbreed supertuck, or a PPS chambered in a DeSantis Cozy Partner. But sometimes in the summer or jogging I carry a PF9 with a belt clip, un-chambered (without a holster.) |
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I'm personally not comfortable carrying my g26 with a round in the chamber. I know it is safe to do so with my holster, but it still makes me uncomfortable.
What I do is this: I practice with an unloaded weapon, nothing in the chamber, and no magazine in the weapon. I dress like I normally would with my IWB holster and gun in holster. I practice by drawing my g26 from my holster and sling shoting the slide while presenting my weapon. So at the same time I'm bringing the weapon up to position it is also being chambered. By the time I have the sights on target with a proper grip with both hands the round would already be in the chamber. I do this at home so when I go to the range I already have it down. With practice it can be done in a very smooth and fast movement while adding very little time to get from holster to on target. I would say the key is practice presenting your weapon regardless of how you carry so build muscle memory and confidence in your method. While my method may not be the most ideal it is what makes me personally feel most comfortable. Do what you feel most comfortable with and practice with your method. |
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I'm personally not comfortable carrying my g26 with a round in the chamber. I know it is safe to do so with my holster, but it still makes me uncomfortable.
Then you are carrying the wrong gun for you. I disagree because I will not carry ANY gun with a round in the chamber. I'm most confident in my glocks because they will shoot any ammo and go bang every time with no malfunctions. That is what it takes to make me feel confident. I practice my method and feel confident in my method. It doesn't mean it is the best method for anyone else, but the method that makes me feel confident is the best method for ME. edit: I also know that I can slingshot the slide on a glock and it will chamber the round correctly every time. |
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I'm personally not comfortable carrying my g26 with a round in the chamber. I know it is safe to do so with my holster, but it still makes me uncomfortable.
Then you are carrying the wrong gun for you. I disagree because I will not carry ANY gun with a round in the chamber. I'm most confident in my glocks because they will shoot any ammo and go bang every time with no malfunctions. That is what it takes to make me feel confident. I practice my method and feel confident in my method. It doesn't mean it is the best method for anyone else, but the method that makes me feel confident is the best method for ME. edit: I also know that I can slingshot the slide on a glock and it will chamber the round correctly every time. Someone post the video of the guy trying to rack the slide while bad guys kill him.... Maybe later, I'll find the "My Gunfight" write-up posted by one of our members. In short... You believe in your ability to put on the seat belt while the Mack truck is coming through the window... |
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Sorry... everything inside the asterisks are from one of our members. He posted stuff that supports the My Gunfight article... my bad.
> My gunfight - "Thinking Outside your Box" > "Thinking outside your box" > > "...Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong......" > by Larry Correia > > I've been a concealed carry instructor for five years, I hang out with a bunch of gun nuts, and I've been around self-defense buffs for most of my adult life. In that time I've seen a recurring theme, and unfortunately it can be a dangerous one. Many of us have something in common. > > I call it My gunfight. We've imagined a scene, a violent encounter, in our head. And in this scene, we take decisive action and we prevail and save the day. Many of us have a mental fabrication of what My gunfight is going to be like. > > Most people who chose to carry a gun have done this. I have myself. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. In fact, it really helps develop a proper mindset to be able to realistically assess what kind of terrible things can happen to you and start laying some groundwork about how we want to respond. > > The problem comes in when we make assumptions about My gunfight. > Assumptions are awesome when they're actually right, but they sure can hurt when you're wrong. > > I have had students tell me that they never practice at anything past conversational distance, because the average gunfight takes place at only seven feet. See, in Their gunfight, the bad guy will be conveniently placed at a distance that they can actually hit stuff. > > Sadly, there's no such thing as an average gunfight. The only thing they have in common is that they all suck. If you only prepare for a gunfight inside an elevator, it will be a bummer when the crazy guy starts shooting at you across the mall. I've had students tell me that if the