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Posted: 12/24/2006 5:49:00 AM EDT
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I had a top name AK builder build two rifles with NDS-3 receivers with a Romanian parts kits. One works fine. The other has problems with stovepiping and the bolt not completely feeding rounds. I have sent it back to them to be fixed and they could not find the problem. I am using Polish metal 30 round mags. I also tried a Chinese 10 rounder and a German mag. What would you do? Would you send it back again to the people that built it? Or, look for a new AK specialist to look at it (costs money)? P.S. The original builder has good communication and a good attitude about trying to help. They are a little on the slow side though. I just want to get it fixed soon. |
it's more of a disservice to the people here to not let them know. part of building is making sure it functions. Have you asked them if they are willing to cover the cost of sending it to another builder to have it fixed? |
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If it's stove piping it sounds like a "failure to eject" problem. There might be something wrong witht the ejector, not positioned properly, or maybe the drive spring is too weak, not allowing the bolt to move far enough to the rear so that the spent round will make forceful contact with the ejector. Also, with the bolt coming forward and not completely feeding the rounds makes it smell more of a weak drive spring. Try swapping the drive spring from your good AK and see what happens. If it works fine, ditch the old spring for a new one. Keep in mind that since this is a kit gun (being built from old parts) the drive spring could just be old and in need of replacement. Who knows how much use it's seen. If the builder did a good job on the first one (and assuming he's knows what he's doing), but you're having this problem, my guess would be the problem is due to old parts |
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The problem is that the stovepiping is intermitent. It happens about 10% of the time. I did notice that the extraction is inconsistent. Sometimes, the shells are ejected into the next zip code. Other times, the shells are ejected one foot away. When I did send it back, they said they checked the extractor. I can see how a weak spring could cause the bolt to fail to go into battery. But, I do not understand how a weak spring would stop the bolt from traveling far enough to hurt extraction. Can someone explain this? Since it has both extraction inconsistencies and bolt going into battery problems, could it be that the bolt carrier is dragging on the rails? Maybe the receiver is flexing under recoil and binding up? Could the finish on the rails and bolt carriers be too thick (they refinished the rifle)? I was thinking about polishing the surfaces that make contact. This is kind of frustrating. I wanted an AK because of their legendary reliability. |
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I did notice something else that could be the problem. There is a chance that it is the finish used on the rifle. I have always thought the bolt carrier did not slide smoothly. I looked at the rails and the groves on the bolt carrier. It appears that the baked on finish is thick and rough. I GENTLY took some rubbing compound and polished the mating surfaces by hand to smooth things up. It seems significantly smoother and the carrier glides better on the rails. Last time out, the gun malfunctioned more after about 60 rounds. So, my theory is that the finish is slowly wearing off the mating surfaces and gumming up the movement of the carrier. If it doesn't rain tomorrow, I will test it again. |
What kind of finish was used. |
I thought you said the build was from " a top name builder"? IMHO top AK smiths function check what they build and correct problems if they arrise. I'd look for another builder in the future if I were you. Some members of this board complain about AK-USA's prices but all 10 of the AK's he's built for me work 100%of the time with zero problems. If paying more produces a fine custom built AK, i'll gladly pay more. You guys can stick to your "top" AK builders, I'll go the AK-USA route. |
quoted for truth. he shouldn't have sent it back to you without checking it out to make sure it worked. |
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I want to say something about the builder. They did look at the gun the second time. They saw some of the malfunctions at first. Then, the gun seemed to run well for them. They even sent me video of it running well during a test fire. Although I am having problems getting this gun to work, the builder has treated me well. They have a great attitude and have been in touch with me trying to solve the problem. It just does not get any better than that. Intermittent problems can be extremely hard to fix. I wish everyone treated me as well as these guys. I was just trying to get some tips on what to look for at my end before I simply just sent it back to them again. I plan to test it after polishing the places where the bolt carrier makes contact with the receiver this weekend. If it still does not work, I am confident that they will keep trying. P.S. I am not interested in making anyone "at fault". I am just trying to solve a problem. |
