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Posted: 7/18/2009 9:32:26 AM EDT
| Are all slant brakes crooked or is there a reason why mine is? The sight is not canted at all but the slant brake is |
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Yeah, It's crooked to counteract the tendency of a weapon to rise not only up, but to the right when fired from the right shoulder.
Plus the crookedness makes it look meaner. Being killed by a man with a well honed, balanced, clean and flawless weapon is one thing. Being killed by a man with a beat up, crooked, dirty and "inferior" weapon (that still works every time no less) is quite a bit more demeaning. 
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| and just to kill an internet myth (which I think is because the sompany that started it slanted their brakes to the left by mistake), it has nothing to do with Left or right handed shooters, the bolt rotates to the right giving the gun a tendency to climb to the right on full auto fire (not really an issue on semi). For the same reason the AK 74 brake has an asymetrical distribution of ports on the brake. Right or left handed is irrelevant. |
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and just to kill an internet myth (which I think is because the sompany that started it slanted their brakes to the left by mistake), it has nothing to do with Left or right handed shooters, the bolt rotates to the right giving the gun a tendency to climb to the right on full auto fire (not really an issue on semi). For the same reason the AK 74 brake has an asymetrical distribution of ports on the brake. Right or left handed is irrelevant. I figured it also had to do with the way a rifle balances and acts on the body, depending on a left or right handed shooter. Since the rifle butt isn't placed on your chest, your body and balance will react differently during recoil depending on your hand. |
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and just to kill an internet myth (which I think is because the sompany that started it slanted their brakes to the left by mistake), it has nothing to do with Left or right handed shooters, the bolt rotates to the right giving the gun a tendency to climb to the right on full auto fire (not really an issue on semi). For the same reason the AK 74 brake has an asymetrical distribution of ports on the brake. Right or left handed is irrelevant. Oh brother oh brother, the AK forum never disappointments. I'm sure some of the gofers here are going to drop in again and cry "he's a gunsmith! Who are you to question him??!" or "he's the expert on XXXX in the AK forums, shut up and listen Mateba!!" 
No offense to you Gunplumber, I like your posts but you are completely wrong here, and wrong in classical ARFCOM fashion. First, the bolt initially rotates to the "left" (CCW) as seen by the shooter.This applies an equal and opposite torque on the rest of the gun to twist CW. However, NONE of this matters because: 1) The rotation applies a TORQUE, that torque is about the bore axis so it only can twist the rifle, not push it to the right. In any case this effect is negligible because the rotational inertia of that bolt is minuscule and because..... 2) ...the moments (torques) that the bolt creates quickly cancel themselves out. When the bolt opens it applies a CW torque on the rifle. Almost immediately when the bolt is fully unlocked, the cam in the bolt carrier stops the bolt from rotating which applies a CCW torque on the rifle. The net effect is ZERO. Same thing when the bolt goes back into battery, at restitution the net effect is ZERO again. (conservation of angular momentum at play) Some people say it's to counteract the torque applied to the barrel from the rifling bullet. This too is bunk because: 1) There isn't much torque and the actual twisting is negligible. Otherwise all of our other guns without a slant brake, which is almost any other gun out there, would twist uncontrollably. Sometimes you will feel a slight twist if you don't hold the gun tight, but even here, the theory doesn't hold because: 2) The slant break design is incapable of imparting torque, it would need vanes or a similar design that twists the gases to do that. So there you have it. If you look at the slant brake, it is designed to do one thing. Use the gases to push down and to the left, and that's because it makes it easier for a right handed shooter to control and it blows less dust up from the ground. And BTW, the "slant brake" is not a brake at all, it is a comp. It doesn't do shit for braking since it does not have any surfaces (ie baffles, vanes, etc.. that little ridge does not count) to alter the forward momentum of the gases. That's the nature of brakes/comps/flash hiders though. Few people know how they actually work so the names get mixed up. Sometimes out of ignorance, sometimes for marketing, sometimes to skirt legal headaches (comp or brake = less trouble than flash hider). |
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All anyone needs to determine why the rifle moves to the left or right is one rifle without a muzzle device, two targets, and two shooters, one who shoots from the left shoulder and one who shoots from the right.
