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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Using AK for Home Defense (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/1/2009 10:42:26 AM EDT
| Anyone use one for this. My concern is ricocheting bullets. Are there any rounds to shoot in a house that if they hit a wall would just dissinegrate. They would also have to make a bad guy stop being bad. Thanks, Bud |
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You need not be worried about ricochets with a 7.62X39 inside a house unless all your domicile's interior walls are made of cinder block/concrete. If your house is made from 2X4 stud and drywall, which about 95% of the houses in America are, your 7.62X39 rounds will pass conveniently straight through the drywall and anyone that happens to be on the other side of it as well (i.e. guests, family members, neighbors, etc.). And all that combined with the possibility of someone snatching the business end of it from around a corner as you creep through your house.
You need to get yourself a pistol, dude. If you have more than a half dozen acres of property a Kalashnikov might be good for home defence but that's about it. I have shotguns, SMG's, M4's, Kalashnikovs, etc. They're all housed conveniently in a locked gun cabinet that's not impenetrable but would take a few minutes with power tools to break into. A half hour to an hour with hand tools. My go to gun is a Glock .40 S&W with Glock manufactured flashlight that attaches to the underside of the frame. Instantly comes right off and on. No safety. No hammer. No fuss. Perfect for waking out of a dead sleep resulting from a bump in the night that shouldn't be there. |
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5.45 surplus shot from a Krinkov 8.25 inch barrel from 18 yards
Front of Cinder block 
Rear of 1st cinder block w/ recovered bullet 
Did the same test w/ weighted Cinder block, resulted in more of a nick on the 2nd block. Even w/ a Krinkov penetration is an issue.... X39 penetrated ~ the same, but displayed aLOT more energy. |
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I remember Rube posting that cinder block post a while back, now that he mentioned it. He's right! Weren't you the one that conducted it? If so, thanks. I got a lot out of that test. I've actually shot through cinder block with a 7.62 round before (although never tried with 5.45). I believe that's how the post started in the first place. I mentioned that an AK could slice through cinder and somebody told me how full of shit I was. Honestly, I think a lotta people don't realize just how soft cinder block is.
The point I'm making is a Kalashnikov of ANY kind, while better than nothing, would be one of my last picks for home defence. A pistol in a hefty caliber but relatively low velocity is always your best bet. Both .45 and .40 have proven to work well in this arena as they do a great job at incapacitating the assailant without overpentration issues. 9mm, on the other hand, tends to have issue with penetration. I understand this isn't as prevalent with a sem-jacketed hollow-point but .45 still remains your optimum choice (although, as I noted before mine is .40 yet I do own a 1911 in .45). Low and slow, that's the ticket. This isn't as much of an issue if you live alone but I still am a firm believer that long guns are your last choice for home defense. If I had a dime for ever time I've heard somebody over the years spout off about how a 12 gauge shotgun is the cure-all/end-all for home defence I'd be rich. Everything you've heard about them is wrong. You're seeing shotguns used less and less these days. Honestly, I'd take a 9mm subgun over any shotgun, rifle, or carbine. Get yourself some kind of pistol. It'll make your life a lot easier and possibly even make your direct perimeter a little safer. |
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I remember Rube posting that cinder block post a while back, now that he mentioned it. He's right! Weren't you the one that conducted it? If so, thanks. I got a lot out of that test. I've actually shot through cinder block with a 7.62 round before (although never tried with 5.45). I believe that's how the post started in the first place. I mentioned that an AK could slice through cinder and somebody told me how full of shit I was. Honestly, I think a lotta people don't realize just how soft cinder block is.  Thanks! Me and Mike (another member) had alot of fun that day. But, no one was right about the penetration that Day I expected more and didnt expect the 5.45 to keep up with the X39. That reminds me, i forgot to test the 60grain 5.45 on the cinderblocks.
XD 9 here and soon w/ Corbon 115 +P for home protection. Though, i sometimes keep an AK near  Usually when my daughter is not home.
