[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Concealed Carry HORROR STORY!!! (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 1/11/2011 8:45:56 AM EDT
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www.freefriartuck.com
This is pathetic that a guy can't protect himself without getting crucified by the government. |
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www.freefriartuck.com This is pathetic that a guy can't protect himself without getting crucified by the government. Makes some want to re-think the Non-Lethal ways you can deter an agressor, huh. The .gov doesn't think it 'Ok' to 'brandish' a lethal weapon in the face of a 'Non-Lethal' agressor so now that guy has holy hell to pay for ensuring the safety of his children in the face of -what is possibly- an 'irrational' agressor. |
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It is interesting that he uses "Hard Facts" to justify his reactions but the "Hard Facts" are not information known at the time of the encounter. From reading his side and what he brought to the table, I'd say he brought a gun to a yelling match or maybe a simple assault. Neither justify deadly force at least in the state I live. He introduced a deadly threat first and therefore he was the aggressor.
Yes, this is the poster child case for carrying something in addition to lethal force. A can of OC could have changed the whole outcome of this story. It may not have but when the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. |
| As far as what the story gives us, this is ridiculous what happened to him. He had all the right to do what he did. One of my mothers acquaintances has son about 30 years old who was attacked by a drunk at a bar, and the drunk gave his head a few good hits to the ground. He is now reduced to the mentality of a 3yr. old, and has to be taken care of by his parents. Not that a gun would have helped him in his situation, but my point is, courts seem to think that aggression or small fights are no big deal (physically). However they are, and all it could have toke was one punch from that angry soccer parent to really mess up that guys life. |
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he responded appropriately if you ask me, this guy was in his face... the threat ceased. no shots were fired and the blowhard got the surprise of his ignorant life. perhaps he will think the next time he wants to get in someones face.
there have been plenty of people beat to death with bare hands, and an occasional few that have died from one punch. i have no plans to take an ass kicking from anyone while i have a perfectly good gun with me, especially when my kid or family will be at his mercy with me out of the way. had he not been right in his face, a call to 911 would have been appropriate, then with them on the phone if things escalated he could have resorted to the gun.but as we know rational thinking can go out the window during a stressful situation. my .02 |
1. He never should have gone to the cops after the incident. "We thought he was following us."  NEVER INVITE THE MAN INTO YOUR LIFE. It would be different if this was at his home, but if I pull my CCW on someone, and don't shoot, I'm just getting the hell out of dodge, unless there's some other factor.
2. He was pressured into pleading, something that he should not have done. I don't think the state could have won at trial. 3. It's not clear to me that he could not have left. I'm trying to imagine the situation, and I don't see how he was trapped. Let the idiot find someone else to fight and get killed/arrested. |
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Quoted: Yes, this is the poster child case for carrying something in addition to lethal force. A can of OC could have changed the whole outcome of this story. It may not have but when the only tool you have is a hammer every problem looks like a nail. Beat me to it. |
| I can see what happened with the guy. When I was 17 I was at a Concert at Hi Fi Buys Amph-Theatre in Atl, Ga. A guy started a fight with a smaller guy and the small guy kept trying to get away from him. The group I was with tried ot intervene but couldn't get the big guy to calm down. He hit the small guy one time and he fell back and hit the base of his skull on concrete steps. It killed him. The smaller guy was doing nothing but tryign to get away from him. He ran off immediatly and as far as I know got off scot free. So a small altercation can be deadly. After that i definatley think differently about fist fights. |
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Pulling a gun on someone raising their voice and even threatening to fight you is going to get you fucked everytime.