Have each shooter perform double taps (about five series should do it) each on a single target and then compare targets. Those who believe it has nothing to do with the force applied to the shoulder rotating the shooters body are in for a surprise. |
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sigh. . . better let Mr. Klishnikov know that he is wrong and the reasons he gave for the AKM upgrades, including the slant brake, which are taught in the Russian ordnance officer's manual (the hardback white book), are bunk. But you don't need the inventor to tell you if you have common sense . . . just rap downward on the right front of the trunion and watch what the sights do. Locking is an impact, unlocking is not - that's also why Kalishnikov shifted the bolt carrier stop to the left side.
And Poly, I' shoot left and right handed, on full auto. The gun climbs up and to the right regardless. Will do the same in a rest supporting only the buitstock. If you have other results, you have a poor shooting position. I can MAKE a rifle pull to the left be rolling my nonfiring hand duiring fiting, or to the right by doing the same with my firing hand, but it is poor technique, not a mechanical issue. |
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sigh. . . better let Mr. Klishnikov know that he is wrong and the reasons he gave for the AKM upgrades, including the slant brake, which are taught in the Russian ordnance officer's manual (the hardback white book), are bunk. Scan of the book? Citation? Who is "Mr. Klishnikov"??? Every time I get in a debate with a bubba, he cites some book and it turns out 1) he understood the book wrong or 2) he was lying or 3) the book was erroneous. Somewhere out there there is a book that says the M16 was designed to wound also. That doesn't make it fact. Shame people aren't taught critical thinking in school. Locking is an impact, unlocking is not - that's also why Kalishnikov shifted the bolt carrier stop to the left side.
Good God, it's clear you've never taken a science class in your life. "Impact" or "no impact" makes no difference, momentum is conserved, it's the laws of physics and there's no getting around them. Otherwise we could just put a larger version of your "impact/non impact" bolt in a car, not have to worry about a drive train, and just watch this engine push our car from the inside. 
And Poly, I' shoot left and right handed, on full auto. The gun climbs up and to the right regardless. Will do the same in a rest supporting only the buitstock. If you have other results, you have a poor shooting position. I can MAKE a rifle pull to the left be rolling my nonfiring hand duiring fiting, or to the right by doing the same with my firing hand, but it is poor technique, not a mechanical issue.
I've shot my AK bullpup unshouldered like a pistol (2 hands on the grip only) without the slant brake. Sorry, there is no lateral motion. If you are experiencing some, it's because you are inducing it somehow. |
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If the rifle moves to the right as a reaction to the bolt unlocking due to a turning movement, the rifle would move to the left as a reaction to the bolt turning in the opposite direction when it locked, thereby in effect "canceling" the initial movement and putting the rifle back in the same position as far as horizontal movement is concerned. Of course, that's not what happens, which is why the muzzle device is necessary.
It is of course possible that I don't know how to shoot. Uncle Sugar's instructors might not known what they were doing, but they taught me well enough to qualify back when rifles had significantly more recoil and muzzle climb than any AK or than the US issue rifle today (or for the last 49 years for that matter). Back then they called it the M 14. 
I simply invite everyone to perform the test I outlined and judge for themselves, rather than accept anyone's word on the matter(including mine). 
