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Posted: 9/7/2010 7:25:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 7:28:42 PM EDT by Evile]
After reading some articles on people who used their guns in a defensive situation and ending up behind bars because they did, I am thinking about adding pepper spray or to my belt. Does any one carry pepper spray or something like that along with their guns and knives if so what do you use? It seems to me that if you tried to use less than lethal force before resorting to a firearm would look better in a jury's eyes vs going straight to the gun and shooting some one. This provided there is enough time and the situation called for it to use one before the other
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 7:47:55 PM EDT
If you are going to go that far look at a Taser. Pepper spray is nothing and a determined person can walk right through it. In boot they put us in a gas chamber full of CS Gas and have to endure that for 5 mins trust it seems like a lot longer. The point being two guys strolled right out like nothing had even happened to them other than a little red eye and slight cough. You need something that is going to make the person that is coming for you STOP what they are doing. The key is if you have to use force you are not using it to kill someone you are using it to stop them from doing whatever it is that they are doing. Some people when they get put in a situation where they have to defend themselves they say the wrong thing and that is how they get in trouble.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 8:38:15 PM EDT
Sorry, I disagree. OC spray and the tear gas are nothing alike. No OC spray is a manstopper immediately. actually it takes a second or to to kick in, when you begin to blink, but as soon as it does its god awful pain that takes the fight out of just about anybody. Theres always a few select people that are sooooo drunk they arnt effected by it as bad, but its not meant to be a man stopper. just a tool to help get control. Dont bother buying the over the countercrap at walmart. that stuff will just make the situation worse and do nothing like the last guy said. I know. just depends on the brand and strength you using. Were using 2% deftec as are most law enforcement out here, and its pretty bad, but they also make it in 5% and 7%, and im sure that stuff is even worse. Wouldnt wish this stuff on my worst enemy. FOX brand is the hottest on the market and our lawyers wont allow us to use it. When our instructors were testing brands to see what we could get away with they tried it. Gave them blisters on their eyelids.
Only HUGE problem with OC spray is almost every time its used your gonna catch a little of it also, even if your not in the wind. Shouldn't be as bad as the target though. Will also fill up a room and effect lots of other innocent bystanders and your looking at a lawsuit. So yeah a determined guy will walk right through the over the counter crap. Buy the police issue. And go to www.galls.com to see which kinds you want.
P.S. Dont but the foam kind. During our training almost everyone was able to wipe it off and throw it back in the instructors face. regular stream works fine.
Link Posted: 9/7/2010 9:37:58 PM EDT
2%+ OC SPRAY works great if you can get it IN the eye of the attacker. It disables the attacker for a short period of time (maybe only seconds) and you must take advantage of this window to either subdue the attacker or flee.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 12:35:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 12:36:49 AM EDT by Forgetfull]

Originally Posted By EdgecrusherXES_45:
If you are going to go that far look at a Taser. Pepper spray is nothing and a determined person can walk right through it. In boot they put us in a gas chamber full of CS Gas and have to endure that for 5 mins trust it seems like a lot longer. The point being two guys strolled right out like nothing had even happened to them other than a little red eye and slight cough. You need something that is going to make the person that is coming for you STOP what they are doing. The key is if you have to use force you are not using it to kill someone you are using it to stop them from doing whatever it is that they are doing. Some people when they get put in a situation where they have to defend themselves they say the wrong thing and that is how they get in trouble.

I also disagree. I don't know if you've ever been sprayed by a Good oc pepper spray but if you haven't you should try it. And I'm not talking about the crap they have in Walmart or Basspro.

Hell I have a half empty can of Fox I don't need if anyone wants to try it for themselves.

And as far as a Taser. The only useful ones are the ones that deploy the prongs, and even then one electrode can miss or if the perps is wearing a thicker jacket you're screwed. Hand held "stun guns" are useless too. You need to buy actual Taser brand to get any performance.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:05:20 AM EDT
interesting very interesting
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:20:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 3:30:45 AM EDT by America-first]
Evile you live in Florida with our stand your ground law and castle doctrine and where the full legal presumptions are on the side of the victim rather than the criminal.