I try to keep abreast of concealed carry shootings and displays that prevent a crime. I am not aware of someone pulling a gun to end a confrontation with an unarmed man and the one with the gun not getting arrested IF the police get involved. I am aware of the roadrage case in texas a few years ago where the guy got punched in the face once or twice and then shot the puncher killing him. |
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1. He never should have gone to the cops after the incident. "We thought he was following us." NEVER INVITE THE MAN INTO YOUR LIFE. It would be different if this was at his home, but if I pull my CCW on someone, and don't shoot, I'm just getting the hell out of dodge, unless there's some other factor.A year ago, a guy in town did that very thing and got arrested for it. Someone was pissed about a parking spot at Walmart and was threatening to beat his ass, pulled a gun to diffuse the situation, then got back in his car and went home. Cops came knocking a little while later because the big mouth called it in. Personally, if the guy is berating me, I'm not drawing. If he reaches a point where i'm no longer comfortable with his presence, I'll ask him to leave me alone. If he continues to advance, he's getting a warning, and I'm getting my hand on my pistol. Course, all this stuff varies on a state by state basis, so it's best to know your own state's laws. Personally, I have no duty to retreat if faced with the threat of great bodily harm/death. Great bodily harm includes getting my face pounded in by someone else's fists. Your mileage will vary. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Thankfully in Florida I have no need to retreat from ANYWHERE that I can lawfully be and can stand my ground up drawing and/or firing my weapon One of the few things I enjoy about this state. I remember getting my CCW before the no retreat measure was adopted though. You were almost safer not having a CCW. I avoid confrontation at all times. I'm getting to the point where I know that some 19 year old pissed off kid could possibly stomp me. Not because I'm out of shape or haven't been trained. I'm a former Marine. I'm just getting close to 40 and my body doesn't do what it used to. Too many people underestimate the advantage of youth. My friend (well driller built like a rock) went to a high school party to confront some kids that beat up his nephew earlier in the evening. Those same kids took aluminum bats too him, he lost his right eye and tore his shoulder. The kids were all around the age of 16. He's in his 40's. He had no recourse as he went looking for a fight. Now he can't drive and has to pay extra help to stay in business. If someone see's the end of my barrel it's because they've earned it. |
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First, the guy never said that he wanted to do anything but talk. Maybe he was planning on stomping his ass but until he tries or says that he is going to try that is a big assumption to make. I don't care what he has a masters degree in. He shouldn't have pulled a gun. If he wasn't at the point where he needed to use it then it shouldn't have ever left his holster.
Option 1: He should have got in his car (that he stated he was standing next to) drove away and called the cops. Option 2: If you think the guy is somehow going to keep you from getting in your car or that he might break a window and hurt your child then you call the cops where you stand so anything the aggressor says is on a 911 recording. If you need to use your gun because he attacks you or says that he is going to attack you then it is on a recorded line with the police. Much easier to justify using your gun at that point but would likely diffuse the situation enough for you to drive away. The reality is that if he thought the man was a threat he should have kept an eye on him so that the bad guy didn't end up standing behind him leaving him vulnerable. The guy clearly had a problem with him so he could have sent his wife to get the kids in the car which would have kept them safe and then he could have hopped in and been on the way. I hate to be a dick on this because I never like to see a concealed carry licensee get burned at the stake but he made a lot of mistakes that put him in the position where he felt vulnerable because he was admittedly older, fat, fragile and had been beat up a few times as a kid. A little situational awareness would have gone a long way to keep him out of harms way. In the end, it sucks for the guy trying to keep his family safe, but it was largely his own fault. |
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I'm torn on this one. Going to the cops can get you in trouble. Not going to the cops can get you in trouble. There're true stories of both kinds.
1. He never should have gone to the cops after the incident. "We thought he was following us." NEVER INVITE THE MAN INTO YOUR LIFE. It would be different if this was at his home, but if I pull my CCW on someone, and don't shoot, I'm just getting the hell out of dodge, unless there's some other factor.2. He was pressured into pleading, something that he should not have done. I don't think the state could have won at trial. 3. It's not clear to me that he could not have left. I'm trying to imagine the situation, and I don't see how he was trapped. Let the idiot find someone else to fight and get killed/arrested. |
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I'm torn on this one. Going to the cops can get you in trouble. Not going to the cops can get you in trouble. There're true stories of both kinds.
1. He never should have gone to the cops after the incident. "We thought he was following us." NEVER INVITE THE MAN INTO YOUR LIFE. It would be different if this was at his home, but if I pull my CCW on someone, and don't shoot, I'm just getting the hell out of dodge, unless there's some other factor.2. He was pressured into pleading, something that he should not have done. I don't think the state could have won at trial. 3. It's not clear to me that he could not have left. I'm trying to imagine the situation, and I don't see how he was trapped. Let the idiot find someone else to fight and get killed/arrested. True enough but if you are going to pull a gun you had better be able to do a better job illustrating why you did so to a jury of your peers who may not like guns and you had better have enough balls to go to trial to explain it to them. |
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Justice is blind. The legal system is not set up to care about what is right. Makes it unfair sometimes.
I've never heard of a hint of sympathy from judges, DA's, or even most cops when it comes to a CCW. Assault on someone older and out of shape is life threatening but the law doesn't see it that way. Under duress it's very hard to handle situations perfectly. You need to think this through ahead of time. The law doesn't seem to consider that the guy just wanted out of there safely and did what he thought he needed to do to make that happen. From here we have no idea of what it was like in real time and it is unlikely anything our analysis yields will be a close match to reality. |
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I'm posting without reading all of the replies, because honestly I found most of them astonishing. This guy opened his mouth and started a conflict with a currently non violent aggressor while carrying. The guy was yelling at the coach, big freaking deal. It isn't a polite thing to do, but leave it alone unless a violent situation occurs and you decide to step in. By the way, I don't have children, but if I did I would never volunteer myself to give aid in a retarded pissing contest while they were with me. So this guy takes his kids and leaves, then the aggressor decides to follow him for some words. The guy gets his kids in the car and the aggressor calls out to him ready to have words/throw down.