assailant is that far away, then they wouldn't be justified in shooting. That's also a mistake. There are hundreds of reasons why you might need to shoot somebody out past conversational distance. And if you find yourself in a situation where you need to, you dang well better have practiced. > > Another assumption I get from many students is that they will have plenty of time to draw their gun and get it into action. Oftentimes these folks want to carry with an empty chamber. There is a misconception that this is somehow safer, and besides in Their gunfight, they'll have plenty of time, and both hands available, to get their pistol into action. > > In real life, the bad guys may not be as compliant as the ones in your gunfight. In real life, the violence may occur so quickly that you do not have time to rack the slide. Or you may have one hand occupied holding the bad guy back from stabbing you in the head with a screwdriver. The point is, you won't know until it happens. Even best case scenario you've added a significant amount of time to your draw stroke (and if you've been in a fight to the death, you know that even a second is a significant amount of time), and one more chance to fumble and screw up. > > During my regular class, I integrate a role-playing session. We go through several realistic scenarios with students and actors armed with rubber weapons. All of these scenarios are based on actual cases, and like real life, most of them tend to happen quickly. > > Usually after going through the role-plays, nobody is tempted to carry chamber empty anymore. A fatal assumption was pointed out in Their gunfight, and they adjust accordingly. If you're really worried about carrying with a loaded chamber, get a good, safe holster that keeps the gun secure and protects the trigger. If you still have a mental hang up, switch to a gun that has a heavier trigger or other safety devices. Anything is faster and safer than assuming you'll be in a position to rack a slide. > > These are just a few examples of assumptions caused by My gunfight. > One of my personal favorite students of all time was hung up, not only on carrying chamber empty, but he also had a belief that he would "easily" be able to neutralize the bad guy by shooting them in the leg. No, I kid you not. He brought this up repeatedly during class, even after I pointed out that it could be just as fatal only slower, the same lethal force in the eyes of the law, and with the added benefit of not being nearly as effective at incapacitating an actual threat. What did I know? I was only the guy he was paying to teach him this stuff. > > During the role-play, he was lucky enough to get a scenario that I use to demonstrate the principles of a Tueller drill. Without going into too many details, I'm playing the part of an obviously dangerous threat, interrupted in the act of committing a forcible felony on a third person, with the ability and opportunity to cause him serious bodily harm, and I just happen to start twenty-one feet away with a rubber knife. > > I charged. He went for his gun. Not only did he fail to rack the slide and shoot me in the leg like he had talked about, he managed to draw the gun, fumble, and actually tossed it across the room. I stabbed him a few times, and as a happy bonus, picked his gun up before I fled the scene. > > His gunfight had not taken into account things like speed, adrenalin, or confusion. Last I checked, he was carrying a chamber loaded Glock, in a good holster, and practicing a bunch. > > That was an extreme example, but I think all of us need to watch out for the decisions we make based upon our assumptions. Be smart, be realistic, and don't be afraid to keep an open mind. Just because My gunfight makes sense to me, doesn't mean that the world cares one bit. > > -Larry Correia is an author, firearms instructor, and one of the owners of Fuzzy Bunny Movie Guns in Draper, Utah. FBMG is a gun store, specializing in self-defense needs, training, and full-line smithing. > > Their online store is at www.fbmginc.com. His first novel, Monster Hunter International, will be released by Baen Books in June 2009. The author can be reached at [email protected] ***************************************************************************************************************************************************** Well some smart people in a big agency have made it a practice to gather video footage (which includes police dashcam footage and video of regular folks in shootings like stop-n-rob security video) of every shooting they can possibly find and have studied it frame by frame trying to figure out what really happens in gunfights. They came to some conclusions. There are essentially two types of incidents: Shootings and gunfights. A shooting is an event where only one party fires a weapon. These incidents tend to involve producing a weapon by surprise and firing a small number of shots...generally no more than 5. An example would be an incident used in lectures by Tom Givens. A small Asian lady working at a convenience store went through one of his classes after being