You needn't worry about a good shoot going before a jury in Florida because although every shooting is thoroughly investigated, due to the legal presumptions on your side, prosecutors here have no leeway in the matte, you can't be charged if you acted within the law.

I wouldn't worry about carrying and employing less than lethal; from a legal standpoint I don't believe it'll make a positive difference here and IMO it may even complicate legal matters.

And in the worse case it might get you killed.

But I do recommend carrying the business card of an attorney who specializes in firearms law.

I also suggest getting a copy of this book by Jon Gutmacher if you don't already have one.

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 6:33:04 AM EDT
I used to carry a pocket clip can of Fox Labs. I need to order some more and start doing it again. There are definitely situations where you would be justified in the use of non-lethal where if the gun came out you’d be in the stink. I don’t look for fights nor do I want to participate in one unwillingly. But, if it’s throwing punches in a “fair” fist fight the gun doesn’t belong out of the holster.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 7:01:06 AM EDT
I do own a copy of that gun law book I need to read it again. Would probably be a good idea to have the spray for the times where you cant carry a gun, like going out for drinks obviously you dont want to be carrying a gun drunk but would still be nice to have some sort of defensive ability
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 7:25:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Evile:
I do own a copy of that gun law book I need to read it again. Would probably be a good idea to have the spray for the times where you cant carry a gun, like going out for drinks obviously you dont want to be carrying a gun drunk but would still be nice to have some sort of defensive ability


A drink....the gun never comes off. Drinking...there is a nice thread about knives running in this forum. IMHO self defense is about stopping the threat. Delaying the threat or pissing the threat off so that they may hurt someone else isn't exactly fixing the problem.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 10:35:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By kchustle:
Originally Posted By Evile:
I do own a copy of that gun law book I need to read it again. Would probably be a good idea to have the spray for the times where you cant carry a gun, like going out for drinks obviously you dont want to be carrying a gun drunk but would still be nice to have some sort of defensive ability


A drink....the gun never comes off. Drinking...there is a nice thread about knives running in this forum. IMHO self defense is about stopping the threat. Delaying the threat or pissing the threat off so that they may hurt someone else isn't exactly fixing the problem.

What about a naggy bum?
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 11:09:58 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Evile:
I do own a copy of that gun law book I need to read it again. Would probably be a good idea to have the spray for the times where you cant carry a gun, like going out for drinks obviously you dont want to be carrying a gun drunk but would still be nice to have some sort of defensive ability


You're right; spray does have it's place when carrying a lethal weapon isn't an option.

Here's some more detailed info on impact of the Florida statutes.

Some prosecutors and big city police commissioners hate these statutes because due to the legal presumptions which fall on your side, they act as "a block to prosecution" rather than a "defense" and deny them them the power to use their "judgment" to ruin your life God if forbid you are involved in a legitimate defensive shooting.

From the University of Miami Law Review:

