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Posted: 5/12/2004 6:25:07 PM EDT
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I'm still scratching my head wondering how the Service Men [and Woman] did anything to be ashamed of,other than letting someone take photos of their work.The "Victims" were being held for conducting guerrilla type warefare against the US and the Country of Iraq.They posessed knowledge of others with the same intent and they usually are'nt very talkative without a little "softening up". The methods used in Iraq for softening up suspects is relatively mild in comparison to what happens in the same situations to our people during interrogations.No one was disfigured or mutilated,just degraded and offered better treatment for some accurate info that may save American lives. |
| Agreed. They treat our prisoners far worse. I see nothing wrong with what our soldiers did, but I suspect, even on this board that I'm in the minority. The Liberaltarians are incensed it seems and the appologists forget that war is a dirty business. I'm also not really bothered that some of our women warriors got a little payback in giving these proud men of Islam the ulitimate insult. Pvt Lynch if you will recall suffered far worse while in their charge. In the eyes of Islam the guy on the leash is no longer a man and from what I read about him, I'm OK with that. |
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GUYS ITS THIS SIMPLE TAKE TWO PICTURES ONE OF THE IRAQI PRISONER WITH UNDER WHERE ON HIS HEAD AND PUT IT NEXT TO THE AMERICAN WITH NO HEAD. Its simple, the normal citizen has no idea whats going on over there, im so proud of our forces. I wish the US people would let this thing go and put effort into better matters like supporting our troops and not bad mouthing then, CoLd |
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I think we should be very careful how we respond to these current allegations. Much I do not know but I do know we do not yet know all that happened in those prisons. Further, I do know there was NO FUCKING LEADERSHIP. In a climate with no leadership, I'm very fearful that it is going to come out that we murdered some of those prisoners. Am I embarrased ?? Yes I am. We are Americans and hold ourselves to a higher moral standard than the animals that killed Berg. 5sub |
| I'm pretty pasionate about this topic...And I'm a cold hearted S.O.B....I feel very little pitty for anything....Is anyone here a prison gaurd???? Has anyone here been in prison???? Well let me just say that the same thing's go on in our prison system all day everyday to AMERICAN's..So all these super MORAL people that are outraged by the treatment of these people that have tried to kill son's daughter's mom's and dad's in the U.S. Military... They need to get more concearned about what's happening in there own community and in there own state.What's the old saying love it or leave it...Right or wrong I'm behind the people putting there life on the line for me and my COUNTRY!!!! |
| The only thing they should get in trouble for is taking those damn pictures. That was the stupidest thing they could have done. This is a war and bad things happen. Humiliating prisoners who are incarcerated because they are there for trying to kill US soldiers and torturing Iraqi citizens should not be a crime. Those animals do unspeakable things to our prisoners. If you don't feel that way, look at the brutal killing of Nick Berg or US soldiers that were captured at the beginning of the war. Look what they did to Daniel Pearl and the Spanish soldier. In a perfect world, ever country would just lock up war prisoners and maybe beat the shit out of them every now but we're not dealing with civilized people. |
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Jicky, I was a CO for a year at a juvie prison and a CO for a Sheriff's dep't for almost 7yrs. In my experience inmates were stripped only when they were considered to be suicidal or so out of control that everything was taken from the inmate and he was left in the cell with nothing but the steel toilet, sink, and bunk. The cold usually got to them and they wanted their clothing back and began to behave like civilized people again.  BTW, no cameras were allowed except for the camcorder that was used to document cell extractions. |
| The Red Cross report on Abu Ghraib stated that coalition intelligence officers estimated up to 90% of the prisoners were arrested by mistake. A private contractor also stated that many of the prisoners there were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
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I don't understand this moral double standard here. If pictures surfaced of American prisoners being treated this way you would all be outraged. There would be no attempt at rationalizing the actions of the Iraqis. I happen to oppose brutality of this type no matter who is doing it, not just when it's the other side. Just because you can't expect any better from the enemy doesn't mean you don't expect better of our own people. The way I see it that's what being the "good guys" is all about. Now as far as the heat and confusion of war, I don't think that really applies to this situation. If a group of surrendering Iraqis were gunned down by adrenaline pumped soldiers that would be one thing, but this is a prison where prisoners have been taken after the fact. |