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The builds were done by us here at Missouri Custom Armament. After seeing this thread I emailed GJJ to see if it was ok for me to post here. I appreciate him not wanting to name us, but we stand behind our work and part of that means 'fessing up if something isn't right. Watching this thread unfold without participating feels like hiding, and I'm not about that. Occasionally we do have a build come back to us and we always handle it in the way I'm about to describe, which is the best way I know how. Here's a brief history of the gun in question. GJJ had us build him two IDENTICAL guns using NoDakSpud receivers and Romy G parts kits. Both guns were hot tank blued-- the finish is NOT a spray-n-bake, but bluing. US parts included receiver, G2 trigger, gas piston, and pistol grip. At the time they were built, the guns were California compliant due to an allen head set-screw we installed in the mag catch area which made it impossible to remove the magazine while the set-screw was in place. GJJ wanted to use regular mags when not in Cali, so after crossing state lines to visit friends in Nevada he can remove the set-screws and the gun functions as a normal AK. California recently changed their assault weapon "interpretation" bullshit, so unfortunately GJJ now also has to remove the pistol grips from the guns whenever he is in Cali. Both guns were test fired sucessfully before shipping to GJJ. Shortly after getting the guns from us, GJJ emailed us that one gun ran just fine and the other was having stovepipe problems. I assumed they were mag related since I friggin' hate those dumb 10 round mags. GJJ sent us the problem gun back and I test fired it, and while using the Chinese 10 rounder I had two Failures to Eject in my first range session with it. Both were stovepipes with the round being caught between the bolt carrier and the trunion as the gun tried to feed in a fresh round. The gun did not fail to feed. Back at the shop we stripped the gun down and inspected it over and over. The receiver was not pinched in the middle like Armory USA receivers do, the bolt carrier slides nicely back and forth. The gas port was not obstructed. The magazine was fine although I polished the feed lips just a bit with very fine grit sandpaper just to make sure there weren't any burrs on them. I've seen guns with tight chambers that had problems before but never a Romy G kit, and the chamber on this one looks fine, no gouges or nicks in it. We headspaced it and checked the moving parts for any burrs that might be holding up the bolt carrier on its way rearward. The ejector has not been messed with, it looks just like any other NDS-3 ejector and the bolt doesn't hang up on it. I left that alone, I don't like removing heat-treated metal from ejectors, that's a quick way to ruin it for sure. We've built alot of AKs, more than I can count, and had a few come back to us with problems. It does happen, show me a businessman who claims his product has never had any kind of problem and I'll show you a bullshit artist. Everyone at the shop took turns looking at the gun very carefully and trying to brainstorm potential causes of the failures to eject. With our eyes, hands, and calipers, we can't find anything measurably wrong with the gun. Eventually I wound up over-oiling it up like an aging porn star and taking it out with me on three more range trips. As I was test firing new builds, I'd bring along this problem child and put a couple of mags through it to see if it would choke. A variety of steel-cased ammo was fired through it including the nasty soft point stuff, and it feeds fine and runs fine, the two FTE's didn't ever repeat themselves with over 100 rounds test fired. We used the 10 round mag and some 30 round mags, all steel mags. I filmed a rapid fire string with my digicam and sent it to GJJ just to show him that I really was shooting the gun and trying to figure it out. It seems to work fine in Missouri and hate California. But even when it is working 100%, I have to admit that it doesn't eject as forcefully as other AKs. An AK should fling its spent casings halfway to the next county and way out in front of the shooter. This gun only flings the spent casings about ten to fifteen feet, inconsistently, and directly to the RIGHT of the shooter, not forward. So even with the gun running 100%, there IS an issue somewhere which we have not been able to diagnose or cure. Realizing that I was getting more range time with the gun than its owner was, we sent it back to GJJ with instructions to keep shooting it and see if he still experienced problems. We paid shipping both ways if anyone cares. GJJ hasn't had a chance to try out the gun since he got it back from us, but hopefully he will get some range time in now that the holidays are over. Right now the plan is for him to continue to shoot the gun and document any problems that he has, with photos if possible, and watch for any unusual wear. For example, if the top of the ejector is getting the finish scratched off more than anything else, maybe the ejector is too thick. If the gas piston is getting scratched up on the top or bottom, then it isn't aligned with the gas port properly, etc. We just won't know until the gun has more rounds fired through it and a pattern is detected or something physically wrong with it becomes noticeable. GJJ has been in touch with us and has always been a gentleman regarding this gun. He knows that if/when we figure out what's going on with it, we'll be happy to take the gun back again and fix whatever the hell isn't right. Until then I can't think of anything to do but ask him to "drive it till it breaks". GJJ does have an identical gun that works, so swapping out bolt carriers or gas tubes is a viable option to try and see if it makes any difference. That's the only other idea I can think of but with the problem being so intermittent, could we even tell if the parts swapping made any difference? |