http://www.law.miami.edu/studentorg/miami_law_review/issue_archive/pdf/vol63no1/MIA102.pdf
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 12:02:26 PM EDT
I would advise buying a can of 2% def-tec and testing it on yourself. If you dont feel the strength is enough go up a notch, but id be willing to bet youll find it worse than you ever thought. iv seen it make some pretty tough grown men cry and go blind. Put me out for 30 minutes. was atleste 10 before i could even get my eyes open. thats why when you see cops doing the gun grab resists after being sprayed, they have to take their hands and force their eyes open. it hurts....alot, and many fail it the first several times. And they made the stronger 5 % and 7% specifically to combat the drunks and druggies that dont seem to be effected by the 2% even though thats very rare.
id do it outside and have a bucket full of water ready. trust me, youll grow gills fast. put your head in there and blink underwater. also have a fan ready on high you can put your face in. Only time will heal your eyes. Be prepared for a second exposure later on when you shower, and bend over in the shower. sounds gay but you dont want that stuff running south and gettn on your.....yeah, it will burn and you will feel it. its kinda funny now, but you wont enjoy it at the time. Your face will feel like you have a bad sunburn for about a day, then youll be back to normal.
If you have kids or family avoid skin contact for a day. DO NOT USE ANY LOTION TO HELP YOUR SKIN. this will only bury the residue in deeper. i wouldnt run out and try fox brand on yourself right away. start small twice a week. eyes need time to heal.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 12:24:34 PM EDT
just wanted to add (im a jitterbug today, dont know enough about firearms to give advice but i know my oc products) if oc wasnt effective cops wouldnt carry it. especially if all it was gonna do is escalate a situation. In most states, if you spray a cop, he can almost always just go ahead and shoot you, if he can. This is because they know they will be incapacitated in a few seconds and may be in danger. Also run a high risk of loosing their weapon then. Anyone saying its not effective is likely talkn about the overthecounter crap young girls buy, thats only marketed anyway to be a mild irritant and make them feel secure. Dont have anything against tasers though, but they are VERY spendy and work better in warm climates where not a lot of clothes being worn. try tasering a guys wearing a leather jacket. good chance the prongs wont penetrate and nothing will happen unless you were smart enough to buy the longer prongs, which are almost only sold to law enforcement agencies that can provide proof of occupation and a department number via fax upon order. Stick to carrying your gun at all times, and if you feel u need it buy a can of oc. I hear kimber makes a new OC spray with a new delivery system that shoots out. Dont have any personal experience with it, but think its worth a look at.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 12:33:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By BigCheese84:
just wanted to add if oc wasnt effective cops wouldnt carry it.


OC spray is pretty much worthless in my experience, except for dispersing large crowds.
Even after you spray a guy, you still have to fight his ass, and when you are fighting him, the OC is messing with you as well.
However, for an armed citizen, I would say OC spray works - you don't have to stick around and effect an arrest, or anything like that.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 1:41:34 PM EDT
Yeah I plan on carrying my gun where I am allowed some places you just can't carry a gun or even a knife. Spray seems like it would be a good alternative when nothing else wil do
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 1:54:42 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Evile:
Does any one carry pepper spray or something like that along with their guns and knives if so what do you use?


OC Spray, Taser, Billy Club & 12Ga super sock
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 2:33:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 2:42:31 PM EDT by kchustle]
Originally Posted By Forgetfull:

Originally Posted By kchustle:
Originally Posted By Evile:
I do own a copy of that gun law book I need to read it again. Would probably be a good idea to have the spray for the times where you cant carry a gun, like going out for drinks obviously you dont want to be carrying a gun drunk but would still be nice to have some sort of defensive ability


A drink....the gun never comes off. Drinking...there is a nice thread about knives running in this forum. IMHO self defense is about stopping the threat. Delaying the threat or pissing the threat off so that they may hurt someone else isn't exactly fixing the problem.

What about a naggy bum?


Using pepper spray on someone who is only nagging you would be assault. Kind of a mute point if you want to stay on the right side of the law.

ETA: No one has brought up the fact that this shit disperses like crazy. I was across a basketball gym once as a kid when the cops used pepper spray and it burned my eyes across the gym. So, the possibility of getting it in your own eyes is real and you could end up accidentally getting other innocent bystanders. Also, if you are going somewhere that doesn't allow firearms or knives you probably aren't making it in with pepper spray.
Link Posted: 9/8/2010 3:29:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By kchustle:
Originally Posted By Forgetfull:

Originally Posted By kchustle:
Originally Posted By Evile:
I do own a copy of that gun law book I need to read it again. Would probably be a good idea to have the spray for the times where you cant carry a gun, like going out for drinks obviously you dont want to be carrying a gun drunk but would still be nice to have some sort of defensive ability


A drink....the gun never comes off. Drinking...there is a nice thread about knives running in this forum. IMHO self defense is about stopping the threat. Delaying the threat or pissing the threat off so that they may hurt someone else isn't exactly fixing the problem.