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If I had a dime for ever time I've heard somebody over the years spout off about how a 12 gauge shotgun is the cure-all/end-all for home defence I'd be rich. Everything you've heard about them is wrong. You're seeing shotguns used less and less these days. Honestly, I'd take a 9mm subgun over any shotgun, rifle, or carbine. While it isn't a "cure-all/end-all" weapon, the 12 ga. shotgun is a damn effective home defender when used properly. Absolutely nothing loaded in a 9mm, .40 S&W or .45 ACP will compare to the fight stopping ability of fifteen .33" pellets my shotgun launches with each pull of the trigger. Compare ballistic gel wound profiles or examine real world medical reports, it makes no difference. Handguns just aren't in the same league. A quality HD shotgun is also a lot cheaper than most handguns or carbines reliable enough to count-on for HD purposes. Shotgun shells are also relatively inexpensive and often far more available than carbine or handgun defensive loads. (Every Wal Mart in America carries buckshot. Try finding .223/5.56 or handgun JHP's on those same shelves. Even online specialty vendors have difficulty keeping carbine and handgun ammo in stock. And when they do, expect to pay through the nose.) Since when are shotguns "used less and less these days?" There are more models intended for defensive use, from more manufacturers, than ever before. If there was no market, the guns wouldn't be built. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, but yours about 9mm subguns is once again in the minority. SWAT teams and similar organizations across the country have gone full speed ahead in retiring their MP5's for short barreled 5.56mm carbines. Why? Better terminal performance on bad guys with less chance for potentially deadly perforation of walls and doors. And they almost always have a shotgun or two in the stack as well. 
Back to the OP: Many people do use AK's for home defense. As others have noted, a 7.62 AK is going to blow holes through all common building materials. The new Hornady load with V-Max bullets may be a bit less penetrative than the typical FMJ but probably not enough so to make it a first choice for home defense. The 5.45 FMJ as shown in the photos above won't be a whole lot better than 7.62 FMJ but I'd be willing to guess the Hornady V-Max offering may be a fairly good choice. Only time and testing will tell that tale. A 5.56 NATO AK is in my opinion your best choice in HD carbines. Why? The wide selection of ammo allows you to tailor your rounds to your specific situation. Live in the city? Try one of the lighter weight HP loads to reduce building perforation. Foresee a need for some more range? 60+ grain SP's or BTHP's are hard to beat. Flexibility is key to the 5.56 carbine's popularity. |
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Does no one bother to ever actually do any research?
This has been hashed out time and time again: pistols, rifles, and shotguns will virtually all shoot through walls. And the wall behind it. And the wall behind that one. Anddd the wall behind that one. Don't matter which you use (unless you're shooting birdshot, in which case you're an idiot), you're going to penetrate interior walls, and probably exterior ones too for that matter. Deal with it. And I'd love to see the guy who's afraid of having a long gun pulled from his hands, trying to wrestle with an intruder for control over his pistol. Guess what-when you go around a corner, your muzzle is still out aways from your body, no matter if you're holding a pistol or a rifle. Worry about better things. There's a reason why people like Clint Smith say that handguns are for fighting your way back to your rifle (which you shouldn't have been without in the first place). |
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Fun stuff.. X39 and 5.45 dont keep going like everyone thinks they do
We tried to cheaply put together an exterior wall, but cut a few corners 
7 yards away w/ a romy using 123gr Barnaul..... It damn near came back 
Tried this too 
End result for X39 from 7yards 
End result for 5.45 
Brick shot by 5.45 and X39 5.45 vs Brick 
X39 vs Brick 
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Get a Saiga 12 for home defense and covert it to its proper pistol grip configuration. My S12 is close to the bed with a 10 round mag of 3" magnum 00 buck ready to go and another 10 round mag of 12 gauge slugs in case I want to fire a few rounds at the get away vehicle! 
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The only problem with the Saiga mags is the springs are not the strongest especially with shells in them continually. You would be much better off with a 12ga with a regular tube mag, I had shells in my HD shotgun for 10years and the spring was still very strong, I just usually don't load it full leave a shell or two out, and have a shell carrier for reloading. If I were going to use a Saiga I would make sure and change out the mag springs every year, if kept loaded.
