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Posted: 4/7/2004 8:15:29 PM EDT
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www.gunsnstuff.net/FAC/images/046_01.jpg Just looked through the new FAC flyer. Holy crap! They want $410 more for a SAM-7 because they put a folding stock on it. IMHO, that is a rip off. $410 to add a folding stock, give me a break. Yes, I know you have to mill out the holes for the folding stock, but you don't have to mill out for the rear tang and butt stock. So I call close to an even wash on that one. The parts may be a little more expensive, but come on $410. No way am I gonna pay $1000 after fees for a milled folder. TRS Hi there, SSR-99. I know you can't resist this one. 
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| I think the reason is that only 100 of those are being made, not because of the work involved in making them folders. Kind of like the SA-M7 classic... the only difference in those is there 45-degree gas blocks and muzzle-nuts, but becaue they were a very limited run they fetch a much higher price. |
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Yeah, I'm sure the price is beefed up because of the limited numbers being made, but it will probably make it very hard for most of us to convince ourselves that the extra money is worth spending for it over the price of a standard one. Since so few will be made, there will be those that will just have to have it :) |
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I must admit that when I read your post concerning the price of these guns, I was quite surprized! If I were to have guessed it before reading it, I would have guessed the price to be about $200 over it's SA M-7 counterpart (which I do feel to be the best AK value on the market). I do know that the limited number makes a difference, but the almost $1000 dealer cost would make it too rich for my blood :) But again, at only 100 made of one specimen, and 200 of the other, these guns will sell :) |
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The current Russian AK-100 series type folding stock is the only one I am interested in. It is far superior and since it won't have to be removed and replaced by US fixed stocks on VEPRs, it should lead to lower costs on that rifle. AKs have gone up in cost to be US compliant. When there are fewer requirements the price should drop, not raise. Remember that this fall. I hope Arsenal starts offering the newer Russian pattern. They also need to stay competitive with folding stock models this fall or they might lose out to competitors like VEPR and Saiga who might be lowering prices when they can go back to the standard factory stock. |
Why is Ohio Rapid Fire planning on charging about $450 for their Israeli Galil receiver copy?......... Because it's American made, and the costs involved in making them here is much higher than anything the typical European AK builder pays to have their specimens produced. Why does the Firing Line charge almost $300 for their basic milled AK receiver, and almost $400 for their threaded version?.......... For the same reasons above. Why does Red Star charge about $70-$80 (?) for one of their fire control groups, when in some countries one can actually buy a complete AK for that much?.............. For the same reasons stated above. The components made here just cost much more to manufacture, and so does assembly costs (for the obvious reasons). Things like employee pay and benefits, taxes, liability insurance, machine costs, machine maintenance, location overhead, etc. Yes, other countries have some of these costs, but lets be real, they come nothing close to what it costs here in the USA. Some imported AK's may receive very little investment to make them US 922r compliant, receiving just a few, and often times mediocre US made components. But others, as the Arsenal Inc SA M-7 series, receive much more US involvement. With the SAM series, they actually make the forged and milled receiver here in America (and licensing rights and fees apply here as well, since Arsenal's receiver is licensed by the Bulgarians). Their use of a quality US made forged and milled fire control group, also adds to their costs. Their use of a quality US made (but Bulgarian licensed) stock set, adds even a bit more. How about their final AK assembly and finish, they sure can't pay their guys what they may have paid them back in Bulgaria, they would not even be able to afford to eat in this country! These are folks living in the USA, so sorry, they can't work for 90 cents an hour ;) This just scratches the surface of differences involved when making, or partially making an AK here in the US. Again, look at the American made Firing Line receivers going in the $300-$400 price range. "OR" The Ohio Rapid Fire Galil copy that will soon be released (expected to sell for $450). Are they just rip-off artists, or are these products very expensive to manufacture here? Are they honest folks that are just trying to secure some sort of a worth while profit? I would say that their prices are based on their overall costs, and are really genuine (not rip-offs). Now, that takes us back to Arsenal Inc of Nevada, which even when including their upcoming 5% price increase set to take hold this month, the price for a complete and all new forged and milled receivered SA M-7 rifle is only $570 (at dealer cost). If anything, it sounds like they are pretty low when compared to the Firing Lines or Ohio Rapid Fire stand alone receiver prices. Is this saying that the others are charging too much?........ No, I don't know what all their overhead is, but it may be saying something about Arsenal Incs prices, and that may be that they are a bit low for what they are offering. This obsevation is based on their basic SAM series, not the recently released limited versions. Arsenal Inc has been holding down on their milled SAM series prices, but they have also mentioned that profit margins have been very small. It may be that the Ohio Rapid Fire and the Firing Line firms are doing a better job at covering their profit margins, but only each company knows their own situation that intimately. I do find the basic SAM series rifles to be a bargain in their class. For anyone that has built a gun that is exactly like the SAM (or as close to it as possible), and that has used the currently available components, they can probably vouch for it not being a cheap proposition. The completely all new Bulgarian parts kit (not taken off of any used or new demilled weapon), can be had via K-VAR. One of the easiest ways to go is with their $300 set that includes the US made forged and milled fire control group, and a US made (Bulgarian licensed) polymer stock set. The milled receivers from Bulgaria are no longer imported, and the Arsenal Inc firm does not sell their Bulgarian licensed receivers seperately, so the only real alternative would be the well made (but unlicensed) Firing Line receiver (at about $300). Then, one can assemble ones own, but lets consider the costs that would be involved in outside assembly (since not all would be able to assemble their own), and assembly "is" added to the cost of an AK purchased off the dealers rack. So lets say that one gets an experienced AK builder to not only assemble the rifle completely, but also making sure that the components are phosphated "and" painted with a heat cured paint (as is done to the Arsenal SAM. So,let's say $200 for this completion service. Not adding in anything else I may have missed, we are looking at a SAM copy costing about $800. Also, the real SA M-7 series itself has that prestige of having been built under license of the Bulgarian firm (they are a licensed product), which may not be a biggy for some, but maybe more meaningful to others. Now one can look at the actual SA M-7 dealer cost of $570, and see why I find them to be a seriously good deal :) Here is another easy way of seeing how the Arsenal Inc SAM product is a bargain: If one takes the almost $300 K-VAR price tag for the all new AK kit mentioned above, and adds it to the almost $300 price tag of the Firing Line receiver, one gets about $600 total. Now, $600 by itself (with no assembly or final finishing costs being added) is more than the SAM rifle's dealer cost of $570. Paying over $500 for a US partially made AK may not be as bad as some would have you think. One just has to look at the whole picture :) |
Buddy you really should read the original post before typing a 3 page response. American made or not, there is no way that a folding stock costs an extra $410 bucks. If you think that it should cost that much more to manufacture, then you qualify as a moron. Not trying to flame, just pointing out the facts. |
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The post you quoted me on, was in response to this statement written above by another poster: "Middle East folks would laugh their turbans off if they heard what stupid Americans were willing to pay for an AK. Geez folk, in the end it's still an AK. Limited Edition AK is an oxymoron. Anybody willing to pay more than $500 for one should be shot with one." This statement is basically saying that any US made (or partially made AK) is not worth Americans paying over $500 for. I mean, even the most basic SA M-7 goes for over $500! Again, just buying one of the K-VAR kits at $300, and one of the Firing Line receivers at almost $300, will cost about $600! That price alone, without considering any assembly or finishing costs, will be more than what the basic Arsenal Inc SA M-7 sells for at dealer cost! That is only part of my example. You should read it...... long as it may be, before you decide to judge! One liners are real nice and easy to read, and many folks like to use them to express their views, but I find that explaining one's position in full makes more sense then using one liners that may not completely explain one's position. |