robbed. Not long after going through the class another bad guy came in to rob her convenience store. When the bad guy stuck his gun in her face, she side-stepped while drawing a .38 revolver and shot the guy in the face, dropping him. Action beats reaction, tunnel vision is a bitch, Asian lady wins. A gunfight is an event where at least two parties exchange rounds. These incidents look VERY different than shootings...because the actors in a gunfight tend to shoot until they run out of ammunition. The first person to run out of ammunition either gets the hell out of dodge (assuming they can move) or they end up in really bad shape. Gunfights tend to last in the range of 3-5 seconds. It's also worth noting that the same study of shooting footage shows that under stress people tend to fire 1 shot every .25 of a second whether they can hit anything that way or not. That's essentially their cyclic rate of fire...as fast as they can make the gun go boom. So now if we consider that a 2 way exchange of gunfire lasts 3-5 seconds and that the average person under stress fires a shot every 1/4 of a second, we can start to see that capacity becomes a potential for offensive action. In other words, if I'm carrying a 5 shot revolver I have 1.25 seconds of outgoing fire and a minimum 4 second reload (and I'm being really, really generous for the minimum reload time...I doubt there are more than a handful of people in the world who can reload a J frame from a speed loader in under 4 seconds) for an incident that is probably going to last a minimum of 3 seconds. Hmm....no es bueno. With a Glock 19, on the other hand, I have 4 seconds of outgoing fire with a 2 second reload (again being generous with the reload times, as there probably aren't too many people who can do a sub-2 second reload from concealment under gunfight stress). Even if I don't hit a bloody thing with the Glock 19, I have 2.75 more seconds of sending reasons for the bad guy to f**k off and leave me alone with the Glock 19 than I do with the 5-shot .38 revolver. Now I don't know about you, but if I'm in that kind of a situation I'm going to want those 2.75 seconds. The math, of course, doesn't factor in all the dynamics of a fight like how many bad guys there are (usually between 1 and 3, sometimes more...multiple bad guys is very common), how well you can perform under stress (which most people have never trained for) or the like. Still, it's not an insignificant thing to consider. Assuming we're talking about a caliber and load that gives reliable penetration and expansion, having more bullets on tap is going to be better than having fewer bullets on tap. Some people out there have the insufferably stupid habit of viewing 15 rounds as "a lot" of ammunition. They typically view it this way because they've usually never confronted just how fast a human being can go through 15 rounds. When faced with someone who is trying to kill them, most people will point the weapon in the general direction of the bad guy and pull the trigger until the bad guy drops, stops, or kills them. They react out of blind panic and fear. The well trained react like the well trained and tend to fall more into the making the bad guy drop range of things...but while they are more deliberate in their actions and get better results on target, they tend to pull the trigger a lot too. Most of the guys I know who have been in fights and prevailed shot their opponent multiple times...sometimes emptying an entire mag into someone...even though each hit was a good one that struck vital organs. Why? Because unlike the movies, bad guys don't always fall down when you hit them...even if it's with a wound they cannot survive. A shot directly through the heart will kill someone, but not instantly, and so you are going to keep pulling the trigger until they stop what they are doing. If you want to drop somebody instantly, head shots are the way to do it...but not many people spend the time developing the skill necessary to deliver head shots on demand under gunfight levels of stress. I used to carry a 1911 because I could shoot it better than anything else...meaning that while I only had 9 rounds in the gun, I was better able to direct those 9 rounds intelligently than I would have been with another weapon. The advantage I had in the accuracy I could deliver under stress was worth giving up a bit of capacity for. I spent some time re-working my pistol skills and went back to high-capacity 9mm pistols because now I can shoot them every bit as well as my 1911 plus they have more bullets. No-brainer. I'm not giving up anything by going with a smaller caliber. I say that because if you look around the country you'll find that there are police departments who issue 9mm handguns with good ammunition that are killing lots of bad guys with them. There are departments who issue 40 caliber handguns with good ammunition that are killing lots of bad guys with them. There are departments around the country who issue .357 sig handguns with good ammunition that are killing lots of bad guys with them. There are departments around the country who issue .45 ACP handguns with good ammunition that are killing lots of bad guys with them. Seeing a pattern? As long as you pick a good service caliber with good ammunition, what caliber you choose is largely irrelevant in terms of the results you can reasonably expect out of a handgun. The cumulative wisdom from a bunch of testing and autopsies shows that any of the major service calibers will do the job assuming you can do your part on the sights and the trigger. If you can, you'll ruin a bad guy's day. If you can't, inflicting a minor wound with a .45 ACP is no better than inflicting a minor wound with a 9mm. Since caliber doesn't matter too much, you're left to worry about more important stuff like getting a reliable weapon that you can afford to shoot a lot and develop the skill necessary to put bullets where they need to go under stress. If you're paying for your own ammo, 9mm usually offers the best shot at that. If Glocks work well for you, the 9mm ones tend to be the most reliable and trouble free of the Glock lineup....so a Glock 9mm would work splendidly in terms of reliability, capacity, and the ability to make bad guys stop their hostile actions. The LAPD and NYPD issue 9mm Glock pistols with good ammo and they seem to be doing OK at keeping officers alive and killing bad guys. Etc. If you want to learn about how gunfights inside the continental US go, I suggest calling up Tom Givens and ordering his "Lessons From The Street" DVD. Tom teaches in Memphis and to this point has had over 60 of his students involved in a lethal force encounter after going through his instruction. They've done extremely well. Tom uses some of those incidents to show you the nature of bad guys in general and to teach some truths about the way gunfights work. ************************************************************************************************************************* |
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One thing you gotta realize is that if the gun goes off by your leg, it doesnt matter where the barrel is pointed, it is similar to keeping your thumb forward of the cylinder - You are going to catch muzzle blast from the gas and it will burn and hurt you anyways.
So just stop carrying altogether, because that MIGHT happen. Keep the gun either on half cock or safety. You wont have any issues. Get a holster that covers the controls and trigger, and you are fine. I went for a run the other day and my revolver fell from my holster, hammer down, and didnt even go off. You'r gun isnt going to shoot unless the TRIGGER IS PULLED. Guns are drop tested. Dont worry about your gun shooting you. |
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I'm personally not comfortable carrying my g26 with a round in the chamber. I know it is safe to do so with my holster, but it still makes me uncomfortable.
Then you are carrying the wrong gun for you. I disagree because I will not carry ANY gun with a round in the chamber. I'm most confident in my glocks because they will shoot any ammo and go bang every time with no malfunctions. That is what it takes to make me feel confident. I practice my method and feel confident in my method. It doesn't mean it is the best method for anyone else, but the method that makes me feel confident is the best method for ME. edit: I also know that I can slingshot the slide on a glock and it will chamber the round correctly every time. Someone post the video of the guy trying to rack the slide while bad guys kill him.... Maybe later, I'll find the "My Gunfight" write-up posted by one of our members. In short... You believe in your ability to put on the seat belt while the Mack truck is coming through the window... It's up to each person to decide what they are comfortable with and what the risks/rewards are with their decision. I'm responsible for my own decisions and consequences of those decisions. My personal decision was that carrying without a round in the chamber was better than not carrying at all. In a best case scenerio I would carry my rifle instead of a handgun, but I can't conceal a rifle under normal circumstances. I realize that in an attack you will not have much time, but I also know that situational awareness can help tremendously. The biggest point I wanted to make was do what you are most comfortable with and most importantly...TRAIN WITH YOUR CHOSEN METHOD! |
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You don't take the battery out of your car every time you park, do you? A modern handgun with good ammo will not fire unless the trigger is pulled. There is just as much a chance of your car starting, putting itself in gear and driving away. I have an engineering mind and I recognize that not everyone does, but if you choose to make a piece of equipment (car, gun, etc) part of your daily life I feel you should have a solid mechanical understanding of it. No, I cannot name off all the parts of my car, but I can describe to someone that has never seen a car before what happens when I turn the key or depress the accelerator. Same with a gun, and honestly I know my guns far better than my cars.
