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Posted: 12/7/2006 12:29:34 PM EDT
| I have an SLR 105R that I bought NIB. I didn't notice until later that it doesn't have any of the typical Arsenal markings on the left side of the receiver. No caliber, model, Arsenal or Made in Bulgaria stampings. So I thought this was odd so I call Arsenal to see if this is unusual and they want me to ship it to them, on their dime, so they can mark the receiver. The gentleman said it is required by law to have the markings. So now I'm bummed that I got to send it in. With my luck they'll fuck it up somehow. Anyways, could I get in trouble for owning it or would it be all on them? |
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Don't send it back. Keep it like it is. You aren't the first one to receive a rifle like this as this is the second post here concerning an unmarked Arsenal SLR-105. Let me check mine when I get home and see if the serial number is marked on the receiver anywhere like on the trunnion, bolt etc... Some of the import rifles never had receivers marked with serial #, only trunnions. If you send it back for marking they may mess it up and then you are screwed. |
That is what I'm thinking. I really don't want to send it away...I'll have nightmares about it tonight I'm sure. If they offered to deban it for me to compensate for my troubles then I'd have to send it in. |
Check the Chinese rifles. Serial number on trunnion on a large number of them. You have no duty at all to send in a rifle because Arsenal tells you to. It isn't your problem. I'll check mine tonight when I get home from work. If it doesn't have a serial number on the receiver then yours would just be missing the imported from Bulgaria and Arsenal of Nevada stuff that takes up the entire receiver on the left side. I'll see if my receiver is serialed and where. I also check my other AK rifles to see where and how they are marked as to serial number. A separate receiver bought from a manufacturer to complete a build is something totally different as in that case the receiver is sold as a firearm and must be serial numbered. Only the manufacturer can move the serial number. A person who works on firearms who through the process of repair destroys the serial number can supposedly remark them but I suppose there is paperwork involved. MAC'S SHOOTIN' IRONS restoration covered this on a forum when a firearm being coated had the serial obliterated. There is no duty for you to maintain the billboard engravings on a firearm other than the serial number. The manufacturer may be required to put their crap on a receiver but there are plenty of builders who fill them in with welds when they are building up certain clones. Show me where it is illegal to alter them other than a serial number. |
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OK....I got home and checked six (6) of my imported rifles. A Bulgarian SLR-105R, a SAR-1, a SAR-2, a SAIGA .308, a SAIGA 7.62x39 and a Chinese BWK-92. Guess what? Not one of them has a serial number on any receiver. The serial numbered parts of these stamped rifles is the trunnion. A milled factory AK will have the serial number on the receiver. I have pistol slides that were imported from Bulgaria that were modified with Novak sights and the gunsmith removed all import marks and replaced them with his own rollmark. The pistols no longer have the C.A.I. markings. The serial numbers are on the pistol frames, the import marks are on the slides (or were). Contact some of the major builders and ask their opinions. I am almost positive that Ted Marshall does remarking as long as the serial number on rifles is not messed with. The serial number should not be removed on the trunnions of imported rifles but when using a parts kit to build on a serial numbered US receiver you can then remark the parts kit trunnion. Non-import marked firearms are always more desirable and worth more. I collect Makarov pistols and those without the billboards are highly sought after. Do not be stupid and send that rifle back to Arsenal to have a billboard put on the side. There is no requirement for you the owner to have that information put on your rifle if it didn't come that way. There is no requirement to keep that info on a receiver if you don't want it there as far as I am aware. The rifle in the condition you have now would be a great example of a military Bulgarian AK-74 clone (semi auto of course) if you change out the gas block and FSB for ones that have the lugs and the threading on the FSB. The rifle is serial numbered and that is all that is required for you. If you want to take the word of the Arsenal people it is your loss. Their screw up is just a benefit for you. I asked them about a fixed stock SLR-106 at the SAR show and the rep kept pointing me to the sidefolding stock version. I kept asking if they would make them in fixed stock and he kept saying the sidefolder was fixed. Some of you other guys check your imported stamped AK rifles and see where the serial numbers are. If someone can prove me wrong then post it CJFirefly, I have an Arsenal SLR-105R that has been shot maybe twice. If you just have to have a marked one then keep yours in as good of condition and I will trade you even up for mine when I get back to Michigan this summer, I own land up in Cheboygan county. 