The best HD firearm is going to be a 12 ga shotgun unless you live out in the country, alone, and not worried about shooting through multiple walls. |
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something with a silencer and a laser sight, shoot at a downward angle. make sure where you are shooting in relation to people in your house. (so you will not hurt friendly people)
silencer so you will not have hearing damage. laser so you know what you are aiming at when you are half awake. have the "what-if game" out of your mind and already solved. saiga 12s are good, just get the metal shells so they will not flatten out. |
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The only problem with the Saiga mags is the springs are not the strongest especially with shells in them continually. You would be much better off with a 12ga with a regular tube mag, I had shells in my HD shotgun for 10years and the spring was still very strong, I just usually don't load it full leave a shell or two out, and have a shell carrier for reloading. If I were going to use a Saiga I would make sure and change out the mag springs every year, if kept loaded. The best HD firearm is going to be a 12 ga shotgun unless you live out in the country, alone, and not worried about shooting through multiple walls. Any metallurgist will tell you that the length of time a spring is compressed has no impact on its ability to return to its original length/strength. It is the constant compressing/expanding that damages springs (or over compression which wouldn't be an issue here). |
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What you need for home defense is a quality .357 with a 4 inch barrel. Assault rifles and semi-auto shotguns are NOT what you need when things go bump in the night, When things go bump in the night, you need the most firepower you are capable of accurately employing in the fight. I'm not aware of any home invasion in which the victims felt they had too much firepower on hand. If 3-4 guys are in your house, 6 rounds isn't very much. eta: I have memories of staring at my door through the sites of a 9mm, watching the door bend each time a guy rammed it with his body screaming about how he was going to kill me. My only thought was my regret that my SKS and L1A1 were in my truck and inaccessible at that time. Luckily the police showed up just in time. Use whatever you are most comfortable with, but for me, it will always be a longarm. |
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The only problem with the Saiga mags is the springs are not the strongest especially with shells in them continually. You would be much better off with a 12ga with a regular tube mag, I had shells in my HD shotgun for 10years and the spring was still very strong, I just usually don't load it full leave a shell or two out, and have a shell carrier for reloading. If I were going to use a Saiga I would make sure and change out the mag springs every year, if kept loaded. The best HD firearm is going to be a 12 ga shotgun unless you live out in the country, alone, and not worried about shooting through multiple walls. Any metallurgist will tell you that the length of time a spring is compressed has no impact on its ability to return to its original length/strength. It is the constant compressing/expanding that damages springs (or over compression which wouldn't be an issue here). This metallurgist endorses the above message. Fatigue is caused by CYCLING the spring not holding it under constant load within its design parameters. My HD longarm is a Mossy 500 (tubefed). The wife's is a pistol-grip converted Saiga 410 with all the good gadgets (light, laser, red dot, shark muzzle brake). Either tubefed or detachable magazine works fine. I have even seen pump-action shotties jam before (happened to me while duck hunting). My pistol is a BACK-UP to my shotgun. As stated earlier, no handgun can compete with the raw lead output of a shotgun. As to the penetration issue - anything that won't penetrate multiple walls also won't penetrate deep enough in the BG to disable him. You're going to have penetration issues - deal with it. An AK would make a fine HD longarm. A Krinkov SBR in 7.62x39 seems almost ideal. |
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'(unless you're shooting birdshot, in which case you're an idiot'
Au contraire. A high-flying waterfowl is a bird, isn't it? You really would not want to be hit with this at most any range, but at home defense range it is deadly. I guess 'deadly' is a bit of an understatement here: Remington Premier Hevi-Shot Nitro Magnum 1 1/4 oz #4, 2 3/4". My shotgun is a Remington 1187 'Police', Parkerized, 18" barrel with rifle sights, pistol-grip syn buttstock, syn fore end and extended magazine. |