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| It's also not called a 'slant brake' because of the approx. 40 degree rotation - it's because of the slanted design of the body which allows the exhaust gas to be directed upward. There actually would be some 'braking' to it because the details of its design includes an open expansion chamber and what amounts to the lower third of a muzzle ring at the tip. These are the features that 'throw' the exhaust gas upward, and the 40 degree rotation helps counteract the tendency for muzzle rise up and right. Its really a very efficient device, being light and small, and it seems to work as-designed. |
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There actually would be some 'braking' to it because the details of its design includes an open expansion chamber and what amounts to the lower third of a muzzle ring at the tip. And the virtual gunshow continues.... Who's got any beef jerky? An expansion chamber without a baffle does not do any braking. In fact without the baffle, it increases recoil by directing the laterally expanding gases outward. That is how rocket nozzles work. Regardless, the slant brake does not qualify as having an expansion chamber and is too small to have any real effect on recoil in either direction. That's not what it's there for. |
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thank you, I didn't think pool Meteba couldn't handle my correcting all of his errors at once, so I was taking them one at a time. 
Yep, you certainly showed your knowledge on the matter. Thanks, will be sure not to buy anything from Arizona Response when they have "Master Gunsmiths" who haven't the slightest idea as to how guns operate. Since a muzzle unit can have a combined flash hiding, compensating and braking function, I figured it would make his head spin.
Of course they can, nobody argued different. Your reading comprehension is showing again. The only thing argued regarding this was that the slant brake does not fall in that category. |
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[The only thing argued regarding this was that the slant brake does not fall in that category.
Didn't you just get your panties in a bind insisting it wasn't a brake? And yes, it does have a baffle - not much of one, but its there - that little ridge in front of the expansion area that you don't want to count (because it contradicts your assertions?) |
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[The only thing argued regarding this was that the slant brake does not fall in that category.
Didn't you just get your panties in a bind insisting it wasn't a brake? And yes, it does have a baffle - not much of one, but its there - that little ridge in front of the expansion area that you don't want to count (because it contradicts your assertions?)
Here's what I said once again And BTW, the "slant brake" is not a brake at all, it is a comp. It doesn't do shit for braking since it does not have any surfaces (ie baffles, vanes, etc.. that little ridge does not count) to alter the forward momentum of the gases. That's the nature of brakes/comps/flash hiders though. Few people know how they actually work so the names get mixed up.
It doesn't count because the volume is not enclosed. I don't doubt that the significance of this is lost upon you. Really though, anybody at home can see you are talking out of your ass. Next time you are at the range, rest the AK (on a hard smooth surface that allows the handguard to slide back) and fire it without the slant brake by holding the grip only. Does it fly to the right? Nope, your bubba understanding of physics notwithstanding. Put the "brake" back on, does it reduce recoil? Nope. Sorry "Master Gunsmith", you are sounding like every other gunshow gunsmith. Please go back to school, take a physics class, and help save the gun world from more ignorant gun myths. |
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. . ..sigh .. . .
how do you think these units are manufactured? A cylinder is turned with an internal expansion chamber and front baffle, then cut off at an angle leaving the bottom part of the expansion chamber and bottom of baffle in-tact. Or do you think the specific geometry is for decoration? If your bizarre idea was true, why go through all the additional machining steps as a straight angle-cut cylinder would be the "same thing". And yes, I have tested the unit in different ways on the hundreds of AKs I've manufactured - as well as putting it on other guns just for kicks. And as I said before, it has little effect on semiauto. It has great effect on full auto. Same reason for the asymetrical porting on the '74, as I mentioned before. |
