AK Sponsor
Posted: 5/2/2009 8:20:30 PM EDT
| Why don't most Saiga's have dimples if they're so important? I would have thought the people at Izzy knew this...? |
|
OK, here is my understanding of it. I always seem to be the minority with this idea but since NONE of my AK magazines ever touch the dimples in ANY of my AK's then this is what I think they're there for (taken from a post that I made earlier):
A lot of people think that the dimples are for stabilizing the mag simply because that seems the most logical by sight, i.e. the dimples are next to the magwell so that's what it must be for. However, as we have discussed on this board and over on the AK Files, the dimples are referred to as "coining", which is a typical procedure for strengthening sheet metal. This is also why the top cover to an AK is dimpled along the top and sides, and the same for the ribs on the magazine. Here is the definition from my machinist workbook that I got from the metal working class at the community college:
"Coining is a metalworking operation used to create raised surfaces and imprints in metal. Coining is a relatively severe operation that creates variations in metal thickness to aid in the strengthening or weakening of the metal according to the machinist's needs." So again, opinions vary. This just makes the most logical sense to me. |
|
Quoted:
Albanian AKs do not have dimples either. I don't know how their quality stacks up against other countries AK though. http://i44.tinypic.com/2vbsc54.jpg http://i43.tinypic.com/29pueja.jpg Wouldn't the spike bayos, hooded front sights, and smooth dust covers make those chicoms? |
|
Quoted:
Albanian AKs do not have dimples either. I don't know how their quality stacks up against other countries AK though. Quoted:
Wouldn't the spike bayos, hooded front sights, and smooth dust covers make those chicoms? I believe that Albania was based on the Maoist communist model and most of their aid came from China, not the Soviet Union. If so, most of their factories would have been set up with Chinese help and supplies so that may be the result. ALBANIA AND MAOIST DOCTRINE
Albania was very important, not just as a socialist ally to China, but because it seemed to confirm and validate the Maoist doctrine as a world ideology. None of the other socialist countries, not Vietnam, nor Laos or Korea, embraced the Cultural Revolution, promoted it, or in any way regarded it as more than a national phenomenon confined to China. None of the other socialist countries embraced the false super-power theory and the doctrine of "social-imperialism." Albania alone seemed to be the only follower of Mao among all the socialist countries. For that alone it was frequently and effusively praised. |
|
Quoted: That is what I thought originally too, but as someone pointed it above me they had help from China in setting up their AK factory. I am guessing this is why they look a lot like the Chinese rifles kinda like how the Iraqi Tabuk looks a lot like the Yugo AKs.Quoted: Albanian AKs do not have dimples either. I don't know how their quality stacks up against other countries AK though. http://i44.tinypic.com/2vbsc54.jpg http://i43.tinypic.com/29pueja.jpg Wouldn't the spike bayos, hooded front sights, and smooth dust covers make those chicoms? |
| The AK receiver, at least the stamped one, has magazine guide/support rails under the bolt carrier guide rails. Depending on how these have been filed down during fitting determines whether the magazine fits tight or loose. As already stated, the magazine doesn't contact the 'dimples'. Plus, magazines are all different, so sometimes it's good to find the type that fits your gun the best and stick with those. |
|
The pimary function is to strengthen the receiver, It's no accident that the dimples are located where the bottom has a large hole in it that's called the magazine well. A secondary reason may to be to serve as a guide to stop someone from inserting the magazine in the well at such an angle that it won't insert properly. (I've tried to do this without sucess, but I wasn't under fire at the time.)