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Southern Shark wrote: "American made or not, there is no way that a folding stock costs an extra $410 bucks. If you think that it should cost that much more to manufacture, then you qualify as a moron. Not trying to flame, just pointing out the facts." If you would have bothered to read my other posts above, you would have noticed that I agreed with TheRealSundance about the new limited versions being too pricey (atleast IMO). Here's an exact quote of my feeling of FAC's price tag: "I must admit that when I read your post concerning the price of these guns, I was quite surprized! If I were to have guessed it before reading it, I would have guessed the price to be about $200 over it's SA M-7 counterpart (which I do feel to be the best AK value on the market)." But then when Freedom Fighter comes in and says that they should not even be over $500, when a $500 price tag would even be less than what the basic SA M-7 sells for, I felt I had to respond! Heck, even some stand alone milled receivers from other makers sell for almost that much! I just believe he is wrong to think the way he does, and I lay out my case for why I feel the way I do. Anything wrong with that?!!! So in the end, your assuming that I agreed with FAC's price tag on these new limited version Arsenal Inc AK's. Well, using "your" own words, if you believe that, then it may qualify you as a moron. Not trying to flame, just pointing out the facts. :) |
| The Galil recievers that ORF is making costs a pretty penny because the market is willing to pay that price due to the high demand for a Galil clone. Same can't be said for so called "limited edition" AK's such as the SAM7 Classic. The parts to it aren't rare and the fit and finish are the same as a standard SAM7, but people still buy them. Arsenal is encouraged by this stupidity so now they release another 'limited edition' fixed underfolder for $900+ dealer cost. Tell me how the Classic is worth $300-$400 more than a standard SAM7? The reciever is the same and so is the internal parts. The only difference is the barrel, which is just the heavy type with a nut and 45 block. The same could be said for the SSR-99. The parts are not rare and the fit and finish is nothing beyond the SSR-85 or SSR-56. Like Ron, the president of Arsenal USA said to me one, "We make AK's not swiss watches". Heck anyone can build a SSR-99. So why does it cost $900-$1000? Because it was build buy G-Tech and they only made a few of them. So what? It's still a easily made AK, with parts and finish that shouldn't justify a price of more than $500. In my book the SLR101, which uses US made forged FCG and furniture, is the best deal. |
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Let me first strike down a small error on your part, just a technicality, but it may be important info to some folks. You wrote this: "In my book the SLR101, which uses US made forged FCG and furniture, is the best deal" Actually, the SAM series (using an unmodified semi auto double stack Bulgarian licensed milled receiver), is Arsenal Inc's only series guaranteed to have an all forged and milled FCG. For the most part, the SLR-101 double stack version AK's had a forged and milled hammer and disconnector, but oftentimes had a single hook investment cast trigger. With that out of the way, let me proceed: What part of this statement that I made earlier did you not understand: "I must admit that when I read your post concerning the price of these guns, I was quite surprized! If I were to have guessed it before reading it, I would have guessed the price to be about $200 over it's SA M-7 counterpart (which I do feel to be the best AK value on the market)" That does not sound in any way like I'm endorsing the FAC price tag of the new variants. I also mention that I believe the limited Arsenal Inc run of these guns will find a home, but only because someone will just have to have them, and because they are short in total numbers. But again, to that I said, "they are too rich for my blood" As for the SSR-99, only 252 were manufactured. Though a ton of other guns can look almost exactly like them, the actual SSR-99 model numbers only 252. With that said, the cost of an SSR-99 was $599 dealer cost through Interstate Arms. The going price today is,........ whatever the second hand market will bear. What is that you say? Well whatever someone is willing to pay. Someone may not want to pay more for a pristine version, than what Interstate sold them for when they were available new. On the other hand, other's may be willing to pay more to get one. They may simply really want one, and getting a pristine specimen may lead them to pay more than someone else would. I'm sure I don't have to explain to you how the market works....... right?! Anyhows, we are discussing currently offered variants, so nice one on trying to change the subject matter :) Again, take the all new Bulgarian parts set offered by K-VAR (a $300 kit that includes all US needed parts), and add that to a Firing Line milled receiver, and one gets a $600 price tag. This $600 does not include assembly or final finishing, yet you say that Arsenal Inc's basic SA M-7 is not worth the dealer cost of $570!! This $570 price tag already includes their new price hike. Then you said this: "The Galil recievers that ORF is making costs a pretty penny because the market is willing to pay that price due to the high demand for a Galil clone." So are you saying that the ORF folks are lying when they say that the mark up is mostly based on their overall costs? Please, your not in their shoes to claim such things. Are you also saying the same thing about the Firing Lines stand alone receivers, which are right in the $300-$400 price range?......... Again, your not in their shoes to be able to say that. Then you even add in the SLR-101 series, which you know as well as I do, is a Bulgarian made rifle that is modified here in the USA (including some modifications to the already manufactured receiver). Yes, the SLR-101's are a good value, but the total costs in manufacturing the Arsenal of Nevada SAM receiver and their overall costs for producing these guns, is going to be more than what it costs them to bring in and modify the SLR-101's. Common sense tells us that there will be a price difference between the SLR-101 and the SAM-series. Nice one again on trying to focus on other variants (the SLR-101 and SSR series weapons), rather than the subject at hand, that being the SAM rifle series which are built on the American made (but Bulgarian licensed) forged and milled receiver. Never seems to amaze me on how distortion can be used to explain someone's point of view :) I hate to bring the same facts up again, and again, but since your not understanding it, I will "AGAIN" repeat it! If any one of us went out on the market today to look to buy currently offered components to build a milled AK variant that is based on the SAM (and yes, using a milled American receiver), then the only choice would be the Firing Line's receiver. Then, take and buy a completely new Bulgarian kit that has all the required components in it ($300 via K-VAR). Now, even without adding any costs for assembly or finishing, one still gets hit with a $600 price tag!!! Yes sir-ree, the SA M-7, with it's more costly receiver and assembly over a SLR-101, is even more of a true bargain (IMO)! One must look at that company's probable overall costs in making these weapons. My previous statements in above posts had already showed that I find their new limited production specimens to be priced too high (via FAC). But heck, that's not hard to agree with, since one can add in just another $100 or so, and be able to purchase two basic SA M-7 rifles! |
If you want people to understand you, learn to write clearly and succinctly. You rambled on for several pages, when you could have made the point in one paragraph. I used to grade papers in law school for the writing program. I would have given you a "C" without reading a word that you had written. |
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You wrote: "If you want people to understand you, learn to write clearly and succinctly. You rambled on for several pages, when you could have made the point in one paragraph. I used to grade papers in law school for the writing program. I would have given you a "C" without reading a word that you had written." LOL!!! :) Damn, all you had to understand was this: "I must admit that when I read your post concerning the price of these guns, I was quite surprized! If I were to have guessed it before reading it, I would have guessed the price to be about $200 over it's SA M-7 counterpart" So that alone way up there in this thread, would have given you my feelings on the FAC pricing of these weapons. Guess that was too difficult for you to understand. If you just decided to skip it, and therefore judge me only by my later post, then that's your fault, not mine! So you basically admit to assuming something without knowing the facts. If you did not understand what I was trying to say, well, you should have asked. It would have avoided your "assuming" anything.........LOL!!! :) It is really amazing to see what some people will resort to when they have lost the argument. Please!!!!! LOL!!! |
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The real insult is the 410 extra dollars for a FIXED folding stock. Probably why the only are making 100 of them. I hope in the fall they will be availiabe with the REAL folding stock for less than that. Also i think FAC has a little to do with the high price. Who else sells Arsenal?? Have you seen the rifles that are made on Arsenal recivers with polytec parts in the shotgun news. They are a good deal, Threaded muzzle and all. |
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