So is it an issue feeding with the California legal mag when the owner is using it or does it also happen with the regular mags? |
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Mak, here's the Cliff's notes version of my post: I initially got it to choke twice with the Cali-legal Chinese neutered mag. After some TLC and oiling it up it ran fine with that mag and with 30 round mags. It doesn't eject as hard as it should but it functions now. I've never gotten it to fail to feed, only fail to extract twice. I sent it back and GJJ hasn't had a chance to try it since. |
Yup Duke is a good guy that is why we keep him around... Our goal is to make our customer happy, not to just shovel out crappy rifles... We leave that to some other manufacturers, The two rifles in question turned out very nice and got a few comments from visitors to the shop, there is no real reason why they should not both function flawlessly...  Like Duke says I think we have shot this gun more than it's owner! Ejection seems a little sluggish and it should also be mentioned that these were built on NDS Economy receivers... from kit parts supplied by the owner, again I do not see any reason that one works and not the other... |
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We'll have to wait and see if it works now, but I take it that the OP posted this before taking it out again and using all the mags. Should have test fired the weapon after the return from -Duke-Nukem- before posting this. I don't get the point some have mentioned about the recoil spring being weak. If the recoil spring were weak the bolt carrier would slam rearward with more force, causing the spent shell casing to hit the extractor with more force. No binding in the receiver was noticed so that the bolt carrier should be moving freely and not slowing up there. If it was an AR I would suspect a gas system problem with the weak ejection of fired rounds like I had with an undersized gasport once . I agree that if it was my rifle the first thing I would do is switch some parts around and see if that would narrow down the problem. Trying a variety of different ammo. I had an experience once in selling a rifle to a guy who complained for a year that it wouldn't shoot right (accuracy not function). After a year of listening to him and trying to work it out the rifle was taken to the range and it was discovered the guy couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. When you are new to a rifle system and not familiar with it you want it to work from the start and impatience may cause you to get frustrated. The experience I had with my second AR purchase was like that when the owner of the company that built the upper screamed and swore at me. The gas port once drilled out by another builder worked flawlessly. |
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Thanks Mak. I started this thread AFTER I received the weapon back and ran into problems again. Unfortunately, the failures persisted. So, I was looking for more input. To date, I have put approximately 400-500 rounds through this gun with 10 different 30 round mags. I took it out again today after I lightly polished the areas that make contact with the bolt carrier. The gun was clean. It ran flawlessly for exactly 80 rounds. Then, it failed to chamber the next round. I tried to "bump" the charging handle like you do with a Garand. No luck. The bolt carrier was stuck about an inch from chambering the round. I retracted the handle and cleared the weapon. I put in a new magazine and started having stovepipe failures and failures to chamber. The only thing different about the state of the weapon during failure is the fact that it was now dirty and warm. Last time out, I started seeing failures at about the same round count. I have been shooting for 20 years and am an engineer by trade. I own AR15s, Garands, Mini-14s, Remington 700s, SKS and multiple handguns. This is not user error. Mak, please don't try to make me the bad guy in the same manner I am not trying to make MCA the bad guy. I am simply going to have to send it back and have them look at it again. Like I said before, intermittent problems are the most difficult to diagnose. They have treated me great and I am sure we will find the problem. Dave |
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As Duke Nukem said... Try swapping bolt carriers and recoil springs & see what happens. On one of my builds I have a bolt carrier w/ us piston assembly that was really tight on the receiver. I figured the receiver must be bent till I tried a bolt carrier from my wasr10 in it. That one worked fine and the tight works fine in the Wasr10. I think what happened is the carrier got bent just behind the where the piston screws in. Hammered the heck out of that area to pin in the gas piston. |
Damn. Does this sound like a tight chamber to anyone else? When its clean it runs fine, then when its hot and dirty and the green laquer starts to build up in the chamber it gets "sticky" and won't feed or eject, then when you clean all that crap out you are good to go for awhile again. Tight chamber, makes sense to me. Seen it in Bulgarian 5.45s more than the Romanian 7.62s but it doesn't mean it can't happen to them as well. GGJ is sending it back to us, again. I'm gonna have to ream the chamber and just hope I don't cut through the chrome lining. Work you fucking motherfucker, work! 