This guy lives up to his attitude, the little man toted a big gun, that gave him a big voice. He then used it and got himself into a bad situation, which got him into a worse situation when he drew. So many guys now days are afraid to get into a fight. I understand that fights now days can be much more dangerous than in the past, but you can't pull a gun just to avoid one. Your first line against violence being brought upon you and your family is you. Keep your mouth shut when you have your kids with you. Don't invite problems while you are carrying and when you draw breath to make a comment, or draw a gun to make a noise you better be able to back it up. |
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Don't invite problems while you are carrying and when you draw breath to make a comment, or draw a gun to make a noise you better be able to back it up. Agreed. It sounds like he may have invited the problem. It's impossible to judge the situation because I wasn't there, and it sounds like there's another side to this story. |
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I'm posting without reading all of the replies, because honestly I found most of them astonishing. This guy opened his mouth and started a conflict with a currently non violent aggressor while carrying. The guy was yelling at the coach, big freaking deal. It isn't a polite thing to do, but leave it alone unless a violent situation occurs and you decide to step in. By the way, I don't have children, but if I did I would never volunteer myself to give aid in a retarded pissing contest while they were with me. So this guy takes his kids and leaves, then the aggressor decides to follow him for some words. The guy gets his kids in the car and the aggressor calls out to him ready to have words/throw down. This guy lives up to his attitude, the little man toted a big gun, that gave him a big voice. He then used it and got himself into a bad situation, which got him into a worse situation when he drew. So many guys now days are afraid to get into a fight. I understand that fights now days can be much more dangerous than in the past, but you can't pull a gun just to avoid one. Your first line against violence being brought upon you and your family is you. Keep your mouth shut when you have your kids with you. Don't invite problems while you are carrying and when you draw breath to make a comment, or draw a gun to make a noise you better be able to back it up. And if said parties end up getting in a fight and the his gun is exposed and taken by a possbily unstable person...... I do not yet have a CCL, but it would appear to me if you are carrying you should do all that you can to avoid a physical fight thus avoid losing control of the weapon in your possion. Yes, there are so many times where we can say you should of done this instead of that, but we were not there. Hindsight is great but sometimes if we could redo our actions, the outcome would end up the same with the bully iching to fight and looking for what they think it is "easiest" target still at your heals. I guess if you look at Phoenix this last weekend, the best outcome of having a CCW is never to have had to use it. |
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I'm posting without reading all of the replies, because honestly I found most of them astonishing. This guy opened his mouth and started a conflict with a currently non violent aggressor while carrying. The guy was yelling at the coach, big freaking deal. It isn't a polite thing to do, but leave it alone unless a violent situation occurs and you decide to step in. By the way, I don't have children, but if I did I would never volunteer myself to give aid in a retarded pissing contest while they were with me. So this guy takes his kids and leaves, then the aggressor decides to follow him for some words. The guy gets his kids in the car and the aggressor calls out to him ready to have words/throw down. This guy lives up to his attitude, the little man toted a big gun, that gave him a big voice. He then used it and got himself into a bad situation, which got him into a worse situation when he drew. So many guys now days are afraid to get into a fight. I understand that fights now days can be much more dangerous than in the past, but you can't pull a gun just to avoid one. Your first line against violence being brought upon you and your family is you. Keep your mouth shut when you have your kids with you. Don't invite problems while you are carrying and when you draw breath to make a comment, or draw a gun to make a noise you better be able to back it up. I do not yet have a CCL, but it would appear to me if you are carrying you should do all that you can to avoid a physical fight thus avoid losing control of the weapon in your possion. You should really absorb what I said then. Since he was in fact carrying he should have steered clear of a verbal confrontation that did not concern him. The best way to prevent your gun being taken from you during a fight is to not get into a fight. As I hope you will learn before you get your CHL there are certain things you should avoid while carrying. Unnecessary conflict is one of them. As for fighting to keep your gun, as somebody that carries I prepare for these situations as I would hope others also do. Strong retention techniques and a blade into someones hand can do wonders against a gun grab. Guns, knives, knowledge of self defense are all tools we use to keep ourselves and loved ones safe. I cannot stress enough that keeping your head on a swivel and using your ears instead of your mouth are the best ways to keep yourself safe and out of situations like these. This guy is just one more reason why you shouldn't draw your gun unless you intend to use it. |