The idea that a Glock could fire without the trigger being manipulated is mechanically false. The only exception would be the cartridge setting itself off, but the gun will not set the cartridge off without the trigger being pulled. I have studied the mechanics and have come to the conclusion that is it not just marketing hype, it is simple engineering. If you ever shoot yourself or someone else, YOU will have done that, not the gun. The issue being one of trusting yourself then, and that is where practice comes in. |
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The idea that a Glock could fire without the trigger being manipulated is mechanically false. The only exception would be the cartridge setting itself off, but the gun will not set the cartridge off without the trigger being pulled. I have studied the mechanics and have come to the conclusion that is it not just marketing hype, it is simple engineering. If you ever shoot yourself or someone else, YOU will have done that, not the gun. The issue being one of trusting yourself then, and that is where practice comes in. This brings up a good point, OP, that may have been mentioned (I dont remember if I saw it or not). You need to trust your gear, your gun, but most importantly yourself and be confident in your fundamentals with safety, employing the weapon, and knowing where your digits are to prevent a ND and putting a round into your leg when drawing. Also, get some training, that will help build your confidence and fundamentals (even beginner classes are good, just dont jump over your level). When I first started carrying, I practiced drawing my M&P at the time (unloaded) to get used to drawing it and having a safe draw for me and bystanders at the range or if SHTF out on the town. I drew it and I consistently pulled the trigger hearing it click. I slowed it down step by step and saw that after I cleared the holster I went into the trigger guard and when I was drawing I was going faster than I should and pulling the trigger. I slowed it down, and when I cleared the holster I rode the frame with my trigger finger and did it about 100 times a day for 2 weeks. Slowly speeding up the process, and got to where it is habit to where I am out of the guard, then go to the trigger as needed. Then I could transition into dry fire from there. It built confidence in my system, but a lot into me as well doing it that way. |
Like I said, when I was 19 years old the AF gave me a .38 snubbie and later the M9 (round chambered safety off) and told me to holster it and shoot anyone who tried to hijack our airplane. If I would have whined that I wasn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber they'd have called me a pussy and yanked the wings off my flightsuit. Cowboy up and carry it properly or leave it home. If the idea of something impossible happening worries you, then firearms may not be your cup of tea.
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The military has a different mission and a different set of priorities meaning the occasional training or operational accident is regrettable, but not a big enough deal to impact the mission.
Like I said, when I was 19 years old the AF gave me a .38 snubbie and later the M9 (round chambered safety off) and told me to holster it and shoot anyone who tried to hijack our airplane. If I would have whined that I wasn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber they'd have called me a pussy and yanked the wings off my flightsuit. Cowboy up and carry it properly or leave it home. If the idea of something impossible happening worries you, then firearms may not be your cup of tea. http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/cargo/images/c141toff.jpg That said, safety off and round in the chamber with a M9 is still a bad idea. Granted, the ergonomics of slide mounted controls on the M9 are less than superb, but that's just one of the many things that made little sense when it was adopted, and ironically it was adopted with the idea that most troops would carry it in condition 3 (hammer down, safety off on an empty chamber). I am also not a Glock fan. From an instructor perspective it's easy to take a noob and get them minimally proficient with a Glock as all the safety mechanisms are connected to the trigger. But that also means protection of the trigger is paramount and incidences of "glock leg" are all too common from shooters not keeping their figure out of the guard when drawing or re-holstering the pistol. With concealed carry you are adding other threats such as draw cords on the bottom of a jacket, or any other object or piece of clothing that can snag the trigger or enter the trigger guard when the weapon is being holstered. It's also attractive to many law enforcement agencies it operates much like a double action service revolver - just pull the trigger until it goes bang. Consistent with that, and in response to the "everything is tied to the trigger issue, many agencies buy them with "New York" triggers with trigger pulls upwards of 12 pounds to make NDs a little less likely. |
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The military has a different mission and a different set of priorities meaning the occasional training or operational accident is regrettable, but not a big enough deal to impact the mission.
