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Posted: 7/22/2009 8:03:06 AM EDT
| Hi all Ive been running nothing but wolf steel case ammo in my polly tech.Id like to no if thats ok and if any damage will occur.Thanks |
| The AK was made for Wolf and like type ammo (ie. Brown/Silver Bear, etc). That it what it wants. Would I run Wolf in my Kahr or Glock, nah. But the AK is made for it. I will be getting some Wolf for my Bulgarian Makarov, though. Again, Russian (type) gun, Russian (type) ammo. Plus Wolf is not corrosive like a lot of military surplus ammo, so it is actually some of the best you can run as far as quality/affordability/availability. The reason folks do not use Wolf, Brown , etc. in ARs is that with the AR's tight tolerances, the "dirty" ammo is just too dirty (lots of powder residue). I believe there may be an issue of ARs not correctly extracting the steel cased ammo, though I am not positive on that, maybe someone else is. |
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The AK was made for Wolf and like type ammo (ie. Brown/Silver Bear, etc). That it what it wants. Would I run Wolf in my Kahr or Glock, nah. But the AK is made for it. I will be getting some Wolf for my Bulgarian Makarov, though. Again, Russian (type) gun, Russian (type) ammo. Plus Wolf is not corrosive like a lot of military surplus ammo, so it is actually some of the best you can run as far as quality/affordability/availability. The reason folks do not use Wolf, Brown , etc. in ARs is that with the AR's tight tolerances, the "dirty" ammo is just too dirty (lots of powder residue). I believe there may be an issue of ARs not correctly extracting the steel cased ammo, though I am not positive on that, maybe someone else is. +1 |
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Kind of off-topic, but what makes you guys claim that AKs were designed for crappy ammo, and that ARs are designed for good ammo? Personally I don't think wolf is crappy ammo, its not the best but it goes bang every time hits the target and if shoot something with it it will more than likely die. I don't get why people think its so terrible. I've had a few problems with it in one of my AR's but for the most part its fine, its cheaper, and I don't have to run around looking for the case to reload it. Sometimes its just fun to blast and not have to worry about it. Not to thread hijack the OP but get over it people Wolf is a fine ammo. |
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Kind of off-topic, but what makes you guys claim that AKs were designed for crappy ammo, and that ARs are designed for good ammo? i would say that in russia the majority of ammo used is steal cased so they design guns that work with well with that. I.E. dirtier ammo, harder on the extractor and in the US we design guns to mostly shoot brass. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Kind of off-topic, but what makes you guys claim that AKs were designed for crappy ammo, and that ARs are designed for good ammo? i would say that in russia the majority of ammo used is steal cased so they design guns that work with well with that. I.E. dirtier ammo, harder on the extractor and in the US we design guns to mostly shoot brass. Specifically, how do you design a gun for steel case ammo and dirty powder? |
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Kind of off-topic, but what makes you guys claim that AKs were designed for crappy ammo, and that ARs are designed for good ammo? i would say that in russia the majority of ammo used is steal cased so they design guns that work with well with that. I.E. dirtier ammo, harder on the extractor and in the US we design guns to mostly shoot brass. Specifically, how do you design a gun for steel case ammo and dirty powder? IMHO i dont think the weapon was "designed" for that, as the demand for supplies increased over the decades and certain metals became more precious in the Communist era,(who knows now we might start purchasing steel cased ammo in our country) Manufacturers found that the AK's were a superior piece of equipment, thus it would tolerate a less expensive metal, I would argue that the gun wasnt designed for steel case and dirty powder, but the ammo was designed around the weapon. Besides WOLF is obviously getting the job done as we were paying in the upwards of 350 bucks a k not to long ago. When 7.62x39 ammo is mentioned, wolf is the first manufacturer anyone would mention |
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Quoted: I would argue that the gun wasnt designed for steel case and dirty powder, but the ammo was designed around the weapon. Besides WOLF is obviously getting the job done as we were paying in the upwards of 350 bucks a k not to long ago. When 7.62x39 ammo is mentioned, wolf is the first manufacturer anyone would mention The ammo predates the weapon. |
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I would argue that the gun wasnt designed for steel case and dirty powder, but the ammo was designed around the weapon. Besides WOLF is obviously getting the job done as we were paying in the upwards of 350 bucks a k not to long ago. When 7.62x39 ammo is mentioned, wolf is the first manufacturer anyone would mention The ammo predates the weapon. My apologies, i might be misunderstanding, so the "crappy ammo" predated the ak47 or the 7.62x39 round in general predated the rifle |
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Alright - I'll skip to the end of the rhetorical questions. The point is that there's nothing that people do to design a gun around crappy ammo, or vice-versa. Yes, the 7.62x39 has more taper which eases extraction, but that doesn't mean that guns that shoot 7.62x39 are inherently more tolerant of crappy ammo. People don't make crappy AK ammo because they know it will run OK in AKs. In the same manner, Stoner didn't design the AR to run on premium ammo that's brass cased. If anyone can find reliable evidence - not hearsay - to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. |
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Kind of off-topic, but what makes you guys claim that AKs were designed for crappy ammo, and that ARs are designed for good ammo? Part of it (IMO) comes from the inherent accuracy of the rifles. AK is a 200-300 yard rifle. I don't think there is a reason to try to make ammo that shoots better than 3 MOA if you're going to be shooting it from an AK. I have an SKS that shoot great @ 100-200 yards, but weird things start to happen just past the 200 yard mark. I think it has something to do with the short, stubby, .311 bullet. An AR is a 300-400 yard rifle. It shouldn't be hard at all to get a decent shooter to print 2MOA groups with an AR if they are trained well. |
