AK Sponsor
Posted: 9/7/2011 8:31:13 PM EDT
|
Does the truniom have to riveted to the receiver first, and then add the barrell, Or can the barrrel and trunion be riveveted onto the reciver as 1 unit?
i already have the Trunion and Barrel together and headspaced, |
|
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. I've never tried that... By "bucking bar" what do you mean? Sounds like an interesting way to do it. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The biggest problem with this method is, even if you manage to drive the rivet into the trunnion without it expanding outside of the receiver, how do you know the rivet expanded properly on the inside? Provided standard build tools and a hydraulic press, it's next to impossible to make the rivets set this way properly. On all the demilled kits I've built, not one from any nationality has used the barrel as a bucking bar. Not the Russians, Romanians, Hungarians, Egyptians, Yugoslavians, Bulgarians or Poles. The rivets are set deep into the recesses machined into the trunnion and make zero contact with the barrel. OP, if you set, head spaced the barrel and cut the hole for the barrel pin, it's easy to press the barrel back out and rivet the trunnion. The notch cut into the barrel for the pin is your head spacing index. |
I have been building AKs for quite some time and for the past two years I have stopped riveting until the barrel is in the trunion (I buck against the barrel). I started doing that after demilling builds others did in the build group where they did that and to my surprise they looked like the rivets we were removing from the kits (unlike those riveted using the bolt cutter rivet tools before installing the barrel). I have certainly seen my share of failed rivets but not any from this method (the one we had to demill was due to a crooked/crappy barrel assembly when non-barreled kits first came out and everyone was selling assembled barrel assemblies). 
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The biggest problem with this method is, even if you manage to drive the rivet into the trunnion without it expanding outside of the receiver, how do you know the rivet expanded properly on the inside? Provided standard build tools and a hydraulic press, it's next to impossible to make the rivets set this way properly. On all the demilled kits I've built, not one from any nationality has used the barrel as a bucking bar. Not the Russians, Romanians, Hungarians, Egyptians, Yugoslavians, Bulgarians or Poles. The rivets are set deep into the recesses machined into the trunnion and make zero contact with the barrel. OP, if you set, head spaced the barrel and cut the hole for the barrel pin, it's easy to press the barrel back out and rivet the trunnion. The notch cut into the barrel for the pin is your head spacing index. your right. the correct way is to rivet first then install the barrel |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. lol wut?! 
I have yet to see this on ANY AK parts kit that needed to be demilled. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. lol wut?!
I have yet to see this on ANY AK parts kit that needed to be demilled. I have yet to not see it on any trunnion that still had rivets in it. A kit can be completed that way. uscombatdiver's earlier post summed it up pretty well. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most.
|
|
Quoted:
Does the truniom have to riveted to the receiver first, and then add the barrell, Or can the barrrel and trunion be riveveted onto the reciver as 1 unit? i already have the Trunion and Barrel together and headspaced, If the barrel & trunnion has been apart then it shouldn't take much pressure to push the barrel pin out and remove the barrel from the trunnion. It can be done with a punch & hammer.(I've done it before) Here are some videos that showed me how. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZ_y_CkNrIs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9FVm3UkowI To put the barrel back in I use the all-thread method. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most. Argue if you must, I assure you that the front trunnion rivets are not bucked against the barrels in factory built AKs. As for the practice by "rebuilders", its just a work around from doing the job correctly by people who are basically inexperienced and lacking tools and knowledge. Do a search on the subject at the AK files forum and see what the most experienced builders say.....none of them condone it or practice it as its an inferior way to assemble an AK. Even a "screw build" is superior to a rivet bucked against an already pressed barrel. |