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. . ..sigh .. . . how do you think these units are manufactured? A cylinder is turned with an internal expansion chamber and front baffle, then cut off at an angle leaving the bottom part of the expansion chamber and bottom of baffle in-tact. Or do you think the specific geometry is for decoration? If your bizarre idea was true, why go through all the additional machining steps as a straight angle-cut cylinder would be the "same thing". And yes, I have tested the unit in different ways on the hundreds of AKs I've manufactured - as well as putting it on other guns just for kicks. And as I said before, it has little effect on semiauto. It has great effect on full auto. Same reason for the asymetrical porting on the '74, as I mentioned before. No it's not for decoration, I could go into a detailed description of what it's there for but I doubt you would understand that either. Basically what it boils down to is if you look at the dynamics of what happens, it helps maintain pressure on the lower lip in its role as a comp, especially since it's not an enclosed volume like most comps. If that tiny 1mm ridge had any real braking effect, then the many other muzzle brakes that have more surface area by several orders of magnitude would rip the rifle right from your hands which of course is not the case, nor physically possible. As already shown, your bubba notion that the rotating bolt causes the rifle to translate to the right is completely ludicrous. Let's try this one last time using a favorite tool of physicists: Gedanken (Thought) Experiments. If your understanding of impact and motion were correct, we could climb in a steel box floating in water or space, and propel ourselves from the inside using a mallet. All we would have to do is stand there, and bang on the wall, and we would move forward. However this is physically impossible since the momentum we transfer to the box when the mallet impacts can only cancel out by the momentum that was transferred from our feet when we swung the mallet. Impact or not, those 2 values are exactly equal (but opposite in direction) and cancel out. The net result of any internal motion will be 0 upon restitution. I'm sure you come back with more bubba logic and try to argue this also. Look, I spent 5 years working as an engineer at NASA. I might know a thing or 2 about Newtonian mechanics and how the expansion and redirection of gases relate to it. I don't know how much easier it can be explained for you to understand. Even by observation we can see your ideas are incorrect as there are countless other automatic rifles out there that use rotating bolts and none of them fly laterally either. Really, the fact that you still haven't understood this tells me you are either 1) incredibly dense or 2) incapable of admitting when you are wrong. In either case you are wasting my time, have fun plumbing. |
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. . ..sigh .. . . how do you think these units are manufactured? A cylinder is turned with an internal expansion chamber and front baffle, then cut off at an angle leaving the bottom part of the expansion chamber and bottom of baffle in-tact. Or do you think the specific geometry is for decoration? If your bizarre idea was true, why go through all the additional machining steps as a straight angle-cut cylinder would be the "same thing". And yes, I have tested the unit in different ways on the hundreds of AKs I've manufactured - as well as putting it on other guns just for kicks. And as I said before, it has little effect on semiauto. It has great effect on full auto. Same reason for the asymetrical porting on the '74, as I mentioned before. No it's not for decoration, I could go into a detailed description of what it's there for but I doubt you would understand that either. Basically what it boils down to is if you look at the dynamics of what happens, it helps maintain pressure on the lower lip in its role as a comp, especially since it's not an enclosed volume like most comps. If that tiny 1mm ridge had any real braking effect, then the many other muzzle brakes that have more surface area by several orders of magnitude would rip the rifle right from your hands which of course is not the case, nor physically possible. As already shown, your bubba notion that the rotating bolt causes the rifle to translate to the right is completely ludicrous. Let's try this one last time using a favorite tool of physicists: Gedanken (Thought) Experiments. If your understanding of impact and motion were correct, we could climb in a steel box floating in water or space, and propel ourselves from the inside using a mallet. All we would have to do is stand there, and bang on the wall, and we would move forward. However this is physically impossible since the momentum we transfer to the box when the mallet impacts can only cancel out by the momentum that was transferred from our feet when we swung the mallet. Impact or not, those 2 values are exactly equal (but opposite in direction) and cancel out. The net result of any internal motion will be 0 upon restitution. I'm sure you come back with more bubba logic and try to argue this also. Look, I spent 5 years working as an engineer at NASA. I might know a thing or 2 about Newtonian mechanics and how the expansion and redirection of gases relate to it. I don't know how much easier it can be explained for you to understand. Even by observation we can see your ideas are incorrect as there are countless other automatic rifles out there that use rotating bolts and none of them fly laterally either. Really, the fact that you still haven't understood this tells me you are either 1) incredibly dense or 2) incapable of admitting when you are wrong. In either case you are wasting my time, have fun plumbing. And with this, all of my ideas for a self-propelled space box are dashed! 