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Well thanks for the replies guys, especially you Mak. I called Arsenal back today and made up an excuse to delay them. I had to call today because they had already issued an order for UPS to come and pick it up. The Arsenal rep. mentioned that if I do not send it in to be marked they have to notify the ATF. I talked to some FFL holders after speaking with Arsenal and they recommended that I send it back because it is illegal without the markings. I haven't seen the regulation in writing or anything to confirm it, though. I think what I will do is try to bargain with them that if I send it in they have to deban it and then cross my fingers that it comes out okay. Again this is not what I ideally want to do but I don't want to get into any trouble over the issue. I think what I will do is call the ATF on Monday before I make any final decisions. ps My grandpa lives up on Hammond bay, in between Cheboygan and Rodgers City. I'm up there all the time in the summer riding dirt bikes and shooting. If you want to sell the Arsenal when your in town let me know! |
Do you still have the receipt and/or any paper work from the dealer? (assuming it wasn't a private transfer)
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My property is between Indian River and Wolverine. Houses in Indian River also. Don't let them give you a bunch of crap. Don't call an FFL as they are the ones mentioned here that screw up and call the ATF on guys that the FFL receives a perfectly legal firearm for. Call an AK builder off of the boards and get info from them. Call Derek of AZEXARMs, Mario of PoHF or a moderator here -Duke-Nukem- (Missouri Custom Armament) and get their input. Hell, if you want to get the ATF involved you call them and tell them Arsenal is shipping out improperly marked rifles. You have a receipt for the rifle, right. You bought it in good faith, it has a serial number on it as I have explained to you. I can take pictures of all 6 imported AK type rifles I have and show you the serial numbers are not on the receivers but on the trunnions. I can't believe no one else has responded where the serial numbers are on their imported rifles. There is no requirement for you, the end purchaser to maintain the import engraving or manufacturers name on a firearm that I know of, only the serial number. Tell UPS you have nothing for pickup, don't answer the door and don't take calls from Arsenal. If you get a call from the ATF have them come and check the rifle out, show them your receipt, if the rifle is taken sue the hell out of Arsenal. Here, I'll explain it in a bit clearer method. You have a Romanian AK parts kit you want to build into a rifle. You don't want to buy a receiver. You get an AK flat which has no serial number or manufacturer's information on it at all. You bend that flat into a 100% receiver and heat treat it. You build your rifle on that unmarked receiver. You now have a rifle with no markings what-so-ever on the receiver. Is this rifle legal for you to own? If anyone calls the ATF on you for having a rifle with no serial number or manufacturer's information on it are you going to be arrested? No, the rifle is legal for you to own and have in your possession. You aquired it legally and have broken no laws. Just like you legally aquired the SLR-105R, there was no intent on your part to break a law, you legally purchased the rifle, if you purchased it new then a check of your background was done to insure that you were able to lawfully possess the firearm. You have committed no crime and your possession of a semiauto rifle with no import marks is not prohibitted. Firearms legally brought into the United States as war bringbacks also have no importation marks. These firearms are more valuable to collectors for just that reason. The only entity that may have broken any law is Arsenal. Your first action should not have been calling them and hearing that they are threatening you with calling the ATF makes me want to not ever purchase anything from them again. |