| I have noticed that to but you would have to make a buckling bar to match the rivet heads on both sides or on one side and then compress them with your press... Im sure if in the real world you can figure this out but don't you think its too much for a newbie to do and get further confused.... But I do agree you can just I wouldn't do it no do I recommend it ... I like to see the back of the rivet to make sure I have compressed it right,,,,I don't feel that there is only one right way of doing any single task just the way it has worked for me...Another thing is are you taking into account the rivet would have to be longer and there is no guarantee your rivet head would not begin to skew since its being compressed from the front to the back first as some do on scope rails when not having the right head fixture to compress the rivet..... Personally I haven't tried it this way but I have never seen rivet marks on any of the barrels I have purchased from centerfire nor on any of the ones I have de-milled but I do see what you mean about the rivets on some builds are concave on the back, never paid much attention to that..I don't recommend fireing a new build with our safety checking it first no with out head spacing it also, since I try to preach what I practice but to each his own...annnnnd since you have to have the right tool to do the job since you still have to compress the rivets in the mag well I don't see what advantage there is to do it with the barrel on.... |
| i made my bucking bar to fit each hole. on one end it has a vertical raised area, on the other end there is a horizontal raised area. i used a air hammer to set the rivits against the bucking bar. then if i had any protrusion into the barrel area, i used a dremmel to clean it to not interfere with the barrel surface. i only had to dremmel one rivit. all of the rest sat below flush after driving them in. as inexperienced as i am, i do not believe that bucking against the barrel is a good idea. not saying it cant be done, i would just rather do it the way i was taught by previous builders that had alot more experience than myself. |
| Believe me I'm not saying it's wrong,,,, just saying it's not the way I learned so I can't recommend what I don't do,but to each his own.but I love learning new things and I'm glad u told me another way....watching Black market arms I learned to weld on the rails then bend with the AK builder jjig.. But it's still more accurate to bend then test the carrier with the trunnion in place then weld. Less having to adjust the rails at the end of the build... But again to each his own.. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most. Argue if you must, I assure you that the front trunnion rivets are not bucked against the barrels in factory built AKs. As for the practice by "rebuilders", its just a work around from doing the job correctly by people who are basically inexperienced and lacking tools and knowledge. Do a search on the subject at the AK files forum and see what the most experienced builders say.....none of them condone it or practice it as its an inferior way to assemble an AK. Even a "screw build" is superior to a rivet bucked against an already pressed barrel. Wow, you mean there are more experienced builders than I? I have been doing it for over six years and we have built hundreds, but ok. We also have more tools than necessary. Whatever you say, I still stand by the fact that rivets bucked against the barrel look more like those in the kits we are using.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most. Argue if you must, I assure you that the front trunnion rivets are not bucked against the barrels in factory built AKs. As for the practice by "rebuilders", its just a work around from doing the job correctly by people who are basically inexperienced and lacking tools and knowledge. Do a search on the subject at the AK files forum and see what the most experienced builders say.....none of them condone it or practice it as its an inferior way to assemble an AK. Even a "screw build" is superior to a rivet bucked against an already pressed barrel. Wow, you mean there are more experienced builders than I? I have been doing it for over six years and we have built hundreds, but ok. We also have more tools than necessary. Whatever you say, I still stand by the fact that rivets bucked against the barrel look more like those in the kits we are using. Do you work for Century? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most. Argue if you must, I assure you that the front trunnion rivets are not bucked against the barrels in factory built AKs. As for the practice by "rebuilders", its just a work around from doing the job correctly by people who are basically inexperienced and lacking tools and knowledge. Do a search on the subject at the AK files forum and see what the most experienced builders say.....none of them condone it or practice it as its an inferior way to assemble an AK. Even a "screw build" is superior to a rivet bucked against an already pressed barrel. Wow, you mean there are more experienced builders than I? I have been doing it for over six years and we have built hundreds, but ok. We also have more tools than necessary. Whatever you say, I still stand by the fact that rivets bucked against the barrel look more like those in the kits we are using. Oh geez, now comes the word play 
Yes there are plenty of more experienced builders than you, who also have a bit more knowledge of engineering and physics too. No matter what the rivets look like in the kits you are using, if they were built in a modern factory the rivets were not bucked against an installed barrel. I don't care if you've built a million of them. If you've built them by bucking the rivets against the already installed barrel, you've built them differently than the factory proceedure and you put a bunch of substandard AKs in service. You might be a parts assembler but your knowledge of the simple mechanics of rivetting is lacking. |
|
Quoted:
