AK Sponsor
Posted: 7/1/2011 1:09:30 AM EDT
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Let me just start off by saying I love Arsenal AK's. Some of the nicest available in fit and finish.
BUT....I cannot figure out for the life of me, why Arsenal insisted on putting AK-74 style brakes on their 7.62x39 rifles too???? They also are putting AK-74 style furniture on them...? I recently picked up a SGL-21 and am getting quotes in the range of $300-$400 to have the barrel removed/threaded/re-installed and the FSB's swapped out....  I understand the 74 brakes are more effective, but who doesn't want a traditional slant brake on their 47 if they're paying the extra money for an authentic Russian AK?
If anyone has any suggestions, or knows of any 'smiths who might be able to tackle such a project for a reasonable price PLEASE let me know. I believe if the barrel could be threaded without having to be removed, it might be cost effective enough to tackle. |
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It's really not a variant, it's standard production now for about 20 years. AKM pattern rifles have been out of production for around 30 years because they were replaced by the AK74, since the early 90's the majority of AK's built in Russia have been on the 74M pattern rifle.
SGL21's are AK100 series...basically a 74M chambered in 7.62 and renamed AK103 as mentioned. The 74 brake is standard issue and has been for a long time. Z |
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Seriously, buy a 7.62x39 Saiga and convert it yourself - same friggen thing at half the price. Actually, if you do a full conversion, you're not really saving that much money. I actually priced it for a 5.45 on a $350 Centerfire Saiga. Literally, on the parts alone, buying a SGL-31 would be cheaper. And that's assuming one has a drill press (Saiga barrel bits are clamped on, not pinned, right?) and the tools to thread the muzzle. |
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I'm okay with the break, but not a fan of the butt stock. The groove was made to identify between the 47 and 74 by both sight and touch. I wish they would have made it with a non-grooved butt stock. But I do love my 21!!!! Or to offset the weight of the '74 brake. |
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I'm okay with the break, but not a fan of the butt stock. The groove was made to identify between the 47 and 74 by both sight and touch. I wish they would have made it with a non-grooved butt stock. But I do love my 21!!!! Mr. Kalashnikov stated the purpose of the groove was to reduce the overall weight of the rifle. It had nothing to do with identifying the AK-74 from AK-47. It also had nothing to do with offsetting the weight of the muzzle brake. The rifle had a weight spec and it was over that spec so they found the easiest way to fix that was to make lightening cuts in the wood butt stock. True story. |
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I'm okay with the break, but not a fan of the butt stock. The groove was made to identify between the 47 and 74 by both sight and touch. I wish they would have made it with a non-grooved butt stock. But I do love my 21!!!! Mr. Kalashnikov stated the purpose of the groove was to reduce the overall weight of the rifle. It had nothing to do with identifying the AK-74 from AK-47. It also had nothing to do with offsetting the weight of the muzzle brake. The rifle had a weight spec and it was over that spec so they found the easiest way to fix that was to make lightening cuts in the wood butt stock. True story. What 8 oz hunk of metal do you suppose pushed the weight of the rifle of the limit that isn't found on the '47? |
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Your answer is just a guess because no where can you find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov that confirms what you say.
On the other hand i met the man years ago and was able to talk with him. The reason for the AK-74 being over the weight spec was the fact that the barrel's O.D. was the same as the AKM but the I.D., bore, was smaller because of the new caliber. This is what i was told. |
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Seriously, buy a 7.62x39 Saiga and convert it yourself - same friggen thing at half the price. a saiga Basic total conversion. including FSB, Gas tube retaining ring will cost you almost the same as new Arsenal SGL21 "Parts only !!!! " Free labor I have 2 Saiga 7.62x39 and a Saiga 308 . and have run the cost spread sheet. I wish i have run the Conversion parts and cost spread sheet before buying. But it is too late now . i might as well bite the bullet. |
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Archangel, I have been in the shoes you are standing in with regard to wanting a Saiga AKM clone. At the time I did mine, the SGL-20s hadn't been introduced yet, let alone the 21s and 31s. In December 2008, during the midst of the panic, I managed to find a new Saiga 7.62x39 for a very reasonable $299 at a local pawn shop. Because I simply cannot leave things be, and because buying a WASR or similar AKM clone was not unique enough for my semi-OCD ways, I decided to have my Saiga converted to AKM configuration.