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GJJ, Where do you see that I am trying to make you out to be the bad guy. I don't know where you are seeing that. I related a story about a guy saying I sold him a rifle that wouldn't shoot. I'm working with the guy tonight. This shows that sometimes a problem is something that may not be anything at all. I related a story of an AR-15 builder who yelled at me when I called about a rifle that wouldn't function. ASA which the guy's antics are well known here on the board. This shows that even though there may be a problem with a rifle and a justified complaint of the owner, the builder will often accuse the owner of being stupid etc.. and give no customer service. -Duke-Nukem- is not known for being one of these. I mentioned that I didn't see that a weak recoil spring was causing this problem in my opinion.
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| I don't have a clear picture of whats actually going on with this rifle. But this something to check out. Mahe sure the ejector is makeinf good contact with the shell caseing. Make sure the bolt don't have alot of side to side play when it is rideing through the ejector. It could be just nicking the spent case and getting a poor ejection and causeing the case to not get out of the reciever. If I missed with that explanation then here's another situation you ca have with these commercial built recievers. The rear of the magazine might not be high anough and causeing the bolt to not get anough of the fresh case and get it partcially pushed into the chamber / ramp area and then skip over the case and cause a stoppage. One way to correct this is... The plate , which is a selector stop that is samwitched inbetween the trigger housen can be ground down to allow the rear of the mag to sit higher. Also with cheap recievers that don't have the PROPER step in the TOP rails can allow the boltcarrier to be mover up and down to much. It then can cause ejection issues and feeding issues. If I had to bet my money, the recivers is out of spec.... Which they normally all are alittle. Tweaking deal here...I had an OOW reciever give me and my Builder fits. What I just described is exactly what happen to me and is what we had to do to correct it. My builder stood by me also and kept on working on it till it got to functioning correctly. We ground the plate to get the rear of the mag up.It was skipping cases and jamming and also not ejecting them properly. To fix the ejection he welded to ejctor to make it longer. It was actually to short. An OOW mix up. Im sure you old timer remember a few years back when that happened. OOW was all that was avaliable at the time of my build. I really like the Global 1mms with the correct steps and dimple. Im sure there are other quality recievers out there now. Good luck sir. WarDawg |
Both of these rifles were built on NDS Economy receivers which lack the mag guide on the left and the stepped rail. this is of little concern. One of the rifles works fine the other is "Different" it somewhat works... Now for other news for watchers of this thread, Daves rifle arrived back in the shop yesterday, I unpacked it and tore it all apart now what you are all not aware of is what all US parts are present, THe Receiver, Trigger Group, and Furniture set is the US parts count. 3+3+1 We did not have to replace the pistons. So out of curiosity I tried several different Pistons in the gas chamber on this rifle, the original piston is a little loose, the RSA type piston fits more snugly, a "NO NAME" piston has some slop, and a take off Commie piston fits fairly snug. I sent the rifle out with another person from the shop to test fire, with a Bolt carrier equipped with an RSA piston... we will see what he reports back. There is not much else that it could be it just seems to be getting a weak recoil pulse... the bolt rides smoothly... no issues there, we polished the hell out of the chamber last time it was in... I will keep it this time until we get it fixed for sure. |
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Same guy, same rifle. Issue posted all over the site under 2 screen names. He received his refund of the total build cost. Has never posted the update as of this date from the builder it has supposedly been sent to for a repair, an invoice or a detailed repair order, he stated that the new smith working on it has found a number of issues but hasn't posted what they are so we may never know what the supposed problem is. If he ever wants to post an update supporting his negative feedback he needs to contact munyguru to open up his feedback post here. He never did that when he got his refund check, I don't think he will when he gets his rifle back either. We will see if he proves this moron wrong. ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=95960 ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=74&t=94978 ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=109&t=424562 ak47.net/forums/topic.html?b=7&f=109&t=427359
Since some members here and Dave have called me a moron and clueless here I will post that a week ago I sent Dave an email included here and the response from him that the refund was in fact received.