Another instance of an FFL dealer or Manufacturer (Arsenal) threatening to call the BATF on a firearms owner when it is the dealer/manufacturer who screwed up. I sent a link of this to -Duke-Nukem- to see if he has any knowledge or opinion as to whether the BATF will come knocking at your door because Arsenal neglected to mark a rifle with import information before shipping it out to the original dealer and first owner. Here is a Makarov pistol slide with the Century Arms International import billboard on the right side of the slide.  Here is a customized slide from when Geoff Beast was doing his slide conversions with Novak sights and the import markings removed from the slide and replaced with Beast Enterprises. Does this make the pistol the slide is installed on due to the fact that all import markings are removed illegal? The serial number remains as it is on the frame. I guess the jack booted thugs from the BATF will be knocking at my door.  An Arsenal SLR-105R's serial number is on the trunnion, the import markings are on the receiver as pictured here on one of my rifles. No serial number will be found on the receiver.       Import markings on my Chinese rifle.  The importer's scratch marks. If the rifle is abrasively blasted and reblued or parked and molycoated the surface markings will be removed as they barely cut through the bluing.  No serial number is marked on the receiver of this rifle. |
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My first impression is that if the gun has a serial number and was properly logged out of Arsenal's books, then its not truly an unmarked rifle at all, and the papertrail required by BATFE has been done. So our question is, how legal is a rifle that is partially marked? Well I believe that the requirements to mark the receiver are incumbent upon the manufacturer, not the subsequent possessor. So I think even if the gun is out of compliance, Firefly is ok and Arsenal is not ok, which would be why they really REALLY want it back. I would inform Arsenal that you consider the rifle to have a possibility of extraordinary collectors value in the future, and that you are contacting BATFE tech branch in writing to ask for a letter certifying that it is legal for you to possess the rifle. My guess is they will either send you such a letter or direct you to return the rifle to the manufacturer so it can be brought into compliance. They will NOT send black helicopters, don't worry about that, especially if you are inquiring in good faith about the legality of your gun. |
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Guys I don't think they are worried about the serial number. I think they are woirried about NO importer -Arsenal Inc, Las Vegas NV NO Model - SLR 105 NO country of origin - made Bulgaria NO caliber - 5.45 ATF will have Arsenals ass over that if they call them and don't "aquire it" from you. I think the caliber marking is a safety/lawsuit issue as itself......223 in a 5.45 = hospital Personnaly I wouldn't want to let it go as it's a much more collectable version.... To cover your own ass you could Form 1 the thing? Like you made it from a kit.....can't sell it that way but for the mean time you could keep it.....just say you destroyed the original reciever and rebuilt it on a flat.... just a thought. |
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I just speed read this so I hope I don't make a redundant post: The rifle has a serial number on the trunion, as all (I think) imported stamped Bulgarian's do. This is one reason why you "shouldn't" permanently separate the trunion from the receiver. I ran into this when I wanted to convert an SLR-105 to 5.56 before the SLR-106 came out. I had a 5.56 trunion, but I could not just swap it out in the SLR-105 receiver since the trunion is the serialized part... Go figure. The issue with your rifle appears that is does not have the other legally required information, as noted above; model/type, the caliber, place of manufacture, and name of manufacture. Just like filling out a Form I. The example MAK uses of home building an AK is sound if that rifle is not intended for sale or transfer. But the moment it is intended to be sold or transferred to someone else, it then needs a serial number and manufacturing information as noted above. Though they may not know their own rules, this is all spelled out in the ATF's website and in the relevant US Code (NFA laws) that governs these things. You are in no danger of trouble. You acted in good faith. They are in error and have offered to correct it because they know the trouble this can bring. But now that you have publicly declared all this and contacted them, you might have tied your own hands an have to follow through because you did not make the rifle (so you can't Form 1 it in it's present state, you'd still have to mark it and then spend more money...), the receiver is a foreign made one with no import marking, etc.... I am not trying to be a wet blanket. I think all these rules are absurd. War trophies pre-date the laws requiring these markings. If I bring an AK home from Iraq, I am going to the brig, not the engraver to mark it... Maybe I am missing something… |
All Chinese AK's were marked with the serial number on the trunnion only. Don't send it back because honestly it is worth about 25% more due to this little mis-hap. They are going to screw it up. |
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