Spending the better part of the next 6 to 7 months gathering parts, I managed to acquire late AKM era Soviet parts necessary for my project (FSB, GB, receiver cover), along with a Russian sight leaf and gas tube. Other than compliance parts, the only thing that is not Russian on the weapon is a Romy HG retainer. I sent the rifle off to Dave Trevino at Cold War Classics (one of the best). For $120 he removed the Saiga barrel parts and installed the AKM ones. This required welding the old gas port closed and drilling a new one for the 45 degree GB. He also engraved the trunion with the Izhmash logo. When I got the rifle back, I threaded the barrel with a kit from Precise Innovations (coincidentally, I am selling mine on the EE right now). I still need to have the holes from the conversion welded, as well as the trigger guard, but for now I am happy. I would advise you to talk to Dave at CWC and see what kind of deal he can give you. Pics: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/0715110319.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/IMG_1291.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/IMG_1296.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/mms_picture-1.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/mms_picture_2.jpg |
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I'm okay with the break, but not a fan of the butt stock. The groove was made to identify between the 47 and 74 by both sight and touch. I wish they would have made it with a non-grooved butt stock. But I do love my 21!!!! Mr. Kalashnikov stated the purpose of the groove was to reduce the overall weight of the rifle. It had nothing to do with identifying the AK-74 from AK-47. It also had nothing to do with offsetting the weight of the muzzle brake. The rifle had a weight spec and it was over that spec so they found the easiest way to fix that was to make lightening cuts in the wood butt stock. True story. Sorry it took so long to get back in here. Works been crazy. Also sory, but you're wrong about it having nothing to do with identifing the rifle. In addition to the weight-reduction cuts on each side of the buttstock, these also function to distinguish externally by sight and touch between the AKM and the AK-74, preventing the accidental loading of the wrong ammunition in the AK-74. |
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Archangel, I have been in the shoes you are standing in with regard to wanting a Saiga AKM clone. At the time I did mine, the SGL-20s hadn't been introduced yet, let alone the 21s and 31s. In December 2008, during the midst of the panic, I managed to find a new Saiga 7.62x39 for a very reasonable $299 at a local pawn shop. Because I simply cannot leave things be, and because buying a WASR or similar AKM clone was not unique enough for my semi-OCD ways, I decided to have my Saiga converted to AKM configuration. Spending the better part of the next 6 to 7 months gathering parts, I managed to acquire late AKM era Soviet parts necessary for my project (FSB, GB, receiver cover), along with a Russian sight leaf and gas tube. Other than compliance parts, the only thing that is not Russian on the weapon is a Romy HG retainer. I sent the rifle off to Dave Trevino at Cold War Classics (one of the best). For $120 he removed the Saiga barrel parts and installed the AKM ones. This required welding the old gas port closed and drilling a new one for the 45 degree GB. He also engraved the trunion with the Izhmash logo. When I got the rifle back, I threaded the barrel with a kit from Precise Innovations (coincidentally, I am selling mine on the EE right now). I still need to have the holes from the conversion welded, as well as the trigger guard, but for now I am happy. I would advise you to talk to Dave at CWC and see what kind of deal he can give you. Pics: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/0715110319.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/IMG_1291.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/IMG_1296.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/mms_picture-1.jpg http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m274/ncthorn/mms_picture_2.jpg Looks Awesome!! Nice work 
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Sorry it took so long to get back in here. Works been crazy. Also sory, but you're wrong about it having nothing to do with identifing the rifle. In addition to the weight-reduction cuts on each side of the buttstock, these also function to distinguish externally by sight and touch between the AKM and the AK-74, preventing the accidental loading of the wrong ammunition in the AK-74.[/quote] No, i'm sorry to bust your bubble and i'm not trying to be an ass but you're wrong. Do you really think that Russian soldiers were so poorly trained or so dumb that they didn't know what ammo their rifle fired and that they needed an groove in the stock so they'd know ? Do you really think that the genius, M.T. Kalashnikov, said to himself, " i must put an groove in the stock so soldiers can tell an AK-74 from an AKM." ? When a unit was refitted with AK-74's their AKM's were taken away, they didn't have units using two different caliber rifles. So you see it would be impossible for them to use the wrong ammo. Find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov that states your case, you can't because the groove in the stock was put their to reduce the overall weight of the AK-74. There is no other reason why the groove is there and M.T. Kalashnikov stated that not long ago. I don't watch tv but i even found an show about the AK on the History channel where M.T. Kalashnikov was asked about the purpose of the groove, he laughs and says. " We heard the West come up with all kinds of reasons for the groove in the AK-74 stock but it was put their simply to reduce the overall weight of the rifle because the AK-74 weighed more than what the specs called for. " |