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What those jackasses did is not OK. I am a veteran, I am proud of that fact, the day that being a veteran of the US ARMY means no more than "at least they aren't as bad as the bad guy" I will hang my head in shame. Being a soldier in the US ARMY means you will be held to a higher standard than any other soldier in the world, it means you will be scrutinizzed much harder than if you were from any other country in the world, and if you cannot manage to serve with honor and fidelity then you have no place in the army. THier is no excuse for what those jackasses did, they can blame thier leadership and htey are right to do so, they had no real leadership, but even then they are still adults who are expected know the difference between right and wrong, they knew what they were doing was wrong. As gaurds thier job was not to "soften the prisoners up" thier job was to manage and protect the prisoners while those who are trained to do so (MI interogators and PSYOP specialists), do so. These soldiers knew that these behaviours are not in thier job description, even in non combat arms training you are given instruction on how to humanely handle prisoners, and the emphasis is always on "humane treatment". As far as responsibility goes, the officers who were supposed to be in command should receive the most servere punishment, but the lower grade soldiers should not be exonerated, because it is thier duty to follow orders unless the orders are brazenly illegal, then it is thier responsiblilty to not follow the orders and report the situation to higher echelons until the proper actio can be taken, none of this happened. These guys were having fun, and screwing around, thats all, no what they did may not have been that big of a deal, but it does reflect badly upon thier branch, service, and country, and they were aware that this was the case as they were commiting the offenses, they just thought that they wouldn't get caught. |
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Its really hard to draw any conclusions without all of the facts,Clarence stated that 90% of the detainees were innocent and only guilty of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.This is probably true,but were the prisoners that was being softened up among the remaining 10% that was actually involved in hostilities? Ajer,I too oppose brutality but I also believe in extracting important information that may save American lives.Sometimes the end does justify the means,but as I stated before,we don't have all of the facts and more than likely never will. P-38, hold your head high for the service you did for your Country,these few individuals don't represent even a 10th of a percent of all the good deeds that has been done it this war.The enemy will take full advantage of any negative propoganda and will even twist the facts of good deeds to make us look evil. |
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The prison gaurds deserve to be hung. They have tarnished the dignity of all Americans fighting in Iraq with their actions. They were wearing the uniform, and they were an active part of our armed services. Their actions hurt EVERYONE! We should be far above the terrorist cowards in our behavior. We don't need to act like them, because we are now out to kill them. Humiliating prisoners is not our business, but killing their brothers in arms around the globe is. Our business should be conducted very professionally. Those prisoners may or may not deserve to be treated well, but they should be shown some stern respect and due process while in our custody. They need to see that we are a people who have control over ourselves, and that we are there to do our will in a very orderly and controlled manner. They do not need any more reasons to want to kill us. By our actions, they should see first hand that we are not anything like what they have imagined us to be. Because those prisoners were treated that way, they probably have found a murderous rage and an overwhelming desire to do inexplicable harm to any American they see. Whatever hatred they had before, it is now magnified. What the hell are we trying to accomplish in Iraq if we are allowing this to happen? Those prison gaurds should be taken out and shot. They have given the enemy an absolutely wonderful, juicy, red-hot lob of propaganda that will only end up in a greater loss of American life. Our mission in Iraq is going to be very expensive to complete. Since we are there, we have no other alternative but to swallow the fact that this fight is going to be very bitter. Those prison gaurds have done the enemy an outstanding favor by showing (even though it is a false representation) the world the conduct of American soldiers behind closed doors. We will not be able to work enough to undue this mighty blow to the image of the American military. I feel so much shame and disgust for what those prison gaurd bastards have done. Now we all get to pick up the tag. |
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We have been called the children of Shaytan , godless scum by the jihadists. We will never persuade a jihadist we are any different. The problem with the pictures is that they show children of Shaytan at play and the vast, silent majority of muslims in the world are looking at them. |
