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Posted: 6/15/2006 6:00:21 PM EDT
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I dont want to sound like an idiot, but I'm just going to ask this question outright, please be gentle. Is it necessary to use a CLP like Break-free, or is it ok just to use a Solvent like Hoppe's #9? I've always cleaned my hunting rifles and duty pistols with Hoppe's. I've read alot about CLP's on this site and still am kind of fuzzy on what they do. I mean I know its a cleaner, lube, and preservative, but I'm not sure if I can just clean my Bushmaster with Hoppes and use my TW25B to lube it. Any constructive help would be appreciated. Thanks Brian |
| If you have had good results with lubing with TW25B, then use it. You will see many different opions on this site about lubes. Everyone here lives in different parts of the world and all use something they like. I have been using BF for 24 years and like it. I have also been using Ezzox for about the last 5 years or so too. As long as you use a quality lube, there shouldn't be any problems. IMHO. |
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"Break Free" CLP is THEE stuff to have. I suggest you buy it in a bottle and no in an aerosol can. Lots can go to waste from the spray can. The bottle lets you go slowly and surely, and the application is much more precise. Just make sure you shake the bottle a few seconds. The contents of CLP can seperate if it sits too long. I use CLP on every one of my firearms (Garand, Enfield, 1911, Sig, Browning rifles, Remington rifles, Browning shtoguns, etc etc), and when needed I use Barnes CR-10 for sutting the copper in my rifle barrels. Otherwise.... it is always CLP. Once you apply CLP, do NOT use anything else on your guns. CLP has a clinging property that after a length a time will "adhere" itself to the firearm and make functionality, cleaning, and preservation of your gun that much more solid as time goes on. Use CLP and only CLP for moving parts. Whatever you do, NEVER put grease on a moving part. It gums up in cold weather and it ATTRACTS dirt, sand, and gunk. Good luck, young Padawan! 
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while this is true in general, i feel grease such as Tetra grease is useful in some applications, for example for reducing wear on the slide rails of an automatic pistol. |
+1 However, a good CLP will get your guns plenty clean enough to assure proper function. It will also lube and protect your gun with one product. Being oil based, it will penetrate into nooks and small spaces that need corrosion protection. Something that grease will not do. I recommend FP10 for all your gun care needs, though TW25B is the best gun grease out there.
IMHO this is about the worse place to use grease. Grease is best used is slow movement/high pressure areas. The locking block/barrel lockup areas of auto pistols best fit this description. Viscosity (drag) increases with speed/distance. The high speed of the slide magnifies the already high viscosity of grease. This is academic however since the forces that gun parts see are tiny compared to other machines that use grease, so there really is no need for it. |
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You need to use a copper solvent periodically. CLP will not remove the copper. I just recently cleaned a rifle where I decided that I would use a copper solvent (CR-10) for the first time on a crome-lined barrel that had only seen CLP previously and had over 4000 rds through it. Worst cleaning experience ever. The patches just kept coming out blue. (I was not using a bronze bore brush or jag) Eventually, I had to break out the JB bore compound. Hoppes #9 is a mild copper solvent. If you use it regularly just to clean a chrome-lined barrel, that will probably be enough to keep the copper from building up. |
Well, I am no physicist, but it works great for me. It reduces wear, and my Sigs, 1911s and XDs have been supremely reliable with a touch of tetra grease on the slide rails. It's what we did on our M1911A1s when I served, and they were way more reliable than the M9s we were issued later, grease or no grease. I do it becasue I have found it works well. Would you do this in Iraq or any other sand prone environment? No, probably not. Don't forget, some older rifles like the FAL and M1 were design to have a light coat of grease to operate, not just a light oil lubricant. You just can't overdo it and apply excess grease. |
| With my Glock, I find that greasing/lubing the rails have no real impact on its performance. The breech face that contacts the barrel, OTOH, has significant carbon buildup after 600 rd in a single range session, and starts to cause failures to feed or stovepiping. |
Grease can reduce wear on the rails IMO, as long as it is clean and reapplied after each cleaning. I am talking about a very thing layer, not gobs, and a fine teflon gun grease like Tetra, not wheel bearing grease. |
