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Posted: 4/13/2008 5:09:40 PM EDT
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www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=96810291 Jeeezzzzzuuuusssss |
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You obviously have zero idea what you are even looking at. It has all original factory proof markings using original factory stamping equipment, three proof clusters on the trunnion, original Tula star embossed prior to the serial number, countersunk recessed Russian factory rivets. The furniture alone is well over $600. It's for an advanced collector, KCA member. Also that is built by a master AK smith who knows how to build AK's unlike so many hacks out there. Very nice true Russian Krink and probably the last one of it's kind. You would have to import one direct from Russia to come closer- which isn't going to happen. RR |
NDS are about as close as you can get to the original ones. Ted refuses to build on all other US recievers since none would pass his basic mil spec quality standards. Basically if it's not mil-spec he won't touch it. RR |
I really think you should hold back on talking down to people. I've read some of your posts... The ad says "Barrel trunnion has a three-proof cluster like the original." It doesn't say they are the original factory proof markings using original factory stamping equipment. |
YEP ... just another, of 65 million, sheet metal gun .... AK. |
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Naturally, that's a lot of money to most of us for a rifle. But on the flip side of that, for those advanced collectors and builders that know what it involved to create it, the rifle may or may not be worth it to them. There's a lot of Kalashnikov collectors with deep pockets out there so it may appeal to those guys. If you know what you're looking at, you can see there's certainly a lot of time, money, and effort put into that build. It's not exact but it's really close and done by an almost exlusive Kalashnikov rifle builder. I have two Ted Marshall builds that I bought second-hand from someone that commissioned him to build the rifles. When you look at the rifles, you notice there's quite a lot of attention to detail put into each one and there's probably a handful of Kalashnikov builders out there that get that time-consumed and detailed. And, of course, it costs some money to have that much detail done - that's why there's quite a waiting list for his builds. I'm not trying to put a plug in for the buildier and am just as humble of a member as anyone else but I do know he's gone regularly to Russia, has met Mikhail Kalashnikov himself a few times, and visits the factories for information on his builds. |
So is this your rifle? |
Nope, not my rifle though wish it were. However I own others that Ted has built. If you knew Ted's work and are a true collector of AK's- you'd understand. This isn't some parts that are merely put together, each piece is either original for that year or hand made to exacting copy for that year. As far as parts that are Bulgarian, those are turned down to Russian specs, sanitized, then re-marked to exact original spec- that I guarantee. Ted even has gone so far as to import stamp die bits to re-produce original factory proof cluster markings from every major AK manufacturer across the former com block world. He travels every few months to Europe to meet to visit with head engineers, colleagues, and old friends. He is even invited to the state run birthday of Kalashnikov himself where only those whom are within those circles are invited. I just know how much effort goes into one of these builds and I know these parts are extraordinarily hard to come by- so as such, the price commands the effort. Most of us who deal with Mr. Marshall are willing to wait years to have an exact repro produced and have spent thousands to craft something never before available in the US. That is what others won't understand, they think that these other builders are quality builds just because they can somehow stain a stock with some rit dye or rivet together some kit onto a bare receiver yet have zero idea how properly press a rivet to begin with. Some of these outfits are even dangerous because they use soft non-factory hardened rivets that were neither countersunk or pressed properly before final assembly. Using air hammers and bucking bars is not up to spec yet half the outfits on these boards do so at the potential liability of safety that wouldn't meet even the lowest of Romanian export spec. When you spend years collecting parts through various channels you don't send them to these cheap little back ally hacks. You get onto a build list and then wait even longer just to send your items in to a master AK smith. Only one man can even come close to original spec and that man is Ted Marshall. Hence one of the only US builders recognized by the KCA and it's members. RR |
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RetroRevolver77, Thanks for the explanation. It make sense now. I saw that you had made some comments about soft non-recessed rivets on aftermarket receivers in another post. ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=4&f=64&t=106233 Maybe you can address some of the questions that were left unanswered? |
I did. Hell saw a picture of a guy showing off his new build from a vendor here. There are creases on the rivets, clear indication of improper air hammer and bucking bar usage. You won't see that kind of corner cutting with a Marshall Arms build- course you will pay three times more for it also. I guess it all depends on what is important to you. I have friend who collects classic muscle cars, I collect AK's, others might collect old lever actions- it depends on what's your area of interest I guess. To put this in simple perspective; is a Model 1 Sales M4gery build the same as a Colt? Fuck no and thus the Colt, which is built properly and to spec, commands a higher price tag. RR |
There's a certain irony in lavishing a lot of time money and effort to clone a military rifle that was mass produced. No one lavished time money or effort on the original. Remember, it's not an AK unless it was assembled by a peasant with vodka on his breath. |
True but it doesn't make it any less of a value to the right collector. I don't want just a Shelby Cobra replica kit car- I want as close to the actual thing as I can get. A rich bastard doesn't care what the price tag is for an original item. RR |
LOL It's NOT the original item. It's a clone. Worse, it's a clone with a sign on it that says "I'm a clone." |
| Get on Tantals website ,and have them send you a master price list. It blew my mind to see what actual Russian parts go for.hock.gif |
great explanation with even greater ethos. for those of us unable to gather the time and resources for commissioning a master AK smith which builder(s) would you recommend? or what should we look for as far as a quality build? its not so much authenticity for me but rather quality and reliability. i'm political with my money, i want to know i'm giving it to the right person for the right job, not some "knowledgable" hack. |
I'm still waiting for some knowledgeable answers to those questions also. RetroRevolver77, Are you a member of the KCA? |
He Who Shall Not Be Named would be my choice for an AZ builder. Had very nice work from him. |
I know him  Surly individual, used to work for AZ DOC.