As to why the dimples were omitted, here's my SWAG: Russia is a signatory to the Wasenaar Arrangement, (Wasenaar Arrangement Semiautomatic Rifle [WASR]sound familiar? Romania is a signatory too.) which is a treaty which restricts the exportation of (among other things) military rifles. Perhaps the receiver was "redesigned" so it qualified as a non military rifle. During the "redesign" the "dimples" were omitted. |
|
I have learned three things from this thread, none of which have to do with dimpled receivers:
––The Wassenaar Arrangement (It's a pretty big deal –– they have their own website: wassenaar.org). ––Now I know what "WASR" means. ––POLYTHENEPAM's moniker is from a Beatles song, which I was only able to figure out after he was referred to as "Pam." Carry on. |
|
Quoted:
The pimary function is to strengthen the receiver, It's no accident that the dimples are located where the bottom has a large hole in it that's called the magazine well. A secondary reason may to be to serve as a guide to stop someone from inserting the magazine in the well at such an angle that it won't insert properly. (I've tried to do this without sucess, but I wasn't under fire at the time.) As to why the dimples were omitted, here's my SWAG: Russia is a signatory to the Wasenaar Arrangement, (Wasenaar Arrangement Semiautomatic Rifle [WASR]sound familiar? Romania is a signatory too.) which is a treaty which restricts the exportation of (among other things) military rifles. Perhaps the receiver was "redesigned" so it qualified as a non military rifle. During the "redesign" the "dimples" were omitted. I would disagree with its primary function to strengthen the receiver. In his book, Mikhail Kalashnikov, The Arms and the Man, Edward Ezell clearly states the intent of the dimples was to, "...serve as guides for the magazine when it is inserted into the weapon." This is the the chapter on the Evolution of the Kalashnikov Avtomat, 1947-1959, page 93, Describing the AKM. |
|
I think they're there to make magazine insertion smoother/reduce hangups. Don't the WASRs and Saigas have chunks of steel spot welded into their receivers for this purpose in place of the dimples? They may not "cradle" the magazine in the receiver, they may just be there to make sure the magazine cannot be inserted at an angle, guiding them to the mag support rails.
Also, the dimples are not "coined". Coining is used on solid pieces of metal - like coins, hence the name - to give surface relief (vary the thickness). The dimples in your rifle's receiver are not thicker than the rest of the receiver - if anything they're thinner, though formed ridges can still enhance rigidity in a stamped component, coining it is not. If these dimples were for rigidity, why are they where they are? It wouldn't make any sense. Why not continue them all the way up to the trunnion? Why not continue them rearward? Why so deep? If these dimples were for rigidity, the design makes little sense. |
|
I disagree. Coining is not just to make coins, it's a process used in stamping sheet metal where a male form is pressed over a female form. Making coins is one use.
http://www.efunda.com/processes/metal_processing/bending.cfm http://www.mfg.com/en/categories/process-metal-stamping.jsp http://www.answers.com/topic/sheet-metal-forming http://www.gageverticalsurfacing.com/gmsite/relieves.htm http://www.tridentresources.com/metalprocessing/metal-stamping.html |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
The pimary function is to strengthen the receiver, It's no accident that the dimples are located where the bottom has a large hole in it that's called the magazine well. A secondary reason may to be to serve as a guide to stop someone from inserting the magazine in the well at such an angle that it won't insert properly. (I've tried to do this without sucess, but I wasn't under fire at the time.) As to why the dimples were omitted, here's my SWAG: Russia is a signatory to the Wasenaar Arrangement, (Wasenaar Arrangement Semiautomatic Rifle [WASR]sound familiar? Romania is a signatory too.) which is a treaty which restricts the exportation of (among other things) military rifles. Perhaps the receiver was "redesigned" so it qualified as a non military rifle. During the "redesign" the "dimples" were omitted. I would disagree with its primary function to strengthen the receiver. In his book, Mikhail Kalashnikov, The Arms and the Man, Edward Ezell clearly states the intent of the dimples was to, "...serve as guides for the magazine when it is inserted into the weapon." This is the the chapter on the Evolution of the Kalashnikov Avtomat, 1947-1959, page 93, Describing the AKM. I'm afraid that Mr. Ezell is simply following what he found in Small Arms of the World when he took it over. Unfortunately there are errors in every edition of the book. Calling the "dimples" a magazine guide MAY be one of them. I can tell everyone this: The reason that automakers put creases in sheet metal (think of the "peak" in the middle of the hood)is not solely for looks. Those have the effect of reducing the amount the body part will flex. I suggest we all try to insert a magazines at a sufficient angle so that it will come in contact with the inside of the dimples. If someone succeeds, we'll know it serves that purpose. Whether that is the primary purpose or not is not susceptible to being settled definitively. |