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. . ..sigh .. . . how do you think these units are manufactured? A cylinder is turned with an internal expansion chamber and front baffle, then cut off at an angle leaving the bottom part of the expansion chamber and bottom of baffle in-tact. Or do you think the specific geometry is for decoration? If your bizarre idea was true, why go through all the additional machining steps as a straight angle-cut cylinder would be the "same thing". And yes, I have tested the unit in different ways on the hundreds of AKs I've manufactured - as well as putting it on other guns just for kicks. And as I said before, it has little effect on semiauto. It has great effect on full auto. Same reason for the asymetrical porting on the '74, as I mentioned before. No it's not for decoration, I could go into a detailed description of what it's there for but I doubt you would understand that either. Basically what it boils down to is if you look at the dynamics of what happens, it helps maintain pressure on the lower lip in its role as a comp, especially since it's not an enclosed volume like most comps. If that tiny 1mm ridge had any real braking effect, then the many other muzzle brakes that have more surface area by several orders of magnitude would rip the rifle right from your hands which of course is not the case, nor physically possible. As already shown, your bubba notion that the rotating bolt causes the rifle to translate to the right is completely ludicrous. Let's try this one last time using a favorite tool of physicists: Gedanken (Thought) Experiments. If your understanding of impact and motion were correct, we could climb in a steel box floating in water or space, and propel ourselves from the inside using a mallet. All we would have to do is stand there, and bang on the wall, and we would move forward. However this is physically impossible since the momentum we transfer to the box when the mallet impacts can only cancel out by the momentum that was transferred from our feet when we swung the mallet. Impact or not, those 2 values are exactly equal (but opposite in direction) and cancel out. The net result of any internal motion will be 0 upon restitution. I'm sure you come back with more bubba logic and try to argue this also. Look, I spent 5 years working as an engineer at NASA. I might know a thing or 2 about Newtonian mechanics and how the expansion and redirection of gases relate to it. I don't know how much easier it can be explained for you to understand. Even by observation we can see your ideas are incorrect as there are countless other automatic rifles out there that use rotating bolts and none of them fly laterally either. Really, the fact that you still haven't understood this tells me you are either 1) incredibly dense or 2) incapable of admitting when you are wrong. In either case you are wasting my time, have fun plumbing. And with this, all of my ideas for a self-propelled space box are dashed! As are my dreams of saving gas money. I tried kicking the dashboard on my car, but it moved neither forward nor to the right  Newton, he messed up everything.
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Wonder if it has anything to do with ergonomics ?? In that the way the hand grabs the the lower handguard, it would seem that the comp/brake would push the rifle down into the palm of the supporting hand to direct the force into the palm and along the stiffest point of support, in this case the forearm....
Not a rocket scientist here just thinking out loud that when holding the rifle a right handed shooter's left forearm will be at a roughly 40-45 degree angle, about the same angle as the offset of the brake... Coincidence ?? |
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"space box?"
Alll........lrighty then. You go play in your space box, and I'll go back to manufacturing AKs. And I'll keep my slant brakes turned to the right to counteract bolt rotation, just like that stupid guy who didn't have an engineering or physics degree designed it. And I will continue to do my gauging and manufacture using the factory gauges and Mr. Kalishnikov's original specs, until such time as he demonstrates himself an idiot who doesn't know squat about gun design. At that point, I may seek the advise of Isaac Newton's love child, or maybe Rosita down at the Taco Shack - she strikes me as a wise Latina. |
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"space box?" Alll........lrighty then. You go play in your space box, and I'll go back to manufacturing AKs. And I'll keep my slant brakes turned to the right to counteract bolt rotation, just like that stupid guy who didn't have an engineering or physics degree designed it. And I will continue to do my gauging and manufacture using the factory gauges and Mr. Kalishnikov's Kalashnikov's original specs, until such time as he demonstrates himself an idiot who doesn't know squat about gun design. At that point, I may seek the advise of Isaac Newton's love child, or maybe Rosita down at the Taco Shack - she strikes me as a wise Latina. Fixed it for ya!