Gee guys, I did not want to start an arguement here. My profession LEO, I am not a welder, builder or "Rosie the riveter" I put the build on hold for now, Birthdays, Hilidays and my son's christening are all coming up. Thanx for the advice. No big deal, just trying to prevent you from getting bad advice. Just remove the barrel and rivet the gun correctly the first time around and save yourself some future grief and have a properly assembled gun. Ask around and see if there is a build party going on anywhere local. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most. Argue if you must, I assure you that the front trunnion rivets are not bucked against the barrels in factory built AKs. As for the practice by "rebuilders", its just a work around from doing the job correctly by people who are basically inexperienced and lacking tools and knowledge. Do a search on the subject at the AK files forum and see what the most experienced builders say.....none of them condone it or practice it as its an inferior way to assemble an AK. Even a "screw build" is superior to a rivet bucked against an already pressed barrel. Wow, you mean there are more experienced builders than I? I have been doing it for over six years and we have built hundreds, but ok. We also have more tools than necessary. Whatever you say, I still stand by the fact that rivets bucked against the barrel look more like those in the kits we are using. Oh geez, now comes the word play
Yes there are plenty of more experienced builders than you, who also have a bit more knowledge of engineering and physics too. No matter what the rivets look like in the kits you are using, if they were built in a modern factory the rivets were not bucked against an installed barrel. I don't care if you've built a million of them. If you've built them by bucking the rivets against the already installed barrel, you've built them differently than the factory proceedure and you put a bunch of substandard AKs in service. You might be a parts assembler but your knowledge of the simple mechanics of rivetting is lacking. I would love to meet some one who has more knowledge of engineering and physics (seeing how that's my area of education I meet them all the time, but hardly in AK building) you obviously aren't that Huckleberry. Nothing like spreading misinformation about something you don't even know. I changed the way I did things when I noticed that rivets bucked against the barrel looked exactly like those coming off kits. But if you want to argue the physics or engineering end of it the fastener is just the same whether it is bucked against something (which is the airline industry standard way of doing it) or crushed. I would put my AKs up against yours any day for durability, dependability and accuracy. All mine remain in my own private collection and I only build them using methods and tools I consider correct for the job.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
No you must rivet the trunnion to the reciever frist then install the barrel and headspace it.... No, it can be done either way. You can install the barrel in the trunnion, then buck the rivets against the barrel. If you've ever demilled a trunnion, you can see that the rivets are usually concave and matching the curve of the barrel. So it looks like most eastern block countries were smashing rivets against barrels. The rivets were not bucked against the barrels. If you look a little closer and feel the old rivets in the trunnion, better yet measure, you'd find that the rivets are set back from the barrel journal in the trunnion and were done prior to the barrel being installed. I've demilled a couple of dozen AKs of various types and not a one was bucked against the barrel from the factory and they all had concave surfaces in the barrel journal. An even better indicator of what you state being false is, there is no rivet marks on the barrel surface when the barrel is driven out of the trunnion. They do not contact the barrel at all. Bucking against the barrel is not the correct way to assemble an AK and no manufacturer does it that way. I would have to argue, maybe some one should find Ivan and ask him how it's really done back in the mother land. I have paid particular attention to the contour and feel of the rivets. They have rubbing which doesn't appear to be caused by the barrel being pressed in (there would be a gap at the front of the trunion if that was the case). The rubbing seems ever so slight and pointed forward (probably due to when the barrel was pressed out). This coupled with the fact that compared to ones built by others in the build group both ways it is the ones bucked up against the barrel that mimic those coming in the kits the most. Argue if you must, I assure you that the front trunnion rivets are not bucked against the barrels in factory built AKs. As for the practice by "rebuilders", its just a work around from doing the job correctly by people who are basically inexperienced and lacking tools and knowledge. Do a search on the subject at the AK files forum and see what the most experienced builders say.....none of them condone it or practice it as its an inferior way to assemble an AK. Even a "screw build" is superior to a rivet bucked against an already pressed barrel. Wow, you mean there are more experienced builders than I? I have been doing it for over six years and we have built hundreds, but ok. We also have more tools than necessary. Whatever you say, I still stand by the fact that rivets bucked against the barrel look more like those in the kits we are using. Oh geez, now comes the word play