|
Quoted:
I disagree. Coining is not just to make coins, it's a process used in stamping sheet metal where a male form is pressed over a female form. Making coins is one use. http://www.efunda.com/processes/metal_processing/bending.cfm http://www.mfg.com/en/categories/process-metal-stamping.jsp http://www.answers.com/topic/sheet-metal-forming http://www.gageverticalsurfacing.com/gmsite/relieves.htm http://www.tridentresources.com/metalprocessing/metal-stamping.html You're right. But the dimples of an AK are not coined, they're drawn. |
|
Quoted:
I think they're there to make magazine insertion smoother/reduce hangups. Don't the WASRs and Saigas have chunks of steel spot welded into their receivers for this purpose in place of the dimples? They may not "cradle" the magazine in the receiver, they may just be there to make sure the magazine cannot be inserted at an angle, guiding them to the mag support rails. Also, the dimples are not "coined". Coining is used on solid pieces of metal - like coins, hence the name - to give surface relief (vary the thickness). The dimples in your rifle's receiver are not thicker than the rest of the receiver - if anything they're thinner, though formed ridges can still enhance rigidity in a stamped component, coining it is not. If these dimples were for rigidity, why are they where they are? It wouldn't make any sense. Why not continue them all the way up to the trunnion? Why not continue them rearward? Why so deep? If these dimples were for rigidity, the design makes little sense. First, welding a second piece of metal to the side of the receiver strengthens it doesn't it? Second, measure the length of the magazine well, then divide the figure by half. Now measure the distance from the front (or rear) of the magazine well to the center of the "dimple". I think you'll find that the center of the "dimple" is also the center of the magazine well. The center of the magazine well is the weakest point of the receiver, because there's no metal in the bottom of the receiver. It could be a coincidence that the "dimple" is located exactly at (and strengthens) the weakest point, but I don't think so. |
|
Quoted:
Ok, so if the dimples are there to strengthen the receiver, and guide the magazine, explain this: http://ultimak.com/AKReceivers/MilSide.jpg Milled receivers have dimples. The do not "guide" the magazine because they are external. They do not strengthen the receiver either. On milled receivers they're called lightening cuts, not dimples, and their purpose is self-explanatory. Milled receivers are from a solid piece of steel and don't require any additional strengthening. Most stamped receivers are only 1mm, a few are around 1.5 to 1.6mm. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Ok, so if the dimples are there to strengthen the receiver, and guide the magazine, explain this: http://ultimak.com/AKReceivers/MilSide.jpg Milled receivers have dimples. The do not "guide" the magazine because they are external. They do not strengthen the receiver either. On milled receivers they're called lightening cuts, not dimples, and their purpose is self-explanatory. Milled receivers are from a solid piece of steel and don't require any additional strengthening. Most stamped receivers are only 1mm, a few are around 1.5 to 1.6mm. I know I just think its funny |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I think they're there to make magazine insertion smoother/reduce hangups. Don't the WASRs and Saigas have chunks of steel spot welded into their receivers for this purpose in place of the dimples? They may not "cradle" the magazine in the receiver, they may just be there to make sure the magazine cannot be inserted at an angle, guiding them to the mag support rails. Also, the dimples are not "coined". Coining is used on solid pieces of metal - like coins, hence the name - to give surface relief (vary the thickness). The dimples in your rifle's receiver are not thicker than the rest of the receiver - if anything they're thinner, though formed ridges can still enhance rigidity in a stamped component, coining it is not. If these dimples were for rigidity, why are they where they are? It wouldn't make any sense. Why not continue them all the way up to the trunnion? Why not continue them rearward? Why so deep? If these dimples were for rigidity, the design makes little sense. First, welding a second piece of metal to the side of the receiver strengthens it doesn't it? Depends on how it's done. I beleive they're spot welded near the center, this would not add much if any strength. Second, measure the length of the magazine well, then divide the figure by half. Now measure the distance from the front (or rear) of the magazine well to the center of the "dimple". I think you'll find that the center of the "dimple" is also the center of the magazine well. The center of the magazine well is the weakest point of the receiver, because there's no metal in the bottom of the receiver. It could be a coincidence that the "dimple" is located exactly at (and strengthens) the weakest point, but I don't think so. I don't know. I concede that it's possible, but I just think it's unlikely that they're for stiffening the receiver. |