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oh no - the spelling police! I thought I'd escaped you by faking my own death!
I typically use ISO 9:1995, but how many (n y and or an "i "?) i should I put in sovremenny? Or how many a's in chechnya? Is KOACHbIN PACCBeT ok? Howabout my semetic pronunciations - there is that annoying Q, C, Kh . . .. |
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oh no - the spelling police! I thought I'd escaped you by faking my own death! I typically use ISO 9:1995, but how many (n y and or an "i "?) i should I put in sovremenny? Or how many a's in chechnya? Is KOACHbIN PACCBeT ok? Howabout my semetic pronunciations - there is that annoying Q, C, Kh . . .. Sorry, I wasn't trying to be a jerk, just trying to help. I speak, read and write Russian (tested and certified), and it's one of those things. The A in the Russian language never gets transliterated into an, I, however you obviously know the issues with the y's and i's that do exist. You've had your balls busted enough here, so I won't go on any more. No harm, no foul, etc, etc.
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(I thought the faking my own death line indicated I was in good humor - yes, I know I spelled it wrong, I flogged myself in penance)
Good to know you're fluent in Russian - how are you with technical Russian? I understand its a lot different than conversational. My computer guru is a native speaker but he has trouble with technical stuff. I can get by (with help from John Baum) on translating my DDR manuals, but I can type the german - haven't found a way to type russian characters that web boards will reproduce. I've had some really funny results German - like "war thorn vagina" = bayonet scabbard. Anyway, I have stacks of Russian technical data and sometimes the literal translation just doesn't make sense. |
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(I thought the faking my own death line indicated I was in good humor - yes, I know I spelled it wrong, I flogged myself in penance) Good to know you're fluent in Russian - how are you with technical Russian? I understand its a lot different than conversational. My computer guru is a native speaker but he has trouble with technical stuff. I can get by (with help from John Baum) on translating my DDR manuals, but I can type the german - haven't found a way to type russian characters that web boards will reproduce. I've had some really funny results German - like "war thorn vagina" = bayonet scabbard. Anyway, I have stacks of Russian technical data and sometimes the literal translation just doesn't make sense. For typing on web boards - Этот сайт тебе поможет - http://winrus.com/screen_e.htm You are right, it is way different than conversational. It might have the same grammar, but technical Russian is difficult for me. As far as manuals and things like that go, I can usually make things out, but getting a technical translation would be long and arduous. It is a seriously complex language. I can talk with natives about weapons, cars, the weather, and stuff like that, but if you want me to talk physics, or science, I start having a hard time. Engineer speak in English can lose me if it gets deep enough, so in another language I won't be that great. |
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Wonder if it has anything to do with ergonomics ?? In that the way the hand grabs the the lower handguard, it would seem that the comp/brake would push the rifle down into the palm of the supporting hand to direct the force into the palm and along the stiffest point of support, in this case the forearm.... Not a rocket scientist here just thinking out loud that when holding the rifle a right handed shooter's left forearm will be at a roughly 40-45 degree angle, about the same angle as the offset of the brake... Coincidence ?? You tryin to steal my name????
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Wonder if it has anything to do with ergonomics ?? In that the way the hand grabs the the lower handguard, it would seem that the comp/brake would push the rifle down into the palm of the supporting hand to direct the force into the palm and along the stiffest point of support, in this case the forearm.... Not a rocket scientist here just thinking out loud that when holding the rifle a right handed shooter's left forearm will be at a roughly 40-45 degree angle, about the same angle as the offset of the brake... Coincidence ?? You tryin to steal my name???? Nope.... just got mine off the side of the rifle.
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With all do respect.
The garand, M14, Sig series, FNC, AR-180 the AR15 all have rotating bolts. However they do not climb to the right. I have shot the latter three on full auto and they climb directly up. The garand and M14 bolt setup is near identical to the AK. |
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