I worked at the Texas Dept of Correction's in Alice Texas ..A boot camp for mostly drug affender's...When you see a 17 year old boy with his ass bleeding from being raped all night buy other inmate's..When you see all the atrosities that accures in prison.. Well let me just say I saw WAY worse thing's there then I did in the pic's of the Iraqi's...And since I am retiered I now can say that some gaurd's took great pleasure in watching inmate's fight like pit bull's..Degrating them and looking the other way...Basically we looked at them as the SCUM of the earth and did'nt feel any remorse at all as to what went on..I'm not proud of it ...But if the ignorant new what was happening in American prison's they would get there panties in a wad like they are now..But that's not shoved down the throat on every channel everyday all day..Funny how the masses get on band wagon's when they see something on T.V.......It's almost funny to watch the (moral outrage) of the people when they see it on the news..All I'm saying is hope the SPIN STOP"S HERE....Cause I'm getting sick
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You know, I hate to come across as another cold hearted animal myself, but, "wrong place at the wrong time" ?! If 90% of these prisoners were NOT combatants, and were in the wrong place at the wrong time, they shouldn't have f*cking been there. This is a war, people. This is not a situation where the US military is trying to find US criminals, and shouldn't be harming US innocents. Every last Iraqi, civilian or combatant, is the enemy right now. If they don't want to be mistaken for a combatant, or don't want to be considered an enemy, then they need to determine for themselves which is more important -sticking around their homes, or getting the hell out of Dodge so they don't get mistaken. Right now at this very moment, I don't care how many innocent men women and children are in Fallujah - our military should be firebombing the entire town. If those people don't want to get dead, then they need to leave. Now, I've heard all kinds of whiny ass rhetoric about "people shouldn't be forced to leave their homes" and how it's not right. What the hell? You don't get to play nice in war There's this site I like to frequent, www.therazor.org It's got something on the front page:
But no, those were OTHER Muslims. Finally, let me give you all a briefing on the Total War Doctrine, a quote from another artcile at The Razor (article located at www.therazor.org/oldroot/Summer02/hamasassass.htm):
I can't say that I particularly care for most of Bush's policies, or the overall person, but I know that he's a damned shade better than Kerry, so when I say what I'm about to say, I'm not trying to advocate another candidate over Bush - he's currently the best one there is. Anyways, any city that these enemy combatants whole themselves up in should be considered a military target. If the Iraqi people and the Muslim world in general don't like that attitude, then perhaps they should do something about it. If "civilians" don't want to leave the town the day the bombs level it, then it's their own damned fault - they're damned lucky they got a warning, unlike Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It's time to end this nonsense right now - Libya has already called us up and told us "Hey, you guys were right all along, and we were idiots. We don't want to be target number 2." Iraq needs to be an example to the entire Middle East, and the rest of the world - for better or for worse, we are the peacekeepers of the world, we are the policy makers and trend setters. We're the ones that clean up others messes, and we're the ones that effect changes that need to be made. Diplomacy only goes so far, and it needs to be shown that we will effectively eliminate threats to our country and the rest of the world. If a few civilians end up getting killed, or their "rights" (and that's a whole 'nother topic - exactly how many rights did these "civilians" have before we entered Iraq, huh?) trampled, after numerous warnings that it's going to happen, then so be it. And I've had people say to me "You'd be preaching a different tune if the US Military tried to do that domestically, taking away your rights." You're damned right I would, and it's not hypocrisy, it's not a double standard. This is the United States, and we have laws that say our own government won't do that to us. We won't tolerate it, and we will prevent it. These other countries are NOT the United States, and they WERE given countless oppurtunities to effect the change that was required, and chose not to. It's a completely different issue. |
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Let me start by saying as a former SP in the USAF this BS the soldiers are claiming of not being trained on how to deal with prisoners is horseshit!! While I never worked in a military run prison I can tell you that training is done on a continual basis in the service as many of you know. With MPs their primary responsibility is securing rear areas/depots and securing EPWs(enemy prisoners of war). That is their stated mission so how can they claim to be not trained  IMO these MPs lacked supervision and what probably started out as pranks and "cop humor" got way the hell out of control!! By "cop humor" I mean the photo of the guy with wires attached to his fingers, hooded, and told to stand on the box and if he fell off would be electrocuted sounds like a vicious prank to me. The pranks escalated from there because surely the next one had to be better than the last right? I think that these prisoners were being humiliated for the amusement of the MPs...That is sad and what little progress we were making has been majorly damaged! 