|
Quoted:
I think they're there to make magazine insertion smoother/reduce hangups. Don't the WASRs and Saigas have chunks of steel spot welded into their receivers for this purpose in place of the dimples? IDK about Saigas, but I pulled out the WASR and looked at it. The "upside down 'L' brackets" cannot serve to guide the magazine or keep it from being inserted at an improper angle. This is so because the short "leg" is positioned immediately under the locator tab on the rail, at least on mine. |
|
Quoted:
First, welding a second piece of metal to the side of the receiver strengthens it doesn't it? Depends on how it's done. I beleive they're spot welded near the center, this would not add much if any strength. I can't determine the number or the location of the welds which attach the "L" brackets" to the receiver on mine, and I've never examined another one with that in mind. |
|
Quoted:
I have learned three things from this thread, none of which have to do with dimpled receivers: ––The Wassenaar Arrangement (It's a pretty big deal –– they have their own website: wassenaar.org). ––Now I know what "WASR" means. ––POLYTHENEPAM's moniker is from a Beatles song, which I was only able to figure out after he was referred to as "Pam." Carry on. I spent about an hour reading that site and couldnt find it what does WASR mean |
|
Sooooo....what DOES cause a tight, rattle free fit in an AK, If it's not the dimples?
I actually think it's the fit of the sides of the front of the mag to the trunion....if you look at the wear marks on a mag, the less wobble free ones seem to have more wear there....as if sides of the front of the mag are being cammed into place as it's rocked back. AoD |
|
Quoted:
Sooooo....what DOES cause a tight, rattle free fit in an AK, If it's not the dimples? I actually think it's the fit of the sides of the front of the mag to the trunion....if you look at the wear marks on a mag, the less wobble free ones seem to have more wear there....as if sides of the front of the mag are being cammed into place as it's rocked back. AoD Its the size of the magwell and the lower rails. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Sooooo....what DOES cause a tight, rattle free fit in an AK, If it's not the dimples? I actually think it's the fit of the sides of the front of the mag to the trunion....if you look at the wear marks on a mag, the less wobble free ones seem to have more wear there....as if sides of the front of the mag are being cammed into place as it's rocked back. AoD Its the size of the magwell and the lower rails. thats exactly right, plus the added measure of making sure the mag catch is set right. thats one thing nice about building your own receivers, you can trim the lower rails so you dont have slop 
|
|
Quoted:
thats one thing nice about building your own receivers, you can trim the lower rails so you dont have slop I built one like that once. I found that when you remove all lateral play, it's difficult to put the magazines in the rifle. Since I felt foolish filing the locator tabs and magazine well AFTER the rifle had been assembled, I'll never do that again. The rifle was designed to work with some lateral play. |
|
ok, I have yet to comment on any of these dimple threads except maybe to say my rifle does and does not have. I have 2 Arsenals here right now (dimpled), and my Saiga is at the smith getting the folder, so I can't use that. Now, I don't stand on either side of the debate, just showing pics of what my rifles look like. My krink w/ about 1k rounds through it.  next is my 107CR which I have not shot at all, just mag changes, may hit the range today though.   now it seems to me, by the pictures, that both sides are correct. Of course, it could be the way I hold the rifle, or insert the mag, tongue declination etc.... Lets have a group hug and say we're all right!  |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
thats one thing nice about building your own receivers, you can trim the lower rails so you dont have slop I built one like that once. I found that when you remove all lateral play, it's difficult to put the magazines in the rifle. Since I felt foolish filing the locator tabs and magazine well AFTER the rifle had been assembled, I'll never do that again. The rifle was designed to work with some lateral play. I have no problem putting my mags in them and they dont have a bunch of wobble, now granted over time they obviously will wear from use and probably will start to get a little slop. I cant stand a bunch of slop in the mag, now granted the ak works fine even with rattling mags, but when building from flats,as you well know, you are going to have to adjust/file the rail to make the mags fit anyhow, so why not make them fit nice? if you have a die grinder and the right carbide bits,l one can go in and trim them after the rifle has been built. which Ironically I did the same thing you did once.......... made it too tight, only took a little grinding then it was fine. was no big deal |
AK Sponsor