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I'm posting without reading all of the replies, because honestly I found most of them astonishing. This guy opened his mouth and started a conflict with a currently non violent aggressor while carrying. The guy was yelling at the coach, big freaking deal. It isn't a polite thing to do, but leave it alone unless a violent situation occurs and you decide to step in. By the way, I don't have children, but if I did I would never volunteer myself to give aid in a retarded pissing contest while they were with me. So this guy takes his kids and leaves, then the aggressor decides to follow him for some words. The guy gets his kids in the car and the aggressor calls out to him ready to have words/throw down. This guy lives up to his attitude, the little man toted a big gun, that gave him a big voice. He then used it and got himself into a bad situation, which got him into a worse situation when he drew. So many guys now days are afraid to get into a fight. I understand that fights now days can be much more dangerous than in the past, but you can't pull a gun just to avoid one. Your first line against violence being brought upon you and your family is you. Keep your mouth shut when you have your kids with you. Don't invite problems while you are carrying and when you draw breath to make a comment, or draw a gun to make a noise you better be able to back it up. I do not yet have a CCL, but it would appear to me if you are carrying you should do all that you can to avoid a physical fight thus avoid losing control of the weapon in your possion. You should really absorb what I said then. Since he was in fact carrying he should have steered clear of a verbal confrontation that did not concern him. The best way to prevent your gun being taken from you during a fight is to not get into a fight. As I hope you will learn before you get your CHL there are certain things you should avoid while carrying. Unnecessary conflict is one of them. As for fighting to keep your gun, as somebody that carries I prepare for these situations as I would hope others also do. Strong retention techniques and a blade into someones hand can do wonders against a gun grab. Guns, knives, knowledge of self defense are all tools we use to keep ourselves and loved ones safe. I cannot stress enough that keeping your head on a swivel and using your ears instead of your mouth are the best ways to keep yourself safe and out of situations like these. This guy is just one more reason why you shouldn't draw your gun unless you intend to use it. I think we actually agree on this. The only point I was trying to make is that sometimes even if you do everything right, sometimes the other person just is hunting for a target to pick a fight with. Could be just a sideways glance that sets him off and makes his target. |
| If you are not willing to get into a fistfight, don't get into an argument. Bite your tongue and walk away if you can. This guy would have been much, much better off with a can of pepper spray or even better, two or three other guys backing him up. Guns are for deadly force only. This is why cops don't just carry guns, they have a whole belt full of options. After five plus years of having a CWP, I have come to the conclusion that the truth is, most people who carry concealed are at greater risk than the average person. It's easy to misinterpret a situation or to act impulsively out of fear. |
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I have come to the conclusion that the truth is, most people who carry concealed are at greater risk than the average person. It's easy to misinterpret a situation or to act impulsively out of fear. If your only tool is a hammer, then every problem gets bladed at 45 degrees. People should have the training and the mindset to just walk away when possible and not start things. |
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I'm posting without reading all of the replies, because honestly I found most of them astonishing. This guy opened his mouth and started a conflict with a currently non violent aggressor while carrying. The guy was yelling at the coach, big freaking deal. It isn't a polite thing to do, but leave it alone unless a violent situation occurs and you decide to step in. By the way, I don't have children, but if I did I would never volunteer myself to give aid in a retarded pissing contest while they were with me. So this guy takes his kids and leaves, then the aggressor decides to follow him for some words. The guy gets his kids in the car and the aggressor calls out to him ready to have words/throw down. This guy lives up to his attitude, the little man toted a big gun, that gave him a big voice. He then used it and got himself into a bad situation, which got him into a worse situation when he drew. So many guys now days are afraid to get into a fight. I understand that fights now days can be much more dangerous than in the past, but you can't pull a gun just to avoid one. Your first line against violence being brought upon you and your family is you. Keep your mouth shut when you have your kids with you. Don't invite problems while you are carrying and when you draw breath to make a comment, or draw a gun to make a noise you better be able to back it up. I do not yet have a CCL, but it would appear to me if you are carrying you should do all that you can to avoid a physical fight thus avoid losing control of the weapon in your possion. You should really absorb what I said then. Since he was in fact carrying he should have steered clear of a verbal confrontation that did not concern him. The best way to prevent your gun being taken from you during a fight is to not get into a fight. As I hope you will learn before you get your CHL there are certain things you should avoid while carrying. Unnecessary conflict is one of them. As for fighting to keep your gun, as somebody that carries I prepare for these situations as I would hope others also do. Strong retention techniques and a blade into someones hand can do wonders against a gun grab. Guns, knives, knowledge of self defense are all tools we use to keep ourselves and loved ones safe. I cannot stress enough that keeping your head on a swivel and using your ears instead of your mouth are the best ways to keep yourself safe and out of situations like these. This guy is just one more reason why you shouldn't draw your gun unless you intend to use it. This just makes so much sense! |
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He took down the story. OK, so what happened? Was it in California?  Summary: Crazy guy yelled at soccer coach. Regular Guy decided to tell him to back off. Crazy guy didn't like being told what to do (imagine that ). Regular Guy got scared of crazy guy and walked away to his car in the parking lot and apparently never looked over his shoulder. As regular guy was putting his kid in his car seat crazy guy magically appeared behind regular guy and said that he wanted to have a chat. This scared regular guy because he was older, fat, had a bad back and had been beaten up a couple of times as a kid. Apparently he thought a masters degree in communication or something else that doesn't matter made him an expert in body language and picking up on voice cues so he just new crazy guy was going to destroy him (in the way he said he wanted to talk and how he was standing made this obvious to the expert). He pulled a gun (at the low ready mind you because he just wanted to scare the guy) and crazy guy walked off. Regular guy drove himself to the police station to tell them what happened and he got tossed in jail for pulling his gun on someone.