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What you need for home defense is a quality .357 with a 4 inch barrel. Assault rifles and semi-auto shotguns are NOT what you need when things go bump in the night, When things go bump in the night, you need the most firepower you are capable of accurately employing in the fight. I'm not aware of any home invasion in which the victims felt they had too much firepower on hand. If 3-4 guys are in your house, 6 rounds isn't very much. eta: I have memories of staring at my door through the sites of a 9mm, watching the door bend each time a guy rammed it with his body screaming about how he was going to kill me. My only thought was my regret that my SKS and L1A1 were in my truck and inaccessible at that time. Luckily the police showed up just in time. Use whatever you are most comfortable with, but for me, it will always be a longarm. Do you realize just how much you risk fighting over a long gun at arms reach distance?? Its a helluva lot easier for one of those 4 guys to latch onto that AK as you come around a blind corner and if he does the other 3 would be on you in a heartbeat! Now....you have 4 badguys that have a loaded AK to contend with! Lets be realistic here, a hoard of zombie bikers is NOT what you need to be prepared for and chances are that you'd be facing 1 or 2 guys at the outside and be engaging them at extreme close quarters! Picture a young DA holding up an AK 47 in front of the jurors as they all stare at you in horror! People just watch way to many movies these days........ |
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Get a Saiga 12 for home defense and covert it to its proper pistol grip configuration. My S12 is close to the bed with a 10 round mag of 3" magnum 00 buck ready to go and another 10 round mag of 12 gauge slugs in case I want to fire a few rounds at the get away vehicle! Same here but mag 2 has that .63 caliber pumpkin ball with six no. 1 balls. Centurian defense or something... |
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What you need for home defense is a quality .357 with a 4 inch barrel. Assault rifles and semi-auto shotguns are NOT what you need when things go bump in the night, When things go bump in the night, you need the most firepower you are capable of accurately employing in the fight. I'm not aware of any home invasion in which the victims felt they had too much firepower on hand. If 3-4 guys are in your house, 6 rounds isn't very much. eta: I have memories of staring at my door through the sites of a 9mm, watching the door bend each time a guy rammed it with his body screaming about how he was going to kill me. My only thought was my regret that my SKS and L1A1 were in my truck and inaccessible at that time. Luckily the police showed up just in time. Use whatever you are most comfortable with, but for me, it will always be a longarm. Do you realize just how much you risk fighting over a long gun at arms reach distance?? Its a helluva lot easier for one of those 4 guys to latch onto that AK as you come around a blind corner and if he does the other 3 would be on you in a heartbeat! Now....you have 4 badguys that have a loaded AK to contend with! Lets be realistic here, a hoard of zombie bikers is NOT what you need to be prepared for and chances are that you'd be facing 1 or 2 guys at the outside and be engaging them at extreme close quarters! Picture a young DA holding up an AK 47 in front of the jurors as they all stare at you in horror! People just watch way to many movies these days........ Oh yeah, it's much easier for them to take a long gun out of your hands then knock a pistol out 
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Birdshot does make a ragged hole up close. The problem is it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Exactly! Isn't that what we are after?.. We don't want it to penetrate that much (i.e walls etc.). Sounds like a happy medium.. right? Birdshot is a POOR choice PERIOD. There is a reason it is called BIRDshot 
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Birdshot does make a ragged hole up close. The problem is it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Exactly! Isn't that what we are after?.. We don't want it to penetrate that much (i.e walls etc.). Sounds like a happy medium.. right? Birdshot is a POOR choice PERIOD. There is a reason it is called BIRDshot Ummmm.. you missed the point here.. I know it's BIRDshot.. but it makes a BIG hole in someone at close ranges and will limit penetration concerns.. Glaser Saftey slugs ring a bell??.. we shot a dead pig w/ #7 and let me tell ya.. what a mess.. made me a believer! Do you want to take a chance and have a pissed-off home owner sending that at you close range?.. The key point here is CLOSE RANGE COMBAT... We're talking about rooms no bigger than the average living room.. Not a gymnasium (different story) The Remington 870P is the standard issue shotgun for my dept. We use #7 birdshot and 00 buck.. Why do you suppose we use #7?? .... It (and 00 buck)are the standard load (#7 preferred) when deploying the 870P in CQB in a prison riot inside in facility (corridors, cell blocks etc.) |
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Good fucking grief! Some of you folks need to do more fucking reading.