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Alright - I'll skip to the end of the rhetorical questions. The point is that there's nothing that people do to design a gun around crappy ammo, or vice-versa. Yes, the 7.62x39 has more taper which eases extraction, but that doesn't mean that guns that shoot 7.62x39 are inherently more tolerant of crappy ammo. People don't make crappy AK ammo because they know it will run OK in AKs. In the same manner, Stoner didn't design the AR to run on premium ammo that's brass cased. If anyone can find reliable evidence - not hearsay - to the contrary, I'd love to hear it. hmmm i guess wolf or brown bear .223 is 100's of dollers cheaper for a case because its just as good as lake city .223 ammo if you ask people who know there ar's theyll tell you high quality brass cased ammo is noticably more accurate then steel cased. |
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Specifically, how do you design a gun for steel case ammo and dirty powder? Highly tapered cartridge and loose tolerances. Do you mean "clearances" (the allowable space between parts)? The clearances are "large" as part of the effort to allow the rifle to operate in adverse conditions, for example with foreign matter between the parts. There is no evidence that I'm aware of that proves that the tolerences (the allowable difference in the dimensions of parts) on an AK are "loose" (whatever that means in connection with the concept of tolerences). My guess is that you don't have any such information either. |
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Quoted: hmmm i guess wolf or brown bear .223 is 100's of dollers cheaper for a case because its just as good as lake city .223 ammo if you ask people who know there ar's theyll tell you high quality brass cased ammo is noticably more accurate then steel cased. No. You're missing the point. People made a claim that AKs are designed for crappy ammo, and ARs are designed for quality ammo. Wolf and other imported ammo is of lesser quality than a lof of brass cased ammo, but that has nothing to do with the steel case - it's quality control. There's no reason why someone couldn't make quality steel cased ammo that's every bit as good as brass cased ammo. |
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Specifically, how do you design a gun for steel case ammo and dirty powder? Highly tapered cartridge and loose tolerances. The ammo predates the rifle. You're implying the reverse. The ammo dosen't predate all rifles. This could apply to any rifle. |
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<snip> Repeating what I said earlier: The AR and AK aren't designed for crappy any more than they are designed for premium ammo. If you have reliable evidence to the contrary (not internet hearsay), I'd love to see it. I'm sorry apperently you mis-understood my above post. No where did I say the Wolf/Russian/Commie ammo was crappy or that an AR was made for permium ammo. Others may have but not me. I replied to the question about steel cases and dirty power. As I'm sure you know most Communist ammo is steel case and has a high taper from the bottom to the top of the case, as examples the 7.62x39, 7.62x54 and 5.45x39. All for the most part - steel case and tapered. I believe and have read the taper was to allow the steel case to be easier to eject from the chamber. The question was "how do you design a rifle for a steel case?" I repled "tapered cartridge". US ammo is all brass cased. The 5.56 and 7.62x51 case is only slightly tapered compared to the Commie ammo. It's a know fact that many AR15's have problems shooting a steel case, they get stuck in the chamber very often compared to brass case. And I mearly said "loose tolerances" for dirty power as a possible design coonsideration to prevent issues with excessive fouling. My surplus Russian 5.45 makes noticably more fouling than shooting Silver Bear 5.45. |
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US ammo is all brass cased. Incorrect. One of the most common examples of non-brass cased US ammo is CCI Blazer with an aluminum case. Hornady also manufactures .223 ammo with a steel case. Hornady is also coming out with steel-cased 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo. |
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Kind of off-topic, but what makes you guys claim that AKs were designed for crappy ammo, and that ARs are designed for good ammo? i would say that in russia the majority of ammo used is steal cased so they design guns that work with well with that. I.E. dirtier ammo, harder on the extractor and in the US we design guns to mostly shoot brass. Do you have any proof that the mild steel case of Wolf et al. is harder on the extractor? |
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US ammo is all brass cased. Incorrect. One of the most common examples of non-brass cased US ammo is CCI Blazer with an aluminum case. Hornady also manufactures .223 ammo with a steel case. Hornady is also coming out with steel-cased 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo. Sorry, when I said US, I was referring to the US military since that is what the 5.56 and 7.62x51 was designed for. As far as I know the US military is not currently using Blazer or Hornady ammo (at least not back when the rifles were designed in the 50's and 60's). |
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Quoted: Sorry, when I said US, I was referring to the US military since that is what the 5.56 and 7.62x51 was designed for. As far as I know the US military is not currently using Blazer or Hornady ammo (at least not back when the rifles were designed in the 50's and 60's). The military is indeed thinking about switching to steel cased/polymer cased ammo for at some calibers (.50BMG - 40mm). http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2009infantrysmallarms/tuesdaysessioniii8550.pdf |
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US ammo is all brass cased. Incorrect. One of the most common examples of non-brass cased US ammo is CCI Blazer with an aluminum case. Hornady also manufactures .223 ammo with a steel case. Hornady is also coming out with steel-cased 7.62x39 and 5.45x39 ammo. Sorry, when I said US, I was referring to the US military since that is what the 5.56 and 7.62x51 was designed for. As far as I know the US military is not currently using Blazer or Hornady ammo (at least not back when the rifles were designed in the 50's and 60's). No worries, thanks for clarifying. 
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