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I received the rifle back from the builder. I plan to shoot it next weekend. It is dramatically smoother than before. After it functions without a malfunction for 150+ rounds, I will post the summary of problems and a photocopy of the invoice. I asked the builder if he thought MCA should have noticed the problems. He laughed and said, "of course". It took him less than a day to call me back with his intended fix. Dave. P.S. Mak, don't get your panties in a bunch about the timing. MCA promised to build my gun in 6 weeks. They took 6 months to actually do the build! Sometimes things don't happen your way or on your timeframe. Get used to it. I am sure you work for them due to your obession with this issue. You are such a punk about the screen name thing. I have two accounts because I barely ever post on this board and re-registered by mistake. I have never used the two names to deceive anyone or somehow do anything unethical. |
| dave its very simple.......just tell us what the other guy found, I dont care if the rifle is running OK or not....I want to know what HE FOUND.....people keep asking you the same question over and over and its a different excuse with you everytime....if the rifle was messed up no problem it happens, did you get the rifle back and your money?(ok no problem) again shit happens.....did you send it away to another gunsmith(you say you did and already got it back) ok still no problem......JUST POST WHAT THE HELL WAS WRONG WITH THE THING it takes 2 damn seconds to post |
Tag to see/hear what your new builder found wrong with it. And I'm curious if it had anything to do with the bolt carrier since you said earlier that it ran fine when you swapped your bolt carriers around. |
Its not just Mak that you are a scammer. Posting under 2 names, changing your story, and never answering the most important question of all, what was the problem? Just be honest in the answer of the question and it will go a long way to better your name around here. |
First I am a moron, now a punk? Dave3006, MCA is in MO. I am in AZ. You state you come to AZ to shoot your rifle. You want to meet? Just post what was found to be wrong with the rifle. Post the invoice showing what was corrected. All anyone wants is for you to back up all the negative posts you have made concerning MCA. You have never done that after how many months of posting negative threads repeatedly. MMK. I am sending you a edited copy of my creds of where I work so that you can verify that I don't work for the AZ branch of MCA. Maybe then you can let Dave3006 know that I for one post the truth in my profile on who I work for. Not an MCA employee. Post the results Dave3006. Post the repair invoice. Post the problems found. If he doesn't, MCA needs to be vindicated {definition}"to clear, as from an accusation, imputation, suspicion, or the like: to vindicate someone's honor." I think a time period needs to be set for Dave3006 to post his evidence of misconduct in this situation by MCA, through neglect or otherwise with documented proof. If he does not meet that, then Dave3006 should be banned with all his screen name accounts and his personal info posted on the site to warn others. This should be posted with a big -1. End of the week should be long enough. You would have been believed if you would have ever offered proof of the problems. Dave3006, getting info from you is like pulling teeth from a Rottweiler while they are awake without novacaine. It isn't easy. No wonder MCA had problems dealing with you. |
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MCA vindicated? I don't think so. I already PROVED the following: 1. I already posted video proof the gun malfunctioned. 2. I posted the emails where MCA admitted they saw the problem. Here you go on the repair: I had the gun repaired. The cost was $195. I am posting a link to the picture of the invoice. And, don't even think about asking who the builder who fixed it was. I wouldn't turn you loose on him for all the money in the world. http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i58/dave3006/Akreceipt1.jpg He fixed my rifle in a day. He said the problems were obvious to anyone who knows AKs. The problems included: 1. Size carrier rails. They were 0.025" out of spec in the center and rear. Before Mak whines about it being the fault of Nodak, I would like him to go back and read how MCA claimed to take measurements that proved the gun was in spec. The builder found the problem MCA could not in a DAY! I asked him if the problem was obvious. He said, "absolutely". Part of building a gun is fitting it to the receiver. People do this all the time with rifle stocks. Since he could make the gun work in a DAY, I think I will go with his opinion. 