All pistol rounds have an issue with overpenetration should you miss. .45acp, .40S&W, 9mm It doesnt matter the caliber. There 's a reason PDs dont use MP5s for patrol or SWAT work anymore. Birdshot is never a good choice. Ever. It isnt the size of a hole you put in a man, its where, and how deep. Deeper is better, always. Shotguns are overated as home defense weapons. Always have been, always will be. They will work, but they arent magic, and they have serious drawbacks that most shooters dont comprehend. An AK in 7.62x39, with a good load is a fine hoime defense weapon. You folks need to stop worrying about missing and start worrying about hitting. Put meat on the table! Get your asses out to the range and shoot. Shoot on the move, at a moving target, etc. Take a course. Teach your kids, if you have them, that at the first sound of trouble to get under their beds. Eliminate them as best you can from the equation that is a gun battle. BTW, I live in Dallas, TX, and stay in West, Texas often. The AK works for me in both locales. I have shot the shit out of my uncles old house in Ovilla, TX, you'd be surprised how well the AK with a good bullet works inside the house. It doesnt go through all the walls you think it would. |
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Birdshot does make a ragged hole up close. The problem is it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Exactly! Isn't that what we are after?.. We don't want it to penetrate that much (i.e walls etc.). Sounds like a happy medium.. right? Birdshot is a POOR choice PERIOD. There is a reason it is called BIRDshot Ummmm.. you missed the point here.. I know it's BIRDshot.. but it makes a BIG hole in someone at close ranges and will limit penetration concerns.. Glaser Saftey slugs ring a bell??.. we shot a dead pig w/ #7 and let me tell ya.. what a mess.. made me a believer! Do you want to take a chance and have a pissed-off home owner sending that at you close range?.. The key point here is CLOSE RANGE COMBAT... We're talking about rooms no bigger than the average living room.. Not a gymnasium (different story) The Remington 870P is the standard issue shotgun for my dept. We use #7 birdshot and 00 buck.. Why do you suppose we use #7?? .... It (and 00 buck)are the standard load (#7 preferred) when deploying the 870P in CQB in a prison riot inside in facility (corridors, cell blocks etc.) Do pigs wear clothing? Do pigs wear leather jackets? If I have to choose between someone shooting at me with #7 or ANY pistol caliber, including .22lr, I would choose number #7. If you are concerned about over penetration, I suggest a .223 in 55 grains, or with a frangible bullet. You are extremely misinformed in this kind of information. Using birdshot to shoot at a human is a mutilating procedure. You will make a big mess with little effect. Can you kill someone with birdshot at close range? Sure. Same can be said of .22lr, or even a decent air rifle though. Any round capable of killing a human being (read penetrate 9-13" of bone and flesh) will also penetrate through a piece of drywall. There is no magic to that. Please do some more reading on these subjects before touting birdshot as a CQC round. Yes you are wrong, so please stop making a fool of yourself by furthering this misinformation. Start Here |
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Good fucking grief! Some of you folks need to do more fucking reading. All pistol rounds have an issue with overpenetration should you miss. .45acp, .40S&W, 9mm It doesnt matter the caliber. There 's a reason PDs dont use MP5s for patrol or SWAT work anymore. Birdshot is never a good choice. Ever. It isnt the size of a hole you put in a man, its where, and how deep. Deeper is better, always. Shotguns are overated as home defense weapons. Always have been, always will be. They will work, but they arent magic, and they have serious drawbacks that most shooters dont comprehend. An AK in 7.62x39, with a good load is a fine hoime defense weapon. You folks need to stop worrying about missing and start worrying about hitting. Put meat on the table! Get your asses out to the range and shoot. Shoot on the move, at a moving target, etc. Take a course. Teach your kids, if you have them, that at the first sound of trouble to get under their beds. Eliminate them as best you can from the equation that is a gun battle. BTW, I live in Dallas, TX, and stay in West, Texas often. The AK works for me in both locales. I have shot the shit out of my uncles old house in Ovilla, TX, you'd be surprised how well the AK with a good bullet works inside the house. It doesnt go through all the walls you think it would. This is solid info. Not some detention officer myths. |