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I have to agree with Kythri on this shit storm. In any other war. These guys woukld be dead, or tortured to death. If what happend got information out of them that saved lives, F*'em. They should be glad they still have blood moving through their veins. No one ever won a war by playing nice. For all of those who think that the US always plays nice should look at the past. American soldiers in combat have been just as vicious as the enemies we claim to be better than. I am not knocking American soldiers, simply stating that they are human, and act like most soldiers when in a combat zone. I think the guys who took the pictures should be bitch slapped to the middle of next week, but as for what happened t5o the POW's, I have no problem with the firing squad for them when then they are done beating the information out of them. Am I cold, maybe, but look at the history of war and what real war is all about, and it is no longer cold, it is simply another war, same old story. Those who complain about this IMO, simply do not know history. History repeats, and this is proof. |
I can't speak for all in the scandle but several of them WASN'T Mp's. They was paper clerks and Mechanic's. From what being said they was put over there because of lack of people to man the place. They are the ones saying they wasn't ever trained to be a Prison guard. For those that state they wish the U.S. soldiers was was HUNG and Taken out and shot????? Are you volunteering to do the job??. Sorry I don't buy all this PC liberal wishy washy lets fight a clean War and be good boy's and girls. As along as they didn't take bricks and smash hands / or murder them as POW's , I could give a Rat's A$$ about a rag head being offend and humiliated while in US custody. For those that say they will hate us more... How much more hate can one hate. They think we are the great satan, and would glady cut your childrens throats and car bomb your wifes car. . Pi$$ on them and let the Marines and Army loose and kill as many of them while we can.Sick of this PC crap. We are at WAR people. Sincerly from a Vet.  WD
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| Nope they weren't trained as gaurds or MP's they were not trained as interrogators or PSYOPS specilaists either, so why did they take that upon themselves, when they obviously had no intention of doing the job they were assigned? It does not take much training for a US soldier to know that you don't do this crap. I don't really care whether or not treating prisoners weel makes them like us or not, it is the standard that is expected of a US soldier, I have seen Honduran and Salvadoran troops do far worse to the people they capture or believe were supporting rebels, but that doesn't mena I would be OK if I saw US troops doing it, My feeling is that we are better than them, or do you really believe that our troops should be held to no higher standards than a bunch of raggeddy ass Hondurans who don't have the sense to move thier latrine away from the stream where they get thier drinking water? |
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Higher standards? Sure. We won't behead our prisoners on video. Presto. We've achieved higher standards. Now put the rest of the Abu Gharib population in front of a firing squad. Fill it up again. Rinse, lather, repeat until the ragheads get the clue that we're not fucking around. Yep, I know, big talk from an armchair commando. That's all I am. I swear, though; I'm on a diet now, and as soon as I lose my fatass, if this war is still going on, I'm enlisting. If I'm lucky, maybe I get to put a bullet into some enemy as a small token of retribution. 9/11 should have been this era's Pearl Harbor, and it wasn't - the liberal left is still spouting off their rhetoric, trying to place blame everywhere but where it solely belongs - the Middle East. I almost wish for a return to the politics of that day, because we'd be seeing a fair number of these so-called liberal "patriots" being tried for treason. You want to know which of our soldiers deserves to be punished first? Any of them that put these pictures and this information in the public eye. This is a matter that should have been handled internally, and not released until after the war was over, if ever. It's already gotten US citizens killed, and it's going to get more of them killed. That, my friends, is treason. |