Yes there are plenty of more experienced builders than you, who also have a bit more knowledge of engineering and physics too. No matter what the rivets look like in the kits you are using, if they were built in a modern factory the rivets were not bucked against an installed barrel. I don't care if you've built a million of them. If you've built them by bucking the rivets against the already installed barrel, you've built them differently than the factory proceedure and you put a bunch of substandard AKs in service. You might be a parts assembler but your knowledge of the simple mechanics of rivetting is lacking. I would love to meet some one who has more knowledge of engineering and physics (seeing how that's my area of education I meet them all the time, but hardly in AK building) you obviously aren't that Huckleberry. Nothing like spreading misinformation about something you don't even know. I changed the way I did things when I noticed that rivets bucked against the barrel looked exactly like those coming off kits. But if you want to argue the physics or engineering end of it the fastener is just the same whether it is bucked against something (which is the airline industry standard way of doing it) or crushed. I would put my AKs up against yours any day for durability, dependability and accuracy. All mine remain in my own private collection and I only build them using methods and tools I consider correct for the job. Well you must be using smart rivets that know not to harden and swell as soon as resistance is felt on the tail. Where would I get rivets that know nothing about physics. Your rivets will have more shear strength than tension and they were designed to have a good amount of both. In my profession I've shot aluminum and steel rivets and I can tell you right now, you know nothing about riveting. So don't even mention the "aircraft industry way of doing it" because if anyone saw you try to shoot a rivet that didn't have the head in place against the metal you'd be run off the job, thats what I do, thats what I know and your doing it wrong by driving it in against the barrel so quit trying to bs people. A well driven rivet should be fully seated before being shot. The fact that NO PROFESSIONAL BUILDERS use your methods should tell you something. Century might do it your way, I know of a yugo underfolder that had to be tore down and have new rivets put in because one was loose. Oh, and I've only done half the no. of builds you say you have, and on every demill I've seen from 5 different countries NONE of the rivets had been driven against the barrels, they were flat and fully seated in the trunnion. The tails you form your way may be fine for average use, but its not the way it was done at the factory. The correct methods to build a ak rifle were researched long before you got into it. Some forums even had people on there who worked in the factories. THIS is how its done on aircraft.......http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lASKZonRmuM&feature=results_video&playnext=1&list=PL8907BEF71AF1A9AE |
|
While I certainly have obtained (and continue to obtain more) the education some only wish they could, I have worked in metal shops since I was walking (building my first motorcycle at the ripe age of 8 out of junk parts and fabricated parts by myself and my cousin who was 7). I am much older than 8, multiples of that really and continue to build things regularly using all sorts of fastening methods (including rivets). Tell you what, not everyone is born smart (that includes me especially). So, a simple experiment you can conduct that will illustrate what happens when you 'crush' some metal against something here's what you can do. Get a hammer, nail, notebook, pen, marker and caliper. Now, take the diameter measuerments of the length of the nail every 1/8 inch (be sure to mark each spot using the marker that you measure). Be sure to write these measurements down in your trusty notebook. Now, take the nail and press it against another hard (preferibly metal) surface like that of a vise. Wack it hard (if it helps pretend it's me). Take the measurements again and repeat until you are convinced where the metal will expand. Notice (and in case you don't want to perform this experiment) the part being pressed against the hard surface is the one that expands, not the body. Metal, unlike the water balloon you are imagining, has a structure that will not expand outwards unless it is being displaced by something else. Another great example is when you try to do long rivets and get the heads to form using a hammer. The darn thing mushrooms and then bends near the receiver where it is supported (notice, if you had to you could cut off the mushroomed head and remove the rivet without too much effort). Again, the hard thing is getting that rivet to expand near the base of the receiver while wacking the end of it with whatever you use to shape your rivets. Now that we have ended the name calling and ignorant comments. The fact is, you can buck against the barrel and get a rivet far more like those coming in the kits (they are shaped around the barrel, not crushed and untouched like what would happen if the rivets were shaped prior to installing the barrel).