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Good fucking grief! Some of you folks need to do more fucking reading. All pistol rounds have an issue with overpenetration should you miss. .45acp, .40S&W, 9mm It doesnt matter the caliber. There 's a reason PDs dont use MP5s for patrol or SWAT work anymore. Birdshot is never a good choice. Ever. It isnt the size of a hole you put in a man, its where, and how deep. Deeper is better, always. Shotguns are overated as home defense weapons. Always have been, always will be. They will work, but they arent magic, and they have serious drawbacks that most shooters dont comprehend. An AK in 7.62x39, with a good load is a fine hoime defense weapon. You folks need to stop worrying about missing and start worrying about hitting. Put meat on the table! Get your asses out to the range and shoot. Shoot on the move, at a moving target, etc. Take a course. Teach your kids, if you have them, that at the first sound of trouble to get under their beds. Eliminate them as best you can from the equation that is a gun battle. BTW, I live in Dallas, TX, and stay in West, Texas often. The AK works for me in both locales. I have shot the shit out of my uncles old house in Ovilla, TX, you'd be surprised how well the AK with a good bullet works inside the house. It doesnt go through all the walls you think it would. Good points.. |
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Birdshot does make a ragged hole up close. The problem is it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Exactly! Isn't that what we are after?.. We don't want it to penetrate that much (i.e walls etc.). Sounds like a happy medium.. right? Birdshot is a POOR choice PERIOD. There is a reason it is called BIRDshot Ummmm.. you missed the point here.. I know it's BIRDshot.. but it makes a BIG hole in someone at close ranges and will limit penetration concerns.. Glaser Saftey slugs ring a bell??.. we shot a dead pig w/ #7 and let me tell ya.. what a mess.. made me a believer! Do you want to take a chance and have a pissed-off home owner sending that at you close range?.. The key point here is CLOSE RANGE COMBAT... We're talking about rooms no bigger than the average living room.. Not a gymnasium (different story) The Remington 870P is the standard issue shotgun for my dept. We use #7 birdshot and 00 buck.. Why do you suppose we use #7?? .... It (and 00 buck)are the standard load (#7 preferred) when deploying the 870P in CQB in a prison riot inside in facility (corridors, cell blocks etc.) Do pigs wear clothing? Do pigs wear leather jackets? If I have to choose between someone shooting at me with #7 or ANY pistol caliber, including .22lr, I would choose number #7. If you are concerned about over penetration, I suggest a .223 in 55 grains, or with a frangible bullet. You are extremely misinformed in this kind of information. Using birdshot to shoot at a human is a mutilating procedure. You will make a big mess with little effect. Can you kill someone with birdshot at close range? Sure. Same can be said of .22lr, or even a decent air rifle though. Any round capable of killing a human being (read penetrate 9-13" of bone and flesh) will also penetrate through a piece of drywall. There is no magic to that. Please do some more reading on these subjects before touting birdshot as a CQC round. Yes you are wrong, so please stop making a fool of yourself by furthering this misinformation. Start Here Easy Tackleberry.. and yes.. I will call you Frances..FRANCES! What the hell are you expecting to go after in your house!? Meth-crazed zombies with body armor??! The whole point of my post was OVER-PENETRATION you fool! Guess my state agency knows nadda on this subject. I will bet you one thing.. You will NOT be getting back up after taking a chest-load of #7 at 10 feet from me.. and if ya do?.. Hell! I will just shoot yer ass again because you were the fool not to stay down... shotguns hold more than one round dumb-ass. Last time I checked.. Big Mess = A dead or howling-in-agony perp. I likes messes.. 