Moral of the story is that carrying concealed isn't a security blanket that you can just fall back on while making repeated bad decisions. If people in the gun and concealed carry community can look at this and say that he was being a dumbass then imagine what joe public who doesn't like guns will say. |
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He took down the story. OK, so what happened? Was it in California? Summary: Crazy guy yelled at soccer coach. Regular Guy decided to tell him to back off. Crazy guy didn't like being told what to do (imagine that ). Regular Guy got scared of crazy guy and walked away to his car in the parking lot and apparently never looked over his shoulder. As regular guy was putting his kid in his car seat crazy guy magically appeared behind regular guy and said that he wanted to have a chat. This scared regular guy because he was older, fat, had a bad back and had been beaten up a couple of times as a kid. Apparently he thought a masters degree in communication or something else that doesn't matter made him an expert in body language and picking up on voice cues so he just new crazy guy was going to destroy him (in the way he said he wanted to talk and how he was standing made this obvious to the expert). He pulled a gun (at the low ready mind you because he just wanted to scare the guy) and crazy guy walked off. Regular guy drove himself to the police station to tell them what happened and he got tossed in jail for pulling his gun on someone.
Moral of the story is that carrying concealed isn't a security blanket that you can just fall back on while making repeated bad decisions. If people in the gun and concealed carry community can look at this and say that he was being a dumbass then imagine what joe public who doesn't like guns will say. Man is this rich... |
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He took down the story. OK, so what happened? Was it in California? Summary: Crazy guy yelled at soccer coach. Regular Guy decided to tell him to back off. Crazy guy didn't like being told what to do (imagine that ). Regular Guy got scared of crazy guy and walked away to his car in the parking lot and apparently never looked over his shoulder. As regular guy was putting his kid in his car seat crazy guy magically appeared behind regular guy and said that he wanted to have a chat. This scared regular guy because he was older, fat, had a bad back and had been beaten up a couple of times as a kid. Apparently he thought a masters degree in communication or something else that doesn't matter made him an expert in body language and picking up on voice cues so he just new crazy guy was going to destroy him (in the way he said he wanted to talk and how he was standing made this obvious to the expert). He pulled a gun (at the low ready mind you because he just wanted to scare the guy) and crazy guy walked off. Regular guy drove himself to the police station to tell them what happened and he got tossed in jail for pulling his gun on someone.
Moral of the story is that carrying concealed isn't a security blanket that you can just fall back on while making repeated bad decisions. If people in the gun and concealed carry community can look at this and say that he was being a dumbass then imagine what joe public who doesn't like guns will say. Man is this rich... I don't understand your comment. Did I misrepresent the story? Or you just think that my version was funny? |
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I should have posted my comment with a better filter.