|
|
Quoted:
While I certainly have obtained (and continue to obtain more) the education some only wish they could, I have worked in metal shops since I was walking (building my first motorcycle at the ripe age of 8 out of junk parts and fabricated parts by myself and my cousin who was 7). I am much older than 8, multiples of that really and continue to build things regularly using all sorts of fastening methods (including rivets). Tell you what, not everyone is born smart (that includes me especially). So, a simple experiment you can conduct that will illustrate what happens when you 'crush' some metal against something here's what you can do. Get a hammer, nail, notebook, pen, marker and caliper. Now, take the diameter measuerments of the length of the nail every 1/8 inch (be sure to mark each spot using the marker that you measure). Be sure to write these measurements down in your trusty notebook. Now, take the nail and press it against another hard (preferibly metal) surface like that of a vise. Wack it hard (if it helps pretend it's me). Take the measurements again and repeat until you are convinced where the metal will expand. Notice (and in case you don't want to perform this experiment) the part being pressed against the hard surface is the one that expands, not the body. Metal, unlike the water balloon you are imagining, has a structure that will not expand outwards unless it is being displaced by something else. Another great example is when you try to do long rivets and get the heads to form using a hammer. The darn thing mushrooms and then bends near the receiver where it is supported (notice, if you had to you could cut off the mushroomed head and remove the rivet without too much effort). Again, the hard thing is getting that rivet to expand near the base of the receiver while wacking the end of it with whatever you use to shape your rivets. Now that we have ended the name calling and ignorant comments. The fact is, you can buck against the barrel and get a rivet far more like those coming in the kits (they are shaped around the barrel, not crushed and untouched like what would happen if the rivets were shaped prior to installing the barrel). You still don't understand but almost, your close. When the head of the rivet is not flush with the metal, the exposed shank under it doesn't know NOT to expand as it is driven it against the barrel. The only result is your tail will be smaller. The tail of the rivet would be bell shaped as a result and they are not. There is no riveting used in a manufacturing process anywhere that would accept that. Your thinking that the exposed part of the rivet under the head will just slip through the hole in the trunnion and only expand on the tail is wrong. Also, why do you suppose nobody had ever demilled a kit and found marks on the barrel???? As the rivet is driven it work hardens and will be harder than the barrel yet there has never been any marks on the barrels. As I said, if you want to build kits that way, go ahead, none of the professionals do it that way and it was researched long ago so you haven't discovered a lost art, its just not the way it was done at the factory. It may work well enough for you, but its not the way its supposed to be done, having worked on aircraft for 22 years I've seen a few guys try to take shortcuts like this and they didn't last long or they shaped up. I have 10,000 times more experience than you riveting, I know what the industry standards are and the way it is supposed to be done, you're guessing, whether your use a rivet squeezer or a rivet gun, the head of the rivet must be flush with the metal period. Its the only way to get the proper tail. |
| the rivets are installed first then the barrel is pressed in. to press the rivets against the barrel is a half assed short cut. akbuilder sells the tools to rivet correctly for a reason. they have sold more flats,rivets,tools and supplies then anyone in the ak business.never seen them suggest pressing rivets against a barrel. if you do it that way you have no idea how well they have swelled. the key is to get them to swell and be set properly so they dont ride against the barrel.none of the kits I have taken apart had the rivets pressed against the barrel. if they did there would be,major gall marks on the barrel,when it was removed |
|
Quoted:
the rivets are installed first then the barrel is pressed in. to press the rivets against the barrel is a half assed short cut. akbuilder sells the tools to rivet correctly for a reason. they have sold more flats,rivets,tools and supplies then anyone in the ak business.never seen them suggest pressing rivets against a barrel. if you do it that way you have no idea how well they have swelled. the key is to get them to swell and be set properly so they dont ride against the barrel.none of the kits I have taken apart had the rivets pressed against the barrel. if they did there would be,major gall marks on the barrel,when it was removed And we all know that selling something directly relates to it's necessity...why else would everyone buy it? (and yes I have purchased and own all the AK tools anyone could possibly imagine/want). Contrary to popular belief the rivets are not as hard or harder than the barrel and therefore incapable of 'galling' the barrel...why don't the rivet heads 'gall' the rivet tools? Thus far we have gone in circles about evidence of how it was originally done. Mine is based on the differences of demilled kits rivets (both those using a rivet tool and those bucked against the barrel) and can identify beyond a shadow of a doubt the original rivets pressed out of the trunion of imported kits and they don't look like the rivets pressed by the rivet tools! The rivets coming from the imported kits have taken on the curvature/contour of the barrel...unlike those done by the finest rivet tools. Yours is that everyone is doing it so it must be the right way to everyone buys it, so it must be the right way...sounds a little lacking in logic.