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Sorry it took so long to get back in here. Works been crazy. Also sory, but you're wrong about it having nothing to do with identifing the rifle. In addition to the weight-reduction cuts on each side of the buttstock, these also function to distinguish externally by sight and touch between the AKM and the AK-74, preventing the accidental loading of the wrong ammunition in the AK-74.[/quote] No, i'm sorry to bust your bubble and i'm not trying to be an ass but you're wrong. Do you really think that Russian soldiers were so poorly trained or so dumb that they didn't know what ammo their rifle fired and that they needed an groove in the stock so they'd know ? Do you really think that the genius, M.T. Kalashnikov, said to himself, " i must put an groove in the stock so soldiers can tell an AK-74 from an AKM." ? When a unit was refitted with AK-74's their AKM's were taken away, they didn't have units using two different caliber rifles. So you see it would be impossible for them to use the wrong ammo. Find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov that states your case, you can't because the groove in the stock was put their to reduce the overall weight of the AK-74. There is no other reason why the groove is there and M.T. Kalashnikov stated that not long ago. I don't watch tv but i even found an show about the AK on the History channel where M.T. Kalashnikov was asked about the purpose of the groove, he laughs and says. " We heard the West come up with all kinds of reasons for the groove in the AK-74 stock but it was put their simply to reduce the overall weight of the rifle because the AK-74 weighed more than what the specs called for. " [/quote] I addition there is a mag well diminition difference the 74' is narrower that a 47' mag should not fit in a 74'. |
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No, i'm sorry to bust your bubble and i'm not trying to be an ass but you're wrong. Do you really think that Russian soldiers were so poorly trained or so dumb that they didn't know what ammo their rifle fired and that they needed an groove in the stock so they'd know ? Do you really think that the genius, M.T. Kalashnikov, said to himself, " i must put an groove in the stock so soldiers can tell an AK-74 from an AKM." ? When a unit was refitted with AK-74's their AKM's were taken away, they didn't have units using two different caliber rifles. So you see it would be impossible for them to use the wrong ammo. Find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov that states your case, you can't because the groove in the stock was put their to reduce the overall weight of the AK-74. There is no other reason why the groove is there and M.T. Kalashnikov stated that not long ago. I don't watch tv but i even found an show about the AK on the History channel where M.T. Kalashnikov was asked about the purpose of the groove, he laughs and says. " We heard the West come up with all kinds of reasons for the groove in the AK-74 stock but it was put their simply to reduce the overall weight of the rifle because the AK-74 weighed more than what the specs called for. " Well,we'll just have to agree to disagree. Athough from what I've found we could both be right. While I can't find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov himself, I've found the following. From Gun Wiki," There is also an "identification groove" cut or molded into each side of the buttstock, which allows the user to tell by touch that the weapon is an AK-74" http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AK-74]http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AK-74 From Wikipedia,"In addition, there are weight-reducing lightening cuts on each side of the buttstock. These also function to distinguish externally by sight and touch between the AKM and the AK-74, preventing the accidental loading of the wrong ammunition in the AK-74." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74 In the book,The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, by Jo Poyer,in CH 1, pg. 13, Fig. 1-12, "A groove was cut or molded into both sides of all 5.45 AK-74s to differentiate those rifls from the 7.62 AK series". |
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No, i'm sorry to bust your bubble and i'm not trying to be an ass but you're wrong. Do you really think that Russian soldiers were so poorly trained or so dumb that they didn't know what ammo their rifle fired and that they needed an groove in the stock so they'd know ? Do you really think that the genius, M.T. Kalashnikov, said to himself, " i must put an groove in the stock so soldiers can tell an AK-74 from an AKM." ? When a unit was refitted with AK-74's their AKM's were taken away, they didn't have units using two different caliber rifles. So you see it would be impossible for them to use the wrong ammo. Find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov that states your case, you can't because the groove in the stock was put their to reduce the overall weight of the AK-74. There is no other reason why the groove is there and M.T. Kalashnikov stated that not long ago. I don't watch tv but i even found an show about the AK on the History channel where M.T. Kalashnikov was asked about the purpose of the groove, he laughs and says. " We heard the West come up with all kinds of reasons for the groove in the AK-74 stock but it was put their simply to reduce the overall weight of the rifle because the AK-74 weighed more than what the specs called for. " Well,we'll just have to agree to disagree. Athough from what I've found we could both be right. While I can't find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov himself, I've found the following. From Gun Wiki," There is also an "identification groove" cut or molded into each side of the buttstock, which allows the user to tell by touch that the weapon is an AK-74" http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AK-74]http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AK-74 From Wikipedia,"In addition, there are weight-reducing lightening cuts on each side of the buttstock. These also function to distinguish externally by sight and touch between the AKM and the AK-74, preventing the accidental loading of the wrong ammunition in the AK-74." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74 In the book,The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, by Jo Poyer,in CH 1, pg. 13, Fig. 1-12, "A groove was cut or molded into both sides of all 5.45 AK-74s to differentiate those rifls from the 7.62 AK series". Look M.T.Kalashnikov, you know the man that invented the AK, clearly stated several times what the groove was all about. The info. you posted above means nothing because it's from people that are doing nothing more than guessing or making it up as they go. Wikipedia is well known for being full of it and Joe Poyer had absolutely nothing to do with the design of the AK-47 or AK-74. Enough already, you can post this nonsense over and over, it's misinformation and simply not true. |