There were just a few assumptions you made that presented the guy as an idiot instead of someone who didn't want a guy to make good on his agressive behavior. The guy did have his kids to defend. Personally, I think it's a shame, at best, if a person can't speak up for what's right. While carrying or not. Did the guy really say something that justified a reasonable man to follow him and his kids to his car and act in a threatening manor? I don't know for certain 'cause I wasn't there (NONE of us were), but I would bet a 12 pack that it wasn't justified. I mean the bottom line is that some adult - with kids, a carreer, lot's to loose, etc.- was all to eager to brandish his superior power (larger, stronger, younger) over WORDS. I'll bet he didn't like having his power trumped any more than the fat Dad liked the guy threatening to do him physical harm with his kids right there. Quickly hop in the car, Pepper spray, Stun Gun, or Tazer... then call 911 and the agressor is the one paying the price for behaving like a high school kid. |
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I should have posted my comment with a better filter. There were just a few assumptions you made that presented the guy as an idiot instead of someone who didn't want a guy to make good on his agressive behavior. The guy did have his kids to defend. Personally, I think it's a shame, at best, if a person can't speak up for what's right. While carrying or not. Did the guy really say something that justified a reasonable man to follow him and his kids to his car and act in a threatening manor? I don't know for certain 'cause I wasn't there (NONE of us were), but I would bet a 12 pack that it wasn't justified. I mean the bottom line is that some adult - with kids, a carreer, lot's to loose, etc.- was all to eager to brandish his superior power (larger, stronger, younger) over WORDS. I'll bet he didn't like having his power trumped any more than the fat Dad liked the guy threatening to do him physical harm with his kids right there. Quickly hop in the car, Pepper spray, Stun Gun, or Tazer... then call 911 and the agressor is the one paying the price for behaving like a high school kid. Hypothetical question: If someone, let's say a chick, is out on a walking trail and a odd looking guy (like me) approaches her and she tazes/OC sprays/ stun guns, isn't that big time law suit time? Everyone here is saying to use "less leathal" force if YOUR LIFE IS NOT IN DANGER. Then would yu have any right to use any force at all? If you wake up in the night and see a shadowy figure standing in the doorway, should you automatically taze them, because it could be a bad guy, but also could be a family member? I admit, it's probably better to never take a life, but legally, do you have any right to do anything if you can't articulate immenent danger? Bottom line, AT LEAST this guy isn't facing murder charges, but would he really be scott free if he had tased or OCed a dude for asking to "speak to him"? Thad'd still be assault, no? 
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more sidespins of how this all started.. Man, this has gotten soooo far off track... I shouldn't have even tried. I knew better. I really did. No dude, it's cool. I just like to debate things. It helps me to grasp the whole "what an average person would think" thing. 
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Only pull your gun when there are absolutely no other options, and you intend to use it.
Additionally, if someone assaults you in any way and then moves away (thereby removing the threat ), you have to let them leave. - I know that is counter to what most of us feel after being hit, stabbed or shot, but to do anything else you become the aggressor and will be prosecuted as such. |
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My opinion, tell me where I am wrong:
Avoid places and situations that are potential trouble (anywhere with booze) MYOB The only time you should consider clearing leather is if the situation demands deadly force. If you clear leather weapon will fire. Weapon will clear leather ONLY if someones life is in imminent danger, not just bravado threatened or harrassed by idiot with an attitude. Brandashing is FOLLY. Fire away.... |
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40 yrs ago a business man was on the road between cities. Car with 4 or 5 guys come up on him, notice he's alone, and continually try to run him off the road for miles. They aren't gonna stop and it's many, many miles until the next town/city. Business man slams on his brakes and pulls to the side of the road. The car of guys slam on the brakes, and start backing up to him. Businessman pulls gun, steps out with door open, and aims it in their general direction. Car stops and the guys get out. Businessman fires a shot into the ditch. Guys get back into the car and speed away.
Businessman puts away his life-preserving emergency equipment and goes on to make it home to his family. If the guys had driven away at the businessman's 'brandishment', then obviously there was no need to shoot the gun. No one dies. No one goes to the hospital. Bad guys don't do him and harm. Bad guys SHOULD be realizing that if they play stupid games, they may win stupid prizes. Cops aren't involved. Lawyers aren't involved. Judges/Jury's aren't involved. Money doesn't fly out of the businessman's pocket. True story. IMO, absolute statements are folly. 99% of the time these brandishing statements are right on the money. And from a legal standpoint, I imagine it is necessary to make them sound like absolutes. But there's no way it's going to work for all of life's situations. In the OP's link, before it was taken down, there's no way any sane person can believe what was written accurately presented everything that went on in that incident. |
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40 yrs ago a business man was on the road between cities. Car with 4 or 5 guys come up on him, notice he's alone, and continually try to run him off the road for miles. They aren't gonna stop and it's many, many miles until the next town/city. Business man slams on his brakes and pulls to the side of the road. The car of guys slam on the brakes, and start backing up to him. Businessman pulls gun, steps out with door open, and aims it in their general direction. Car stops and the guys get out. Businessman fires a shot into the ditch. Guys get back into the car and speed away. Businessman puts away his life-preserving emergency equipment and goes on to make it home to his family. If the guys had driven away at the businessman's 'brandishment', then obviously there was no need to shoot the gun. No one dies. No one goes to the hospital. Bad guys don't do him and harm. Bad guys SHOULD be realizing that if they play stupid games, they may win stupid prizes. Cops aren't involved. Lawyers aren't involved. Judges/Jury's aren't involved. Money doesn't fly out of the businessman's pocket. True story. IMO, absolute statements are folly. 99% of the time these brandishing statements are right on the money. And from a legal standpoint, I imagine it is necessary to make them sound like absolutes. But there's no way it's going to work for all of life's situations. In the OP's link, before it was taken down, there's no way any sane person can believe what was written accurately presented everything that went on in that incident. The rest of the story: 5 guys in car call police. 5 witnesses against 1, Police pull guy over and hassle him ,Businessman gets charged with brandishing and discharging weapon (attempted murder) felony and thrown in prison. Brandishing was fail. I say this is how it will go down in today's society. Just turn on the TV right now and listen to the news people . They are painting these situations with the gun owner being the bad guy. The poor 5 guys that were shot at were just stopping to see if they could help the guy with his car trouble after all. See what I mean....its all about perspective, The threat must be real and imminent, there can be NO QUESTION that the use of a weapon was necessary. Businessman should of never stopped his car, he escalated the situation. 40 years ago it might of been OK in court, today I don't think it would fly. |
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This is why more people should pursue training.