I totally understand, but I'm just saying that with my Glock, the source of friction isn't the rail surfaces but in fact the barrel/chamber and breech face surfaces due to the carbon buildup. On my AR, it'd have to be the inside of the bolt carrier as well as the chamber. After 600-800rd of straight Wolf in 1 sitting, I had to YANK on my bolt to pull it out of the bolt carrier for cleaning 
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Yep, Wolf may be cheap, but it's dirty and smelly! |
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CLP=Good all around product FP-10=Best lubricant Hoppes and other solvents=best cleaners (I use Loctite Cleaner and Degreaser, some people use parts cleaner) CLP is great but it is a a compromise product. It does not lube as good as a lubricant like FP-10, it does not clean as well as a dedicated solvent like Hoppe's, and does not protect as well as a preservative like Shooters Choice rust prevent. It is the best all around stuff though. That is why so many people use it. Very simple. |
I agree about the FP-10(love the stuff personally) being an excellent lube...but you do realize its a CLP,right? |
They claim it is a cleaner. My testing show that it isn't very good at rust protection compared to BF CLP. I recall that it uses chlorinated paraffins (same as Militec-1, IIRC) to yield "good" wear numbers in the lubrication tests. FP-10 is also known as Shooter's Choice FP-10. They've been around for almost 20 years and yet have NEVER been approved by the military as a suitable CLP. I'll just continue using CLP. I have not noticed an excessive wear issue even when the CLP pretty much dried up. |
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Personaly I perfer the taste of clp much better then the other lubricants on the market. Sometimes I leave the black rifles home and take the Thompson (semi) instead. With grease your face gets to dirty but with clp you just get that youthful glow to your skin and it helps with the perspiration on hot days. I will run a patch or two of hoppes down the barrell and one under where the gas tube meets the bc. last I'll wipe the fp off with a hopes patch and swab around the inside of the bc where the bolt seats and the gas enters after that its clp all the way and a blowout with the air compressor before final lube and assy. If I know I wont be using it for a while and will be locked down I soak a couple of 30cal patches with clp and go over the outside of the gun. My ar's look like new and most of my buddies look wasted and they are the same guys who think $9.99 a can is to much. Being a retired mechanic I agree 100% that carb cleaner and BRAKE cleaner remove protective lubricants. If anything transmission fluid is a very good cleaner although I've never used it for carbon or firearms I have used it to clean and lube many parts and usally the transmission mans hands are the cleanest and best looking in the winter monts then anyones in the shop |
Old news,I was involved in that thread at the time,thanks anyway...and incorrect about alot of the information provided there. |
That's fine, but your statement about FP-10 being a CLP is quasi-correct. It's a CLP under their marketing, but it is NOT a CLP in accordance with the MIL-SPEC. FP-10 has been on the market for about 20 years and hasn't qualified for the CLP spec. MPC claims its because of the expense of certifying their product (true) but all of a sudden, the war is bringing out every tom, dick, and harry with a gun oil product claiming this and that. I used FP-10 and it wasn't that impressive as a cleaner or lube or protectant. You can use whatever salt atmosphere testing you want, but the Break Free CLP does a much better job clinging to the metal (or however the metallurgists say it). Militec-1's directions state to wipe off all of the excess because it bonds with the surface or whatever is in their marketing hype. The reality is that it doesn't attract sand because the operator wiped it all off, not because it contained some magic hokus pocus that repels sand/dirt/grit even when you sandblast the stuff on there. As for odors, FP-10 smells like cinamon. I cannot detect any noticeable odor with the liquid BF CLP. This doesn't make one product better than the other. Slip 2000 Gun lube is also something else I have tried with similar results to FP-10. They claim their MIL-X meets/exceeds the latest CLP spec, and that they're still undergoing testing/certification (which is fine). The only thing I can wish in a better product than BF CLP is something that cleans and lubricates better than BF CLP but has comparable/better rust protection without buying 3 different products. So far, I have found none. |
You must be kidding me. I would recognize the Break Free CLP smell anywhere. I still get flashbacks of the hours long M16 and M60 cleaning sessions before turn in whenever I get a whiff. Very distinct fragrance, IMO. Was thinking about having my wife dab some on as perfume, but she wouldn't go for it. |
I must have gotten used to it because I don't really mind the smell at all. The aerosol stuff smells more, but the liquid isn't too bad at all. I never liked cinammon so the FP-10 odor bothers me. Slip 2000 Gun Lube smells like Singer sewing machine oil and becomes unbearable to me in confined areas. |