|
|
I just checked a demilled Yugo M92 with barrel still in trunnion, a Romanian AIMR kit with barrel pressed, a Bulgarian AK-74 kit barrel in trunnion, and a Saiga .223 with barrel pressed. Not a single kit has any contact between the crushed rivet tails and the barrel extension. The rivets are set deep in the trunnion, where they don't contact the barrel. Furthermore, there's nearly a full millimeter gap between the rearmost trunnion rivet and the barrel on the Yugo M92, and the visible rivet is driven flat. In all cases, the rivets were crushed before barrels were installed.
Anyone else with a kit, check it out. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
the rivets are installed first then the barrel is pressed in. to press the rivets against the barrel is a half assed short cut. akbuilder sells the tools to rivet correctly for a reason. they have sold more flats,rivets,tools and supplies then anyone in the ak business.never seen them suggest pressing rivets against a barrel. if you do it that way you have no idea how well they have swelled. the key is to get them to swell and be set properly so they dont ride against the barrel.none of the kits I have taken apart had the rivets pressed against the barrel. if they did there would be,major gall marks on the barrel,when it was removed And we all know that selling something directly relates to it's necessity...why else would everyone buy it? (and yes I have purchased and own all the AK tools anyone could possibly imagine/want). Contrary to popular belief the rivets are not as hard or harder than the barrel and therefore incapable of 'galling' the barrel...why don't the rivet heads 'gall' the rivet tools? Thus far we have gone in circles about evidence of how it was originally done. Mine is based on the differences of demilled kits rivets (both those using a rivet tool and those bucked against the barrel) and can identify beyond a shadow of a doubt the original rivets pressed out of the trunion of imported kits and they don't look like the rivets pressed by the rivet tools! The rivets coming from the imported kits have taken on the curvature/contour of the barrel...unlike those done by the finest rivet tools. Yours is that everyone is doing it so it must be the right way to everyone buys it, so it must be the right way...sounds a little lacking in logic.
what you are claiming is completely false and are mistaken,IMO.It doesnt matter how the us made tools set the end of the rivet,they are not the same tools as the original manufacturers. the fact remains,as already pointed out that a swell neck rivet must sit flush to the surface,inorder to be properly swelled for a strong shock resistant fastener.thats the way all rivets are made. no manufacturer pounds a rivet home,they are set in place and the end is swelled. also, like just mentioned too,the factory rivets are set in deeper and do not touch the barrel at all. none of the kits I have built have had the rivets pressed up against the barrel. and yes,all those guys that have been building ak's for years the right way.......are right,whether they want to build their own tools like I do, or buy them from that company that is highly regarded and sells the best products in the business. no one I have ever seen likes to smash a rivet up against a nice smooth barrel face and screw it up. |
|
I have built about 20+ kits. All of rivets have been recessed when I looked at them after the barrel was removed. This tells me that the rivets have been crushed prior to the barrel being installed.
Romanian, Bulgarian, Yugoslavian, Polish etc..... If it seems like everyone is ganging up on you it is simple logic. You may have seen one kit that appeared to have the rivet bucked against the barrel but that is just one kit. Now is seems like you have drawn the conclusion that the rivets were bucked against the barrel, or you got a group of kits that were assembled by monkeys. Please let us know when you will be shooting them and at what range so we can all avoid being in the vicinity when it goes KABOOM! Take care and be safe. Squish them before you install the barrel. |
|
Quoted:
I just checked a demilled Yugo M92 with barrel still in trunnion, a Romanian AIMR kit with barrel pressed, a Bulgarian AK-74 kit barrel in trunnion, and a Saiga .223 with barrel pressed. Not a single kit has any contact between the crushed rivet tails and the barrel extension. The rivets are set deep in the trunnion, where they don't contact the barrel. Furthermore, there's nearly a full millimeter gap between the rearmost trunnion rivet and the barrel on the Yugo M92, and the visible rivet is driven flat. In all cases, the rivets were crushed before barrels were installed. Anyone else with a kit, check it out. I've conclude the same results and stated so in my first post in this thread. Thank you for your confirmation. 