When you are carrying a gun, the stakes of anything you get involved in go way up. Therefore it behooves you to avoid confrontation with anyone over anything as much as you are able to do so. It is also crucial to know when you can pull a gun and how to handle things after you've done so. |
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But none of that happend. Lot's of things go down without the Police being involved... even in today's day and age.
Good thing I use my brain to stay out of shit like this. I've kept my mouth shut plenty. I've walked away from things I've seen wich have all the makings of trouble. I don't associate with mouthy people who clench their fists at the drop of the hat. I'm very confident I'll know when to react with lethal methods. There's too much at stake for me, or anyone I'm around, to over-react. I still stand by this: Absolute statements like the ones made here are folly. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
40 yrs ago a business man was on the road between cities. Car with 4 or 5 guys come up on him, notice he's alone, and continually try to run him off the road for miles. They aren't gonna stop and it's many, many miles until the next town/city. Business man slams on his brakes and pulls to the side of the road. The car of guys slam on the brakes, and start backing up to him. Businessman pulls gun, steps out with door open, and aims it in their general direction. Car stops and the guys get out. Businessman fires a shot into the ditch. Guys get back into the car and speed away. Businessman puts away his life-preserving emergency equipment and goes on to make it home to his family. If the guys had driven away at the businessman's 'brandishment', then obviously there was no need to shoot the gun. No one dies. No one goes to the hospital. Bad guys don't do him and harm. Bad guys SHOULD be realizing that if they play stupid games, they may win stupid prizes. Cops aren't involved. Lawyers aren't involved. Judges/Jury's aren't involved. Money doesn't fly out of the businessman's pocket. True story. IMO, absolute statements are folly. 99% of the time these brandishing statements are right on the money. And from a legal standpoint, I imagine it is necessary to make them sound like absolutes. But there's no way it's going to work for all of life's situations. In the OP's link, before it was taken down, there's no way any sane person can believe what was written accurately presented everything that went on in that incident. The rest of the story: 5 guys in car call police. 5 witnesses against 1, Police pull guy over and hassle him ,Businessman gets charged with brandishing and discharging weapon (attempted murder) felony and thrown in prison. Brandishing was fail. I say this is how it will go down in today's society. Just turn on the TV right now and listen to the news people . They are painting these situations with the gun owner being the bad guy. The poor 5 guys that were shot at were just stopping to see if they could help the guy with his car trouble after all. See what I mean....its all about perspective, The threat must be real and imminent, there can be NO QUESTION that the use of a weapon was necessary. Businessman should of never stopped his car, he escalated the situation. 40 years ago it might of been OK in court, today I don't think it would fly. I agree with zhick. Kutu |
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Quoted:
40 yrs ago a business man was on the road between cities. Car with 4 or 5 guys come up on him, notice he's alone, and continually try to run him off the road for miles. They aren't gonna stop and it's many, many miles until the next town/city. Business man slams on his brakes and pulls to the side of the road. The car of guys slam on the brakes, and start backing up to him. Businessman pulls gun, steps out with door open, and aims it in their general direction. Car stops and the guys get out. Businessman fires a shot into the ditch. Guys get back into the car and speed away. Businessman puts away his life-preserving emergency equipment and goes on to make it home to his family. If the guys had driven away at the businessman's 'brandishment', then obviously there was no need to shoot the gun. No one dies. No one goes to the hospital. Bad guys don't do him and harm. Bad guys SHOULD be realizing that if they play stupid games, they may win stupid prizes. Cops aren't involved. Lawyers aren't involved. Judges/Jury's aren't involved. Money doesn't fly out of the businessman's pocket. True story. IMO, absolute statements are folly. 99% of the time these brandishing statements are right on the money. And from a legal standpoint, I imagine it is necessary to make them sound like absolutes. But there's no way it's going to work for all of life's situations. In the OP's link, before it was taken down, there's no way any sane person can believe what was written accurately presented everything that went on in that incident. A few differences in today's society: 1) We have cell phones and the first thing you should do is call the cops to CYA. They will be the ones arresting you (I know this is wierd because they were suppose to protect you and you get arrested for protecting yourself but it is what it is) so you should set up as much evidence in your favor as possible. 2) I don't know about 40 years ago but trying to run someone off of the road will be an assault charge at the very least and could be attempted homicide. This is plenty of reason to defend your life which makes it slightly different than the original issue. 