What about a naggy bum?


Using pepper spray on someone who is only nagging you would be assault. Kind of a mute point if you want to stay on the right side of the law.

ETA: No one has brought up the fact that this shit disperses like crazy. I was across a basketball gym once as a kid when the cops used pepper spray and it burned my eyes across the gym. So, the possibility of getting it in your own eyes is real and you could end up accidentally getting other innocent bystanders. Also, if you are going somewhere that doesn't allow firearms or knives you probably aren't making it in with pepper spray.


Naggy by grabbing at you and blocking your way.
Pepper spray is a lot less lethal than a knife and a lot easier to use. It's scary easy to kill or permanently disfigure someone with a small knife.

Link Posted: 9/8/2010 11:13:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2010 11:15:53 PM EDT by BigCheese84]
pretty sure i did mention already that almost every time oc is used it effects you also, just not as bad, and can affect innocent bystanders. that is the reason the weak stuff is marketed to young girls anyway. we all know theyre gonna spray some guy in a bar for copn a feel and its gonna clear the place out. In my experience, its never been an immediate manstopper, but hasnt failed me either. have used the def-tec twice in the last year, and while i get a little after burn, its always taken the aggression outta the guy. Its just meant to be a less lethal option and to gain an advantage. There are Never garuntees in anything.
I keep hearing on tv shows of people building a resistance to the stuff, but iv never actually met anyone that has and doubt that possibility. id be interested in hearing how a persons mucus membranes stop reacting to this stuff over time. Anyone with stories please share. Im not talkn about about a man willing himself through it, as Marines have to during boot camp. Im talkn about it flat out not affecting anyone.
PS, when marines will themselves through it, they know if they fail, it adds time to their basic training. Thatd be great motivation to walk through anything. And there also using the 2% stuff. And it wouldnt matter anyway. Were armed to defend our families and ourselves against the cowardly criminals and losers out there. Prolly wont run into a group of our finest soldiers with that kind of mental strenght out to do you harm. Atleste i hope not.........
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 3:08:09 AM EDT
I carry an ASP Palm Defender. It's a kubaton with my keys attached and has an OC canister in it. Some people are not affected by OC, but many are. I was sprayed at the academy and it had no effect and I was able to fight and shoot through the exercise we had. I'll take my chances and still carry it. I'm thinking of trying the OC guns that Kimber sells since it high powered. FOX also has some very strong OC. I'd love to carry an X26 taser off duty, but that's pushing it. I'd rather not carry a bat belt when I'm not working.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 11:00:53 AM EDT
Bat Belt?? Thats a good one. Iv also been sprayed with the def-tec oc and the sabre oc/cs. both were horrible, but the regular OC seems stronger. think the CS weakens that shit. Id buy their new stronger shit and never look back. what is it like 10 bucks??????
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 3:29:27 PM EDT
I carry OC fox labs brand. I personally know a guy that got cut bad in a knife fight. The funny thing is he thought it was a fist fight until he noticed all the blood after it was over. The guy hid the knife along the underside of his arm and stabbed/cut him in multiple locations. He has some very nasty scars all over the back of his head and neck from the attack. I have seen a lot of news reports about the same thing happening to people, so it is not entirely uncommon.

I do not think I could justify to a jury shooting someone just because they are about to attack me with no visible weapon. The OC gives me the option to hinder a attacker without shooting them if they are unarmed. I feel this option is worth the slight discomfort of carrying a can of spray that weighs less than a naa mini revolver.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 7:27:27 PM EDT
thats the hottest stuff u can get right? the fox brand? nasty shit i bet. id carry it.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 8:34:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RedneckRomeo:
thats the hottest stuff u can get right? the fox brand? nasty shit i bet. id carry it.