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Skirting the bleeding edge there MAK! Surly is right; ever notice he's quite funny when he's trying his hardest not to be surly.  Somehow I think I'll pay for that. |
Dont waste your time. Guys like this run and cry when you call them out in public. |
I've been asked to be, I know several of their members, basically one of my builds done by Ted was picked up by Arsenal and gave way to the 106 series which led into the 107 series. This is what at least Ted claims would be my reason. I'm just hardcore enough to look at rivet work but just not that much into it to collect period correct items or bayonets and stuff. You see a lot of their stuff on Tantal's website and honestly this stuff is so accurate, it's difficult to distinguish from the originals. I got a guy buying one my rifles who spent close to $2700 just on a Type III Russian kit- to me that's pretty hardcore. RR |
Mind giving an appology now? Read the thread now. Prior to my ass the closest you might come to a 100 series was if you spent years collecting parts and praying to find someone to build it properly. Even now all people do is complain, the sights are crooked, the finish isn't right. What you think Arsenal is going to dump tons of effort into a project that costs them tons of money on US polymer parts production to meet our codes and sells on a limited basis? Just be happy to have a complete weapon and at least something that only needs minor tweaking to get it right. RR |
Honestly for all we know, the com block countries never ventured to try the non mil spec method. However the reason why the press is used is primarily to countersink the reciever shell itself into the recesses of the trunnion- so you'd have to use a press anyway, even if just to perform that aspect. Basically if using an air hammer, you can't possibly countersink the reciever shell into those recesss so all the action is set upon the rivet bodies themselves and not the shell as Kalashnikov intended. RR |
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Stepping in late here. $3K sounds like a lot, and it is, but I have at least that much in my Marshall Arms krink thanks to my attempts to cut corners to begin with. I started with a virgin kit sent to Don's Gun Shop in Fort Meyers FL, and after the paperwork, transfer, taxes, and I can't remember how many hundreds of dollars for the initial build on top of the high K-Var kit price, I got a totally unusable piece of crap with unsafe headspace and a dented and bent receiver. The kit was then sent to Solstace Arms (AKA Gary Gucciano) in Kansas and most of ya'll who've been in this game awhile know how that eventually turned out. After receiving most of my parts back eventually, I went with Ted. I waited in line and what I got back was nothing short of perfection. All of these guns tend to appreciate in value, but not all are what I would consider "investment grade". My Ted Marshall gun is investment grade, though I can't say that I bought in at the right price due to the path I had to take to get there. Saleen |
Ted explained to me his reason for the price on this one is the extra effort on correct parts and stampings. He had two nearly complete Russian krink kits from his private collection. He built one and this is the last of it's kind. It also has original Russian rivets which is unique by itself. Overall he's selling it for what it would cost someone else to send him a kit of this quality and have it built to this level. He actually sold one not even a few weeks earlier that went for about $500 less just because it had more Bulgarian parts than this one. Maybe I should let Ted know that the "experts" at Arfcom feel they can build a replica to this exacting detail level for cheaper. Course there isn't anyone in the states outside of Ted who could actually do that so he would probably be amused by this. Again, you get what you pay for in life, and that Krink is built correctly to original spec for that year. RR |
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I think the thread has kind of got off-track somewhat. The fact is, someone is selling a build that they tried to accurately make a representation of Tula AKS-74U. The seller is one of the premier Kalashnikov builders and so it will be priced at quite a premium. For those that understand the details of the build, it's understandable why it's priced as it is. For those that don't, quite a bit of information has been provided about why it's priced that high. Will it go up in value as an investment? Perhaps. Maybe not like a similarly priced Luger or C96 pistol. But it does have it's niche for collectors and there will most certainly be a day when Mr. Marshall just stops doing such builds due to parts shortages or time. If someone thinks it's too high, that's cool. It's probably a bit high for most of us anyway. It's certainly nice eye candy but it is an auction and the seller can try to get as much as he wants to try to get out of it. An advanced collector with a lot of bones will undoubtedly buy it sooner or later. And when you think about it, there's not really that many AKS-74U builds out there or being built with that much detail put into it. |
Yes, I am sorry that you think anyone would believe your delusions. You should thank me for your ability to post. I brought the world the internet. |
jesus fucking christ, let it go. This thread is about a Ted Williams build, period... holy fuck
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