Like I said, when I was 19 years old the AF gave me a .38 snubbie and later the M9 (round chambered safety off) and told me to holster it and shoot anyone who tried to hijack our airplane. If I would have whined that I wasn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber they'd have called me a pussy and yanked the wings off my flightsuit. Cowboy up and carry it properly or leave it home. If the idea of something impossible happening worries you, then firearms may not be your cup of tea. http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/cargo/images/c141toff.jpg Uh, not quite. An ND inside a airplane at 45,000' can be either inconsequential or catastrophic. I doubt you've ever been involved in Air Force flying, as safety is so important that we would delay or cancel a mission for some pretty minor safety issues. Yes, a 19 year old loadmaster can (and has) cancelled a flight for some pretty minor safety violations. Flying in the AF isn't like front line infantry; we are not expendable (as if they were). We didn't have NDs because we didn't fool with the sidearm- PERIOD. We had some very specific rules, like transfers of the weapon- it had to be placed on a flat surface. During flight when the Flight Engineers swapped and the panel Engineer hit the bunk, the relief Engineer took the weapon. So it changed hands twice on every overseas flight and NEVER an ND. Regrettable? I can tell you factually the Air Force does NOT think that way. A person would lose their wings if they discharged a firearm aboard an aircraft- on the ground or in the air. You're trying to speak about things of which you know nothing. |
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Quoted: The military has a different mission and a different set of priorities meaning the occasional training or operational accident is regrettable, but not a big enough deal to impact the mission. That said, safety off and round in the chamber with a M9 is still a bad idea. Granted, the ergonomics of slide mounted controls on the M9 are less than superb, but that's just one of the many things that made little sense when it was adopted, and ironically it was adopted with the idea that most troops would carry it in condition 3 (hammer down, safety off on an empty chamber). I am also not a Glock fan. From an instructor perspective it's easy to take a noob and get them minimally proficient with a Glock as all the safety mechanisms are connected to the trigger. But that also means protection of the trigger is paramount and incidences of "glock leg" are all too common from shooters not keeping their figure out of the guard when drawing or re-holstering the pistol. With concealed carry you are adding other threats such as draw cords on the bottom of a jacket, or any other object or piece of clothing that can snag the trigger or enter the trigger guard when the weapon is being holstered. It's also attractive to many law enforcement agencies it operates much like a double action service revolver - just pull the trigger until it goes bang. Consistent with that, and in response to the "everything is tied to the trigger issue, many agencies buy them with "New York" triggers with trigger pulls upwards of 12 pounds to make NDs a little less likely. Why? The only pistols I carry with the safety on are single actions. |
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Agreed.
DA/SA pistols like the M9 can safely be carried chambered, hammer down, and safety off. It is in no different of a condition as a revolver at that point. Quoted:
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The military has a different mission and a different set of priorities meaning the occasional training or operational accident is regrettable, but not a big enough deal to impact the mission. That said, safety off and round in the chamber with a M9 is still a bad idea. Granted, the ergonomics of slide mounted controls on the M9 are less than superb, but that's just one of the many things that made little sense when it was adopted, and ironically it was adopted with the idea that most troops would carry it in condition 3 (hammer down, safety off on an empty chamber). I am also not a Glock fan. From an instructor perspective it's easy to take a noob and get them minimally proficient with a Glock as all the safety mechanisms are connected to the trigger. But that also means protection of the trigger is paramount and incidences of "glock leg" are all too common from shooters not keeping their figure out of the guard when drawing or re-holstering the pistol. With concealed carry you are adding other threats such as draw cords on the bottom of a jacket, or any other object or piece of clothing that can snag the trigger or enter the trigger guard when the weapon is being holstered. It's also attractive to many law enforcement agencies it operates much like a double action service revolver - just pull the trigger until it goes bang. Consistent with that, and in response to the "everything is tied to the trigger issue, many agencies buy them with "New York" triggers with trigger pulls upwards of 12 pounds to make NDs a little less likely. Why? The only pistols I carry with the safety on are single actions. |
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I disagree
I know; hopefully you'll come realize an unloaded chamber is a very bad idea; all your wonderful practice won't make up for your fine motor skills disappearing in the heat of the moment. You would be better off with a revolver if you won't carry a truly loaded gun. |
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I don't know of a single armed professional group that teaches carrying a gun with an empty chamber, there is a reason for that. Empty chambers in life and death situations WILL get you killed if you cannot chamber a round.