Evidently at least one person in this thread is just too thick to realize they're mistaken, worse yet, they try to justify and pass along poor building practices and information to newbies. Numbers of builds under one's belt doesn't mean shit if done wrong the whole time, it just means there are a bunch of poorly assmebled AKs in service. Thanks for the post of support of the truth. |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
I just checked a demilled Yugo M92 with barrel still in trunnion, a Romanian AIMR kit with barrel pressed, a Bulgarian AK-74 kit barrel in trunnion, and a Saiga .223 with barrel pressed. Not a single kit has any contact between the crushed rivet tails and the barrel extension. The rivets are set deep in the trunnion, where they don't contact the barrel. Furthermore, there's nearly a full millimeter gap between the rearmost trunnion rivet and the barrel on the Yugo M92, and the visible rivet is driven flat. In all cases, the rivets were crushed before barrels were installed. Anyone else with a kit, check it out. I've conclude the same results and stated so in my first post in this thread. Thank you for your confirmation.
Evidently at least one person in this thread is just too thick to realize they're mistaken, worse yet, they try to justify and pass along poor building practices and information to newbies. Numbers of builds under one's belt doesn't mean shit if done wrong the whole time, it just means there are a bunch of poorly assmebled AKs in service. Thanks for the post of support of the truth. If its done one way and works, and its done another way and works just as well. How can one way be wrong? |
| Guys we can post and post and post till it becomes the longest post here but the truth behind the matter is advise was given and now its up to him to decide how to proceed... I have never pressed rivets on to the barrel so I cant give advise but I do and use the Bolt cutter rivets and I aslo use one like Akbuilders I found on gunbroker and also his tools,,, Now Ill give you advise on those and I know they will work..... |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I just checked a demilled Yugo M92 with barrel still in trunnion, a Romanian AIMR kit with barrel pressed, a Bulgarian AK-74 kit barrel in trunnion, and a Saiga .223 with barrel pressed. Not a single kit has any contact between the crushed rivet tails and the barrel extension. The rivets are set deep in the trunnion, where they don't contact the barrel. Furthermore, there's nearly a full millimeter gap between the rearmost trunnion rivet and the barrel on the Yugo M92, and the visible rivet is driven flat. In all cases, the rivets were crushed before barrels were installed. Anyone else with a kit, check it out. I've conclude the same results and stated so in my first post in this thread. Thank you for your confirmation.