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No, i'm sorry to bust your bubble and i'm not trying to be an ass but you're wrong. Do you really think that Russian soldiers were so poorly trained or so dumb that they didn't know what ammo their rifle fired and that they needed an groove in the stock so they'd know ? Do you really think that the genius, M.T. Kalashnikov, said to himself, " i must put an groove in the stock so soldiers can tell an AK-74 from an AKM." ? When a unit was refitted with AK-74's their AKM's were taken away, they didn't have units using two different caliber rifles. So you see it would be impossible for them to use the wrong ammo. Find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov that states your case, you can't because the groove in the stock was put their to reduce the overall weight of the AK-74. There is no other reason why the groove is there and M.T. Kalashnikov stated that not long ago. I don't watch tv but i even found an show about the AK on the History channel where M.T. Kalashnikov was asked about the purpose of the groove, he laughs and says. " We heard the West come up with all kinds of reasons for the groove in the AK-74 stock but it was put their simply to reduce the overall weight of the rifle because the AK-74 weighed more than what the specs called for. " Well,we'll just have to agree to disagree. Athough from what I've found we could both be right. While I can't find a quote from M.T. Kalashnikov himself, I've found the following. From Gun Wiki," There is also an "identification groove" cut or molded into each side of the buttstock, which allows the user to tell by touch that the weapon is an AK-74" http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AK-74]http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AK-74 From Wikipedia,"In addition, there are weight-reducing lightening cuts on each side of the buttstock. These also function to distinguish externally by sight and touch between the AKM and the AK-74, preventing the accidental loading of the wrong ammunition in the AK-74." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AK-74 In the book,The AK-47 and AK-74 Kalashnikov Rifles and Their Variations, by Jo Poyer,in CH 1, pg. 13, Fig. 1-12, "A groove was cut or molded into both sides of all 5.45 AK-74s to differentiate those rifls from the 7.62 AK series". Look M.T.Kalashnikov, you know the man that invented the AK, clearly stated several times what the groove was all about. The info. you posted above means nothing because it's from people that are doing nothing more than guessing or making it up as they go. Wikipedia is well known for being full of it and Joe Poyer had absolutely nothing to do with the design of the AK-47 or AK-74. Enough already, you can post this nonsense over and over, it's misinformation and simply not true. No need to be a dick. Just letting you know what I found. Please, feel free to direct me to where I can find the direct quotes you speak of. As of right now all I have is your typed "he said". |
| Also, in the last two issues of G&A's 'Book of the AK-47', this ex-Spetsnaz soldier recounts his experiences in the Spetsnaz. Both times IIRC he recounts units being equipped with both AK-74 rifles and AKMs, mainly because the AK-74s had yet to have suppressors developed for them, while the AKMs did. |
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"The right side of the SLR-106FR buttstock sent to us for test and evaluation has the same longitudinal, almost 4-inch groove found on both sides of the original AK74’s laminated wood buttstock and carried over onto the black polymer buttstocks of the Russian AK 100 series rifles. Very few know its real function. Speculation about the reason for these grooves has been rampant ever since photographs of the AK74 first appeared in the West. Most suggestions for their real
purpose have bordered on the ridiculous. It has been proposed that they were to identify 5.45x39mm caliber AKs from those of 7.62x39mm caliber when they were placed together in rifle racks in a barracks. It’s not likely that members of the same combat unit would be armed with Kalashnikovs in two different calibers. It has also been said that the grooves were designed so the rifle could more easily be grasped by the buttstock when shooting through the firing port of an armored fighting vehicle. That’s also nonsense. Mikhail Kalashnikov himself told me what they signified in 1994 on the occasion of his 75th birthday celebration. When the first prototypes of the AK74 were assembled they were little more than re-barreled AKMs. To fit everything onto the barrel, the outer diameter of the AKM barrel was retained. As the 5.45mm bores were smaller than the 7.62mm bores, the end result was a heavier rifle, the very reverse of what the Soviet Army was seeking. As a consequence, the AK74 prototype was rejected with instructions to lighten the package. Kalashnikov’s design bureau tried every possible means to drop weight off the rifle including, as incredible as it sounds, placing lightening grooves on each side of the buttstock. Thus the mystery of the AK74 stock grooves is solved, although some, always looking for a more complex explanation, will not believe it." Peter G. Kokalis, from an article in Shotgun News reviewing the SLR-106FR http://www.arsenalinc.com/usa/imgs/articles/slr106/slr106.pdf |
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