By the way.. my first choice is my 84S.. |
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Good fucking grief! Some of you folks need to do more fucking reading. All pistol rounds have an issue with overpenetration should you miss. .45acp, .40S&W, 9mm It doesnt matter the caliber. There 's a reason PDs dont use MP5s for patrol or SWAT work anymore. Birdshot is never a good choice. Ever. It isnt the size of a hole you put in a man, its where, and how deep. Deeper is better, always. Shotguns are overated as home defense weapons. Always have been, always will be. They will work, but they arent magic, and they have serious drawbacks that most shooters dont comprehend. An AK in 7.62x39, with a good load is a fine hoime defense weapon. You folks need to stop worrying about missing and start worrying about hitting. Put meat on the table! Get your asses out to the range and shoot. Shoot on the move, at a moving target, etc. Take a course. Teach your kids, if you have them, that at the first sound of trouble to get under their beds. Eliminate them as best you can from the equation that is a gun battle. BTW, I live in Dallas, TX, and stay in West, Texas often. The AK works for me in both locales. I have shot the shit out of my uncles old house in Ovilla, TX, you'd be surprised how well the AK with a good bullet works inside the house. It doesnt go through all the walls you think it would. This is solid info. Not some detention officer myths. Blow me.. better tell NYState to re-train all their C.O.s and state police.. Opinions are like assholes.. everyone has one.. todays ideas will be tomorrows trash.. Do you write policy for any federal or state agency on this subject? Do you work in the capacity as a WTO for said agencies? Nope.. didn't think so.. stop being a coat tail grabber and get your own ideas ya parrot.. |
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Good fucking grief! Some of you folks need to do more fucking reading. All pistol rounds have an issue with overpenetration should you miss. .45acp, .40S&W, 9mm It doesnt matter the caliber. There 's a reason PDs dont use MP5s for patrol or SWAT work anymore. Birdshot is never a good choice. Ever. It isnt the size of a hole you put in a man, its where, and how deep. Deeper is better, always. Shotguns are overated as home defense weapons. Always have been, always will be. They will work, but they arent magic, and they have serious drawbacks that most shooters dont comprehend. An AK in 7.62x39, with a good load is a fine hoime defense weapon. You folks need to stop worrying about missing and start worrying about hitting. Put meat on the table! Get your asses out to the range and shoot. Shoot on the move, at a moving target, etc. Take a course. Teach your kids, if you have them, that at the first sound of trouble to get under their beds. Eliminate them as best you can from the equation that is a gun battle. BTW, I live in Dallas, TX, and stay in West, Texas often. The AK works for me in both locales. I have shot the shit out of my uncles old house in Ovilla, TX, you'd be surprised how well the AK with a good bullet works inside the house. It doesnt go through all the walls you think it would. This is solid info. Not some detention officer myths. Blow me.. better tell NYState to re-train all their C.O.s and state police.. Opinions are like assholes.. everyone has one.. todays ideas will be tomorrows trash.. Do you write policy for any federal or state agency on this subject? Do you work in the capacity as a WTO for said agencies? Nope.. didn't think so.. stop being a coat tail grabber and get your own ideas ya parrot.. Getting advice from a federal agency is about as safe and useful as getting your medicine from a witchdoctor. |
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Birdshot does make a ragged hole up close. The problem is it doesn't penetrate deep enough. Exactly! Isn't that what we are after?.. We don't want it to penetrate that much (i.e walls etc.). Sounds like a happy medium.. right? Birdshot is a POOR choice PERIOD. There is a reason it is called BIRDshot Ummmm.. you missed the point here.. I know it's BIRDshot.. but it makes a BIG hole in someone at close ranges and will limit penetration concerns.. Glaser Saftey slugs ring a bell??.. we shot a dead pig w/ #7 and let me tell ya.. what a mess.. made me a believer! Do you want to take a chance and have a pissed-off home owner sending that at you close range?.. The key point here is CLOSE RANGE COMBAT... We're talking about rooms no bigger than the average living room.. Not a gymnasium (different story) The Remington 870P is the standard issue shotgun for my dept. We use #7 birdshot and 00 buck.. Why do you suppose we use #7?? .... It (and 00 buck)are the standard load (#7 preferred) when deploying the 870P in CQB in a prison riot inside in facility (corridors, cell blocks etc.) Do pigs wear clothing? Do pigs wear leather jackets? If I have to choose between someone shooting at me with #7 or ANY pistol caliber, including .22lr, I would choose number #7. If you are concerned about over penetration, I suggest a .223 in 55 grains, or with a frangible bullet. You are extremely misinformed in this kind of information. Using birdshot to shoot at a human is a mutilating procedure. You will make a big mess with little effect. Can you kill someone with birdshot at close range? Sure. Same can be said of .22lr, or even a decent air rifle though. Any round capable of killing a human being (read penetrate 9-13" of bone and flesh) will also penetrate through a piece of drywall. There is no magic to that. Please do some more reading on these subjects before touting birdshot as a CQC round. Yes you are wrong, so please stop making a fool of yourself by furthering this misinformation. Start Here Easy Tackleberry.. and yes.. I will call you Frances..FRANCES! What the hell are you expecting to go after in your house!? Meth-crazed zombies with body armor??! The whole point of my post was OVER-PENETRATION you fool! Guess my state agency knows nadda on this subject. I will bet you one thing.. You will NOT be getting back up after taking a chest-load of #7 at 10 feet from me.. and if ya do?.. Hell! I will just shoot yer ass again because you were the fool not to stay down... shotguns hold more than one round dumb-ass. Last time I checked.. Big Mess = A dead or howling-in-agony perp. I likes messes..