The Israelis teach empty chamber for a reason, they had and still have a mishmach of weapons and teach empty chamber carry to simplify the manual of arms and also because some of the guns they have may have safeties that don't work. Any modern gun you should consider carrying cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. I have never heard of a gun " just going off" if you look into those reports something touched the trigger and caused it to fire. Get some professional instruction on how to carry a gun properly and pick a good holster. You will be fine. |
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That was the point.
Agreed. DA/SA pistols like the M9 can safely be carried chambered, hammer down, and safety off. It is in no different of a condition as a revolver at that point. Glock, M9 hammer down and safety off, or DA revolver, with all three the sole remaining safety mechanism is protection of the trigger. are there circumstances where that works fine? Absolutely. If concealed carry one of them? Not really - there are better methods with less chance of an AD.. |
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You're making the point nicely.
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The military has a different mission and a different set of priorities meaning the occasional training or operational accident is regrettable, but not a big enough deal to impact the mission.
Like I said, when I was 19 years old the AF gave me a .38 snubbie and later the M9 (round chambered safety off) and told me to holster it and shoot anyone who tried to hijack our airplane. If I would have whined that I wasn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber they'd have called me a pussy and yanked the wings off my flightsuit. Cowboy up and carry it properly or leave it home. If the idea of something impossible happening worries you, then firearms may not be your cup of tea. http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/cargo/images/c141toff.jpg Uh, not quite. An ND inside a airplane at 45,000' can be either inconsequential or catastrophic. I doubt you've ever been involved in Air Force flying, as safety is so important that we would delay or cancel a mission for some pretty minor safety issues. Yes, a 19 year old loadmaster can (and has) cancelled a flight for some pretty minor safety violations. Flying in the AF isn't like front line infantry; we are not expendable (as if they were). We didn't have NDs because we didn't fool with the sidearm- PERIOD. We had some very specific rules, like transfers of the weapon- it had to be placed on a flat surface. During flight when the Flight Engineers swapped and the panel Engineer hit the bunk, the relief Engineer took the weapon. So it changed hands twice on every overseas flight and NEVER an ND. Regrettable? I can tell you factually the Air Force does NOT think that way. A person would lose their wings if they discharged a firearm aboard an aircraft- on the ground or in the air. You're trying to speak about things of which you know nothing. The risk of an ND is one that is accepted due to the greater advantage of having an armed crewman aboard with a weapon that's ready to use. That risk is mitigated through training and procedures, but it is a risk that is accepted none the less. I would recommend you not assume anything as you'll find people with leg spreaders in the strangest places. Historically the USAF and the US military in general has waxed and waned on the priorities of safety versus training and/or mission completion, and depending on the current priorities careers are made and lost based on either safety or mission accomplishment. It can also vary by command. Even within the same command, there may be competing priorities. For example back in the day SAC would approve of a pilot pressing on to get bombs on target in an ORI despite an impressive list of in flight failures, while they'd take an extremely dim view of a tanker crew risking what was regarded as a force multiplier and strategic asset just to save another aircraft. Also, have you considered why you carried an M9 just like a .38? If both operate the same way (just point and pull the trigger) then regardless of who you hand the weapon off to, how long they've been in the service or when they were trained, the procedures are identical. Then there's also the piss poor ergonomics of the slide mounted safety on the M9, making de-activation of the safety problematic during a draw. What that means is that while it's the way it's done it's not optimal and it was not the way the M9 was intended to be used - or the .38 for that matter. Absent a transfer bar, revolvers have traditionally be carried on an empty cylinder and the M9 was adopted with a belief that they'd be carried in condition 3 (hammer down on an empty chamber), with the safety coming in to play after the troop had chambered a round in a combat situation. Believe it or not, the major consideration was not how the USAF would choose to use them, or the need to reflect operating procedures used with .38's that were adopted by the USAAC in WWII for air crew use only due to a shortage of 1911A1s. Now take all of that into consideration and tell me how USAF procedures with an M9 in a cargo aircraft relates to best practices in concealed carry? |