Fox labs is a good spray, but due to the lack of effective means to measure the effectiveness, and conflicting claims made by the different companies it is hard to say whose is best.

Fox labs uses 5.3 million SHU resin in a 2% OC mixture. It has a reputation for being very fast acting, but may not incapacitate for as long as a more concentrated spray.

Saber red another great spray is 10% OC, but only 2 million SHU resin is used. This should produce a longer lasting effect, at the cost of extra time to take effect.

Since I live in michigan 2% spray is the largest concentration of OC allowed so, I went with fox labs, probably would have anyways due to its fast acting reputation.

Link Posted: 9/9/2010 9:03:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Doug86:
Originally Posted By RedneckRomeo:
thats the hottest stuff u can get right? the fox brand? nasty shit i bet. id carry it.

Fox labs is a good spray, but due to the lack of effective means to measure the effectiveness, and conflicting claims made by the different companies it is hard to say whose is best.

Fox labs uses 5.3 million SHU resin in a 2% OC mixture. It has a reputation for being very fast acting, but may not incapacitate for as long as a more concentrated spray.

Saber red another great spray is 10% OC, but only 2 million SHU resin is used. This should produce a longer lasting effect, at the cost of extra time to take effect.

Since I live in michigan 2% spray is the largest concentration of OC allowed so, I went with fox labs, probably would have anyways due to its fast acting reputation.


2% OC can actually be better than a higher concentration OC. It acts faster and penetrates the membrane better. Also ingredients and purity have a lot to do with it. Same with the SHU rating, some manufactures advertise the base product shu, before packaging shu, and upon disbursement shu.

It is hard to determine which is best. Even people testing it on themselves aren't reliable since some people hold their breath and clench their eyes. This isn't a realistic test since if you're going to spray someone in real life they probably wont be clenching their eyes shut since you could they couldn't attack or defend themselves like that.


I can tell you personally that Fox cone completely over powered me for 10-15 minutes and 45 minutes after that I was still under the sink and in front of the fan. I wasn't high on meth or PCP though.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 9:50:28 PM EDT
you guys all sound like you been sprayed before. How do you guys know all this shit? is it on the label or something? what is shu?? and why isnt a higher percent even hotter. and how is fox only 2 percent and still the hottest? I guess it dont matter, im still takn my gun everywhere i go.
Link Posted: 9/9/2010 9:58:04 PM EDT
Dont worry man. Iv been sprayed 3 times this year. Once to get certified, once for firearms(we gotta get sprayed then hold off a gun grab for 90 seconds), and according to law here we can only carry what weve tested with, so when we switched to the deftec we had to do it over again. Shu is scovial heat units. Just a way to measure heat. All u need to know is its really ffffnnn hot. And yeah i believe 2 percent can be the best. oc takes a few seconds to kick in. the longer you spary someone, or the higher concetrate, it will take longer to work, but once it does its still bad. Dont call it a chemical though. Theres really no chemical in it. OC is JUST peppers. The hotter units like FOX just put more pepper in theirs. only chemical in it is the delivery pressure chemical, unless ur talkn OC/CS which has tear gas in it. Doesnt work as well though i think but thats my opinion.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 1:49:13 PM EDT
Getting Sprayed:
I have experienced OC and CS several times, misguided youth.
The first experience was the worst because you do not know what to expect.
Subsequent experiences can be less severe if you know how to react.

Spraying OC:
I do not know why, but some people are seemingly not affected, or they experience limited affect. I have sprayed two people directly in the face with 2% OC from a distance of less than 10 feet resulting in only a few seconds of incapacitation. Fortunately this is not the norm.