Evidently at least one person in this thread is just too thick to realize they're mistaken, worse yet, they try to justify and pass along poor building practices and information to newbies. Numbers of builds under one's belt doesn't mean shit if done wrong the whole time, it just means there are a bunch of poorly assmebled AKs in service. Thanks for the post of support of the truth. If its done one way and works, and its done another way and works just as well. How can one way be wrong? Because the "other" way doesn't work just as well Thats the whole point, and thats why its not done in the factory nor should it be done by rebuilders, its mechanically unsound and prone to failure and its not inspectable. It doesn't even make sense in the sequence of a build because if the rivet bends sideways, you have to remove it anyway AND get the remnants of it out from behind the trunnion. Its a lose- lose situation. Its totally impossible for a rivet bucked against a barrel to be of the same quality and mechanical soundness as one squeezed either by a press or bolt cutter type jaws. The entire structure of the rivet is different and its holding ability is not at all the same. |
|
Quoted:
Because the "other" way doesn't work just as well Thats the whole point, and thats why its not done in the factory nor should it be done by rebuilders, its mechanically unsound and prone to failure and its not inspectable. It doesn't even make sense in the sequence of a build because if the rivet bends sideways, you have to remove it anyway AND get the remnants of it out from behind the trunnion. Its a lose- lose situation. Its totally impossible for a rivet bucked against a barrel to be of the same quality and mechanical soundness as one squeezed either by a press or bolt cutter type jaws. The entire structure of the rivet is different and its holding ability is not at all the same. I'll add to this that the Russians expended considerable time and effort finding a rivet pattern for a stamped AK variant that had the strength and longevity of a milled receiver rifle. The pattern they eventually settled upon, a mix of swell neck and flat bottom rivets, would be the gold standard all other Com Bloc nations would follow for their own home grown versions. I wholeheartedly agree with tommygun2000; when bucked against the barrel, there is absolutely no way to ensure rivet quality without removing the barrel to inspect. There is no way the Russians (or any other AK-building nation, for that matter) ever constructed their rifles this way. Bucking against the barrel is simply a corner-cutting method. If this is the way Century's Bulgarian AK-74's have been put together, it would explain why I've had to fix the front trunnion rivets on three of them for friends after only a few hundred rounds fired. The rivets backed out and the trunnions slid forward in the receiver. The rivets that should've been swell necks and countersunk weren't. So I'd venture a guess and say not only does it not "work as well," but it is outright dangerous as the head space changes when the shitty rivet job fails. |
| I have considered all the advise given, and will have a qualified builder remove my barrel, and then rivet in the trunion. I am not one to gamble anymore(especially after my first marraige). You guys are great, thanks for the knowledge. There is no rush to build it, I already have 5 AKs, One is a shotgun. And if the shit really hit the fan, the FN FAL is coming out. Or maybe the M1A. |
|
I am dumbfounded that anyone claiming to be a knowledgeable AK builder would even consider using the barrel shank as a "bucking bar" to seat the rivets. Maybe I'm old-school, but the term "hack" comes to mind. It is not a viable alternative, but rather displays a complete lack of comprehension of the most basic principles of rivits. And after some 700 AKs under my belt and the corresponding demills, I have yet to see a factory job that even hinted this was the the case. A long time ago, KVar had a grainy video of the Arsenal Bulgaria factory and a few frames of their barrel installation - into an already riveted to the receiver front trunion. I suspect those who think they have seen a rivet that suggests it was bucked against the barrel journal are actually seeing a rivet that was a bit long or otherwise incompletely seated and pressing the barrel in swaged the end of the rivet as the barrel passed it. |
|
Quoted:
I am dumbfounded that anyone claiming to be a knowledgeable AK builder would even consider using the barrel shank as a "bucking bar" to seat the rivets. Maybe I'm old-school, but the term "hack" comes to mind. It is not a viable alternative, but rather displays a complete lack of comprehension of the most basic principles of rivits. And after some 700 AKs under my belt and the corresponding demills, I have yet to see a factory job that even hinted this was the the case. A long time ago, KVar had a grainy video of the Arsenal Bulgaria factory and a few frames of their barrel installation - into an already riveted to the receiver front trunion. I suspect those who think they have seen a rivet that suggests it was bucked against the barrel journal are actually seeing a rivet that was a bit long or otherwise incompletely seated and pressing the barrel in swaged the end of the rivet as the barrel passed it. Thanks for chiming in with your experience Gunplumber. |
|
THIS!
Quoted:
I am dumbfounded that anyone claiming to be a knowledgeable AK builder would even consider using the barrel shank as a "bucking bar" to seat the rivets. Maybe I'm old-school, but the term "hack" comes to mind. It is not a viable alternative, but rather displays a complete lack of comprehension of the most basic principles of rivits. And after some 700 AKs under my belt and the corresponding demills, I have yet to see a factory job that even hinted this was the the case. A long time ago, KVar had a grainy video of the Arsenal Bulgaria factory and a few frames of their barrel installation - into an already riveted to the receiver front trunion. I suspect those who think they have seen a rivet that suggests it was bucked against the barrel journal are actually seeing a rivet that was a bit long or otherwise incompletely seated and pressing the barrel in swaged the end of the rivet as the barrel passed it. |
AK Sponsor