2. Replace fire control with Double hook G2 trigger. The gun MCA built would double under certain conditions. MCA specifically recommended the single hook trigger. The gun was dangerous in the event of a slam fire. 3. Selector level too loose. Moved under recoil. Could be partially responsible for malfunctions. 4. Hammer spring adjusted. Found spring resting on trigger pin axis. Would not allow proper trigger return. The gun works now. MCA promised to do my build in 6 weeks. It took 6 months. Then, they were incapable of finding the problem. This took an additional 6 months. They lied that they had not seen it malfunction then wanted to make me pay more to fix it. Only after I publically posted the truth did they claim to buy my rifle back. I never got a monetary offer. I had to endure cr*p from Mak who has no personal knowledge of this situation and is nothing but a front man for MCA. The gun was not built right. Fitting a receiver is easy according to a competent builder. If I told you his name, you would know him. All MCA needed to do was answer their emails and tell the truth. All of this didn't need to happen. They didn't leave me a choice but to take this public. I got my money back sent it to someone capable of getting it running. End of story. |
Unfortunately, the original threads are now stuck between the board and the archive server. But the fact remains that the parts kit, compliance parts and receiver were supplied by Dave3006/GJJ as far as we know. I can't read the invoice, I downloaded it and zoomed it but still can't read the picture, would have been better if it was a scan. As far as the problems "found" I will address them.
I would like to know who the individual is that "repaired" the rifle but dave3006 isn't going to tell us. The only problem dave3006 has posted that I feel MCA may have been liable for is the selector lever being loose if it was in fact, they should have caught this if it was indeed loose. But dave3006 never posted that he noticed it moving up into a position where it would interfere with operation. The AK will function correctly on a semi-auto rifle with the selector almost to the safe position. The full auto position is not in the extreme lower position which is semi, so it will continue to function as it is moved up until the safe position is almost reached. Unless the lever was so loose it was flopping all around and up to the top position of the receiver then this should have caused no malfunction I can fathom. I've gone back and watched dave3006's video and the selector does not move at all when the rifle is fired. It stays in the extreme lower position. No problem there. In my opinion the "problem" was most likely the NDS receiver due to NoDakSpuds posting of the problem concerning their receivers after this all started. The parts kit supplied. The hammer spring which could have snapped off the trigger leg at any time. Some of it could have been due to MCA but the proof is not overwhelming that they were at fault more than the possibility of inferior parts being supplied which you admitted previously that if it was the parts you supplied that MCA couldn't be at fault. You got all your money back from them. The rifle has supposedly been repaired by the unknown smith. Hopefully, we are done with this issue and hopefully you will do us all a favor and request that both of your accounts are locked. We don't need members here that handle things the way you did. Later Dave. The moron and punk as you stated. Bagdad Bob, the employee of Missouri Custom Arms Arizona division who gets his panties in a bunch because he loves MCA so much. Mak (the guy who lives in Arizona, has never done business with MCA, works for the gov't and hopes to never run into Dave Hunicutt) mm_k, please do us a favor. |
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Now that I provided proof, Mak has a "hard time believing it". Why am I not surprized. If you want to ban anyone, ban MCA for their repeated profanity and the lies they told. That is just precious. Ban a person for posting proof his gun was built wrong and getting it fixed. Bottom line - the gun didn't work. I sent it to a better builder. The gun now works. It took him ONE DAY. P.S. I proved my point and I am done. |
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