2% OC sprayed directly in the face (eyes and nose) is one of the best less than lethal options there is. "The effects of pepper spray are far more severe (than CS), including temporary blindness which last from 15-30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which last from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes."
“An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control” European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA). 1998.
Link Posted: 9/10/2010 2:07:22 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RedneckRomeo:
you guys all sound like you been sprayed before. How do you guys know all this shit? is it on the label or something? what is shu?? and why isnt a higher percent even hotter. and how is fox only 2 percent and still the hottest? I guess it dont matter, im still takn my gun everywhere i go.


This link has a pretty good explanationPepper Spray Effectiveness, but the condensed story is that, OC resin can be very refined OC or very impure. When a spray is advertised as being 2% OC, but that two percent is fairly pure like fox labs it can be hotter than a cheap spray that uses as much as 15% low grade OC resin. There is some evidence that the impurities in the lower grade resins can increase the time it takes for a spray to have effect.

I would never recommend not carrying a gun, but I think that pepper spray offers a effective means to end physical confrontations that do not meet the threshold for applying lethal force. Like I said before I know of a guy that got stabbed in a fight with a guy using a hidden knife. This and the fact that any fight can end in serious injury or death is the reason I carry a spray whenever I am out along with my gun.

Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:32:13 PM EDT
thats good advice. i think that sums up the oc spray. Dont know alot about the oc/cs or the tear gas though. But yeah the 2% i think is faster acting than the stronger stuff
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 6:32:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/11/2010 6:33:37 PM EDT by BigCheese84]
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 11:35:50 PM EDT
Thanks for all of the info, guys! I've been wanting to get my gf some quality OC since she goes to school in inner city Philly where there are nearby shootings bi-weekly and she only has a cheap OTC OC spray that I don't trust. Looks like she's getting a care package of Fox OC, 1 can to "test" and 1 can to carry.
Link Posted: 9/11/2010 11:58:24 PM EDT
Spray sucks to get hit with but a determined individual can and will fight through it. It does not incapacitate. Not only that but spray is a conversation distance tool and you will get it on yourself and it does suck.

It's a good tool though I think you need to assess your needs and decide whether you need to carry spray or an other less lethal device in addition to a firearm. Myself.. I keep the spray in a door pocket.
Link Posted: 9/12/2010 12:04:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2010 12:10:24 AM EDT by Forgetfull]

Originally Posted By jerz_subbie:
Thanks for all of the info, guys! I've been wanting to get my gf some quality OC since she goes to school in inner city Philly where there are nearby shootings bi-weekly and she only has a cheap OTC OC spray that I don't trust. Looks like she's getting a care package of Fox OC, 1 can to "test" and 1 can to carry.

I don't know what UPS shipping would be but I have some Fox that I've rotated out of my carry stash yet is still well with in the "best by" date if you wanted to just pay the shipping on it for testing. If you wanna check shipping cost I'm in zip code 85257.

edit: Saw you were back east. Shipping would probably cost as much as a new can there.
Link Posted: 9/15/2010 10:11:34 AM EDT
I've been carrying spray for over 15 years. I've used it at least 5 times and seen others use it. In my experience it is the spray pattern more than anything else that makes a difference. The stream pattern is least effective. It doesn't vaporize and get into the respiratory tract, so you only get burning and temporary blindess if you get a good shot to the face. If the person sees it coming and shields their eyes it won't work very well. The advantage is less cross contamination and more distance. A fogger pattern is the most effective, but it definitely gets into the air. I've cleared an entire bar with it. Bodyguard used to make a great 1.5 oz. fogger model, but the button was really difficult to press. It would literally blow a person's hair back. I haven't seen it for years. The cone pattern is almost as good as the fogger. It works better than the stream if the person manages to keep it out of their eyes and it will affect the resperatory tract. I am currently issued cone pattern Bodyguard LE-10 1.5 oz. Good stuff. Fox Labs makes a good product also. If you are going to carry pepper spray get a police model and not the civilian models. A disadvantage of pepper spray is that is usually takes 10 to 20 seconds to have a good effect. You have to realize that when you use it.

A Taser is nearly instantly effective, but they are expensive and essentially a one shot weapon.
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