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I borrowed this from another poster. I think this is a good question: Those of you outraged a the humiliation and abuse of iraqi/syrian/etc. prisoners, how do you feel about lt. col. west's treatment of his prisoner? quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- West acknowledged he allowed two soldiers to beat an Iraqi policeman who refused to reveal details of an ambush plot and fired his pistol near the man's head, threatening to kill him. The scared policeman then immediately disclosed the information, leading to the arrest of two Iraqis last August and cessation of attacks on West's 4th Infantry Division battalion. At the hearing, West was asked by his defense attorney if he would do it again. "If it's about the lives of my men and their safety, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can," he said. "But that's what's going on out there in the streets here, and that's how I feel about my boys," he told the hearing, held in one of Saddam Hussein's lavish palaces. "There is not a person in this room I would not sacrifice my life for." -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Id buy Col. West a beer anyday. That guy cares about the people under him and not his Portfolio, . Thats who you would want to have in your chain of command. Some would say what he did was wrong. Some here would say he needs to be HUNG and Shot. No that man needs to move up in pay grade and given a Damn medal. Imagine that someone in this day and age , careing more about his /or hers soldiers life than a bunch of pinko fags whinning back home about it wasn't fair and Hector Adul got his chap stick slapped off. We are at WAR people . Nothing pretty about it. Funny we can kill a family of Iraqi's in a bombing run by MISTAKE froma missel / bombe gone astary and hear nothing of it. Collateral Damage. But Bitc* slap and dress one in drag and all hell breaks loose. Im all for the great job our boysand girls are doing over there.Lets kill a few million more evil doeing ragheads,and get our folks back home. WD |
I think what he did was somewhat different. It was very clearly in the interest of extracting information for one thing, information which he had good reason to believe the Iraqi had. That incident was more violent in nature, which is a bit more excusable to a soldier in a time of war then the prison guards actions. Roughing up a prisioner physically is quite different from homo-erotic domination and humiliation. |
| It amazes me to see how many people think so little of being an American. I am proud to be an American, and part of that pride comes from knowing that we (as a nation) are better than those that would do us harm. It disgusts me to see people want to lower our standards to that of suicide bombers and WWII Nazis. We do not kill innocent civilians (like terrorists do) because we are Americans. Being an American means you are better than this. When we forget this, we lower ourselves to the levels of terrorists. I do not think American = terrorist. It's not enough to say that "The terrorist did it, so we can too". Other countries do not hate us because of what we (as individuals) do, they hate us because they see our crooked politicians and they think they represent us. You may think "How could they just be in the wrong place at the wrong time"... Well, the wrong place is their home. We are over there, not vise/versa. "They started it with 9/11"... Bull. George Jr. was already amassing forces in Kuwait to go into Irag before Sept. 11. I still think it means something to be an American. It means we do not kill innocent civilians, we don't sit back and enjoy watching our prisoners try to kill each other (by the way, maybe that's why they tend to come out of prison worse than when they went in... b/c of sorry guards watching them brutalize each other and doing nothing about it), and we do not hold an entire country (or region) at fault when a few plot against us. As Americans, we are simply better than this... |
Here I think lies the problem. Once wars have started, Americans have been little different than any other nation. (I am not pointing out these facts as an attack against Americans or the nation, but simply to show that these statements do nothold true throughout history.) "It disgusts me to see people want to lower our standards to that of suicide bombers and WWII Nazis." Don't forget that these have been several American citizens arrested for joining the guys who do suicide bombings. Thankfully not that many. These are over 1,000 documented and verified war crimes that the US commited against the German soldiers in WWII alone. Soldiers are soldiers. Where is the outcry against the US prison guards who let several thousand German POW's starve to death after the war? See my point? Hell, I won't even start with the stuff done against the Japanese. (Because I really don't care what happend to them) "We do not kill innocent civilians (like terrorists do) because we are Americans." Yeah, like the thousands of the French, German, Austrian, Belguin, Japanese, slave laborers