By the way.. my first choice is my 84S.. Personal insults are tools of the weak minded, so I won't engage you like that. 1. People wear clothing. Denim or leather makes an excellent obstacle and will absorb a lot of energy. To retain energy you need MASS, which little tiny pellets do not have. 2. If you shoot someone in the sternum with #7 birdshot the chances of them being killed instantly are slim to none, as the sternum protects vital organs and birdshot will have a tough time penetrating a human sternum at that distance. Will you hit a lung and make breathing difficult? Maybe. If you expect someone to just roll over and give up after being shot think again. 3. If you think that someone breaking into your house is not armed, you are the fool. You shoot once, they see your weapon come up, and turn sideways, your birdshot strikes their shoulder and rips the the deltoid muscle from the bone. With his other arm your intruder has drawn his pistol and is now launching rounds towards you. You either keep pumping your shotgun and shooting him with BBs or you look for cover. If you stand your ground you will take rounds from the intruders gun. Who dies first? You or him? What about your family? You decide to find cover. You are now retreating in your home, while the intruder is wounded, angry and violent. What about your family? Your information is piss poor and you are too prideful to admit it. State agencies are often decades behind the learning curve. Using them as a reference proves ZERO. Again, there is no magic. A round with enough energy and penetration to RELIABLY stop a human will go through sheetrock. Don't forget, criminals have guns too. If you are in a prison where you are certain your targets don't have a firearm, and you don't care about killing them, you should be using bean bags or gas. Shotguns with buckshot can be good HD guns, but there ARE BETTER CHOICES. I also urge you to find data concerning a homeowner firing in self defense and injuring a bystander because of overpenetration. Using scientific data is not parroting, it's called LEARNING. That is how humans are able to advance, they pass information to each other. Seriously, look at some DATA please. Here And Here |
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I feel a AK loaded with 123 GR. V-Max or Corbon 125GR. JHP would be a great option for home defense. Penetration of these rounds in ballistic gelatin is somewhere in the area of 12".
I beleive Magsafe makes a highly frangible load thats supposed to reliably cycle in the AK, but I know nothing performance wise about that round. As for the overpenetration issue, if you miss yes it can pass through walls ending up outside, but so will a .45 ACP. However, if you plan on using a FMJ type load in a highly populated area then other options should be considered. I think birdshot is a viable close quarters load, but I would much rather have something more powerful. I've come across law enforcement readings where close up blasts of #4 buckshot didn't have enough penetration so I definately wouldn't want to rely on birdshot. It seems you can always find someone saying how pistols are used to fight your way to your rifle/shotgun and how pistols are poor stoppers compared to long guns. Yet when someone mentions using a AK or even a 44 magnum peoples pannies start to bunch and they claim that's it's too much. With the right load these guns are excellent choices. |
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Pass on the 125gr JHP load from CorBon. Its a bullet designed for .308Win velocities, stuffed into a 7.62x39 case. These types of loadings have never shown any sucess in labratory testing. So are you saying Mike at Corbon was lying to me when he told me that round penetrated 12" with heavy fragmentation when shot from a 16" AK? |
| Back on topic and I have answered this many times before. I am more than likely going to grab my 92FS with the 18 rounds of Ranger hollowpoints I keep in it next to my bed. I also keep my Yugo krink next to the bed in case it is not a burglar but a group of zombie bikers. |
| spanish destroyer carbine loaded with blazer gold dots, 9 largo. that's what stays in my closet. i have ars and aks, but i feel most comfortable with a very small bolt action. i think the ricochet and over penetration problem is really going to come into play when you fire about 60 rounds without seeing what you are shooting at. |
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You folks need to stop worrying about missing and start worrying about hitting. Put meat on the table! Get your asses out to the range and shoot. Shoot on the move, at a moving target, etc. Take a course. Good advice, but all the training in the world isn't going to prepare you for what happens when the target is live, hostile and capable of shooting back. Misses happen and what will happen when you miss must be taken into account.. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Using AK for Home Defense (Page 1 of 2)
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