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OP- How is it pointed at your leg sitting down? You don't have it stuffed down the front of your pants do you? Carry at 4 to 4:30 and you won't have a problem. Just picture where a duty holster would sit, and move it back a bit. Maybe this is part of the issue. It is at 2:30. Ill try it at 3:30 or 4. Also I'll try to find someone who does kydex work locally. I've been shooting for 20 years. I know guns don't just go off, but I treat them like they can. I am new to cc though. One freak accident when I carry 24/7 would be bad with what I currently have. I think a different carry position and a better holster will keep my gun pointed down. I will be much more comfortable then. Even IF a freak accident happened and it went off then it will be in a safe direction. That redundancy is what I am after. I never have worried with my external holsters because they work well and keep the muzzle down. By the way. I think the title of this thread is striking a nerve. I did not mean to imply I think cc is unsafe. I just figured I must be doing something wrong because I did not feel like I was carrying correctly. Thanks for all the help though. I think this is your problem. Get a real holster, a real gun belt, and try carrying at the 3:30 or 4 oclock position. I use a N82 tactical holster with my XDS and carry it between the 3:30 and 4:00 position. Basically so the holser is sitting right against the side of my ass cheek (Sorry for that visual  ). It is very comfortable. I can sit down in my truck or on the couch comfortably without adjusting anything.
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Now take all of that into consideration and tell me how USAF procedures with an M9 in a cargo aircraft relates to best practices in concealed carry?
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The military has a different mission and a different set of priorities meaning the occasional training or operational accident is regrettable, but not a big enough deal to impact the mission.
Like I said, when I was 19 years old the AF gave me a .38 snubbie and later the M9 (round chambered safety off) and told me to holster it and shoot anyone who tried to hijack our airplane. If I would have whined that I wasn't comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber they'd have called me a pussy and yanked the wings off my flightsuit. Cowboy up and carry it properly or leave it home. If the idea of something impossible happening worries you, then firearms may not be your cup of tea. http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/cargo/images/c141toff.jpg Uh, not quite. An ND inside a airplane at 45,000' can be either inconsequential or catastrophic. I doubt you've ever been involved in Air Force flying, as safety is so important that we would delay or cancel a mission for some pretty minor safety issues. Yes, a 19 year old loadmaster can (and has) cancelled a flight for some pretty minor safety violations. Flying in the AF isn't like front line infantry; we are not expendable (as if they were). We didn't have NDs because we didn't fool with the sidearm- PERIOD. We had some very specific rules, like transfers of the weapon- it had to be placed on a flat surface. During flight when the Flight Engineers swapped and the panel Engineer hit the bunk, the relief Engineer took the weapon. So it changed hands twice on every overseas flight and NEVER an ND. Regrettable? I can tell you factually the Air Force does NOT think that way. A person would lose their wings if they discharged a firearm aboard an aircraft- on the ground or in the air. You're trying to speak about things of which you know nothing. I think you missed my point. I was speaking to the crowd who state they are too nervous-uncomfortable-unsafe (whichever) to carry with a round in the chamber. You are right about the training, but you're mistaken about their motive. Our training waxed and waned purely because of budget, but suffice to say it was pretty weak. And that's my point- we didn't get the greatest training, we were told to carry (M9 w/round chambered safety off, decocked) and we did. No complaining about being nervous or uncomfortable, we just did it and we did it safely. We knew the mechanics that were required to touch off a round and we made sure not to do that. It worked. I flew for over 17 of my 20, and never even heard about an ND. |