from Eastern Europe etc. we killed while bombing our way acrosss Europe in WWII. How about all of the civilians in every war that were in the line of fire? "Other countries do not hate us because of what we (as individuals) do, they hate us because they see our crooked politicians and they think they represent us. " What? They could give a shit about the politicians and their greed. They have their own crooked politicians to deal with. What they hate, for right or wrong, is the US government as a whole trying to impose its will on their government and their lives; for right or wrong. " "They started it with 9/11"... Bull. George Jr. was already amassing forces in Kuwait to go into Irag before Sept. 11. I still think it means something to be an American." A true DU suporter if I ever saw one. I have no idea what you think being an American is. Those troops have been massed there since 1990. " It means we do not kill innocent civilians, we don't sit back and enjoy watching our prisoners try to kill each other (by the way, maybe that's why they tend to come out of prison worse than when they went in... b/c of sorry guards watching them brutalize each other and doing nothing about it), " First line already covered. The rest, I bet every prsion guard in the nation would laugh his ass off at that statement. I have a couple of friends at Mansfield and Youngstown. (The two prisons for the really bad guys here in Ohio) They would laugh for a week at this statement as it shows that you have no clue what goes on in prisons, even the ones here in the US. Prisoners come out worse because of this? LMFAO get a clue. "and we do not hold an entire country (or region) at fault when a few plot against us." No one is holding an entire nation at fault. Lets see, we HELPED the good guys in Afghanistan. We have proped up the Governmentof Pakistan, we have provided security to Jordan, Egypt & Saudi Arabia. We are doing everything in our power to warn Iran and Syria to back off so we don't need to fight against them. This war is far from over, and it will only become wider in scope. Just pray that it stayes over there in their streets and not ours. |
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Neutrino45: You're right, this is not an AK discussion. I think we're all just blowing off some steam at some of the things that are going on right now. "For" the prison gaurds or "against" them, we all just want to say our piece. obershutze916: I think I mis-spoke to some extent. When I wrote we "do not do this or that", that's not what I meant. I meant for it to just point out what we should not do. You're right, we have done all of these things. I know that too. I'm not talking about past mistakes, I'm talking about what we should/should not be doing right now. I know what goes on in prison. My comments were a response to Jicky's post on page 1 about what he saw while working in the TX DOC. Again, I did not meam that we do not actually do those things, it was an attempt to state we should not sit back and watch them brutalize each other. I know that we are doing more to help them now than after the Soviet war and after George Sr. was in office. Wer're now doing what we should have done 10+ years ago. What's this? Well, there's no agruement there. I would like to say that I still stand behind my original post, however I should have used better wording to get my ideas across. I guess that's what happens when you get home late and get on the internet @ 2:00 a.m. to start reading and posting to forums. |
Take a look at the time that I posted.  Just look at mine as a history lesson for anyone who didn't already know this. |
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I still agree with ricky101a's post in principle. While these things have happened we we are still far ahead of many nations in regards to war crimes and regard for human life. 1000 documented war crimes is a tiny amount compared to Germany, Russia, and Japan. Also, American war crimes tended to happen on an individual basis, while those of the other three above mentioned nations were often state sanctioned. As far as the WW2 stuff, I would argue that that was "total war" and that is a different kind of war then we have right now. In WW2 we were trying to smash our enemies will and ability to wage war as fast as possible and through whatever means neccesary. |
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Actually Here is someone that many here have a great respect for who actually gets it. These soldiers should not be ashamed. They did a great thing. Psywar has to be taylored to the culture of the enemy. Not based upon our morality. This was psywar pure and simple. http://www.john-ross.net/islam.htm |
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