3)Once you have called the cops and established that someone is trying to kill you with a car you are probably going to get instructions from them. Most likely to pull over. When they get out of the car you get out and yell (while being recorded by the police) that you are on the phone with the cops and that they are on the way. They keep coming tell them that you are armed and that you will defend yourself. They keep coming...prove it. All the while giving a play by play to the recorded line i.e. they are still coming or they are shouting blah blah blah or I THINK THAT THEY ARE GOING TO KILL ME. Today, in a situation like this there is too much time to collect evidence with cell phones, camera's etc to not take advantage of that for when you are on trial. If a mugger jumps you in an alley, you aren't going to have the luxury of time but if they guy is shoving a gun in your face and you defend yourself it will be pretty cut and dry. I think assuming that you won't be arrested leaves you vulnerable so stack the odds in your favor. If the cops show up and there are four people laying in the street between your car and theirs and you have been on the phone with the police the whole time so that what you tell them, what it looks like and what they can prove from your call all match up then your life will be a lot easier. My opinion on pulling a gun without the intent of using it is just setting yourself up for a shit storm of problems (this may be an absolute statement but in today's day in age I am comfortable saying that). The least of which is brandishing and the most serious of which is that you give a bad guy the time to realize that he should have his or their gun(s) out and you lose a gun fight because you thought that scaring an otherwise unreasonable person was the way to go. The gun is there to defend yourself when your life is in danger. If your life is in danger then use the gun for it's intended purpose. I look at it like this: If I needed to hammer in a nail I wouldn't grab the hammer and show it to the nail. I would hammer the nail until it was level. Likewise, if I needed to screw in a screw I wouldn't pull out my hammer and start swinging. Know which situation you are in and act accordingly. |
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Quoted:
This is why more people should pursue training. When you are carrying a gun, the stakes of anything you get involved in go way up. Therefore it behooves you to avoid confrontation with anyone over anything as much as you are able to do so. It is also crucial to know when you can pull a gun and how to handle things after you've done so. +1 We spend the money on the gun, the permit, the ammo, the holsters and not the proper training. I've seen so many permit holders that rain once, or twice a month at the range and think they have it all covered. These are the same people that will tell me they almost had to flash their gun at a guy on the highway for cutting them off. In the end the responsibility falls on each of us to know what we are doing and how to handle the flak of the anti-gun machine should we have to use these tools. Preparing is completely up to you, but this man drew his gun unprepared for the consequences and is now paying the price. Take this as a warning to anybody here that may be unprepared and do your case research, schedule a class, read a few books. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
This is why more people should pursue training. When you are carrying a gun, the stakes of anything you get involved in go way up. Therefore it behooves you to avoid confrontation with anyone over anything as much as you are able to do so. It is also crucial to know when you can pull a gun and how to handle things after you've done so. +1 We spend the money on the gun, the permit, the ammo, the holsters and not the proper training. I've seen so many permit holders that rain once, or twice a month at the range and think they have it all covered. These are the same people that will tell me they almost had to flash their gun at a guy on the highway for cutting them off. In the end the responsibility falls on each of us to know what we are doing and how to handle the flak of the anti-gun machine should we have to use these tools. Preparing is completely up to you, but this man drew his gun unprepared for the consequences and is now paying the price. Take this as a warning to anybody here that may be unprepared and do your case research, schedule a class, read a few books. +1 At the CCW class I took, it was drilled into our heads that you need to be prepared for your life to become a living hell if you survive an attack with a 'good shoot'. A minimum of $10k is going to fly out of your posession right off the bat. Then, the hell with truely begin. If you have a 'bad shoot'... your life will be over. In either event, stopping the attack without shooting the gun is preferred IMO. To the armchair quarterbacks. Cell phones don't always have reception and attackers aren't always the same physical size as the victim. And as such, even though not lethal, attempted rape - at the time of our CCW training- was considered a justifiable reason to clear leather. You're right. Being unwilling to take a punch isn't reason to bring your gun out of hiding. But I can guarantee you this... if you give me reason to believe that my wife and/or kids are in danger from your agressive behavior and I can't safely escape... my gun is coming out with the intent to use it if you cross just one more very, very thin line. And if I have the ability, the gun is coming out before the guy(s) can bind me up, ram the car door into my body as I'm scrambling in, or finally run me off the road and into a tree. Here in MO, we can justifyably kill an intruder of our home and auto. And for good reason. |