Yeap the FP-10 is a cleaner,although its not an aggressive cleaner due to the fact it contains no VOC's such as petro solvents. Slip2000 performs in much the same way as it also contains no VOC's. Which is a plus for me,as some of the solvents used in CLP's causes me some skin issues,mainly aerosol versions.As you know. Yeah I remember your salt water soak tests...I discussed it in length at the time...remember? As I said in the past,I tried your test procedure and determined that the test was too harsh for any of the products I had including Break Free CLP.All tests substrates failed in about twenty hours or so.More of a solubility in an acid environment test to me. And the tests was not repeatable on my end as one product would do well in one series and then fail on the next. About the only thing the salt water soak/dunk test prooved to me was that it would form rust on substrates rather quickly.The only protective coating I found that would sustain the soaking was permanently applied,such as a paint. Like I said in the past,whats next an electrolyte like battery acid. Particularly considering the fact the temporary coatings/oils that were applied as a protectant are wiped dry to the touch in the soak test procedure...this has been prooven not to be a good practice in damp environments. Which has also been shown in many of the recent tests on both the SIG and 1911 forums not to be a good practice. Relying on trace amounts of product and its chemical inhibitor to protect without its fluid film is not effective in the short or near long term.Sure there are some that work extremely well for a short time in that type of application,but will fail eventually in the somewhat long term. Eezox is one that comes to mind that does do extremely well with its film protection....but I consider the Eezox to be more of a wax than a liquid lube. Now,I have yet to see any of the test facilities to use a salt water soak test,not a ASTM or mil-spec test to say the least.I believe the longest test(ASTM or Mil-spec) done involving a salt water soak is merely a dunk of less than 10 minutes,and then is immediately placed in a humidity cabinet and then live fire. Im not willing to engage in a lengthy debate on the corrosion tests again.Its too tiring and not worth the effort,as Im just not that interested enough in it all anymore. All I can say is I have tested and used FP-10 since around 2001 and I say its good stuff,mil-spec certification or not.I have yet to see corrosion issues on my weapons. Mil-comm does not meet the Mil-spec either.But I have used and tested the Mil-comm long enough to know for myself its an excellent product no matter what the internet chatter and tests provide otherwise. Im not trying to take anything away from Break Free CLP either,its good stuff and has prooven to be so over the last 20+ years.I used it for many years and know its good,certainly not compromised as some would like folks to believe.Like Ive also said in the past ,Break Free is probably the most tested and used gun care product to ever hit the market.It might not fit the bill for everyone's needs,but its a well balanced gun care product.Im not stuck on any one product as I have several products I like.Most of which are not mil-spec certified,but thats not to say that they don't work perfectly.Nuff said. Finally I will say,the FP-10 tests good in my environmental tests that were done in the past.In fact the two part series of tests done recently by a SIGforum member shows the FP-10 to give good results as well.If I might add,much better detail and procedure than I use in just my basic lay it out in the back yard and wait environmental tests.This series of tests also involved salt spray into the environmental tests as well as a follow up cleaning to show the surface degradation as a result of the acids and moisture encountered by the substrates. Two recent tests and the FP-10 showed good,as well as several other products that were involved.So I would say its a good series of tests due to the fact it shows repeatability.And done very well to boot. sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/430601935/m/795108465/p/1 |
Like I said Im not going to debate the corrosion tests much less the Mil-spec,its just worthless for me to do so.Im sure not qualified to do so.I think most pretty much understand what the Mil-spec is...I do anyway,and the corrosion tests can be taken for what they are worth. As far as FP-10 not being a CLP because it does not meet the Mil-spec standards,well I guess Eezox,G96,Rem Oil etc.,and the mentioned Slip2000 does not meet the description as a CLP because they do not meet the mil-spec standards.All marketing hype I guess,but I have to ask hows that? Just because they are not on the QPL or do not meet all the mil-spec standards does not mean they do not work as a cleaner,a lube or protectant.Particularly considering that most of us are civilians and do not have to refer to the QPL or the DLA for supply of products. Further,I believe there were some recent issues with products other than Break Free being referred to as CLP's,maybe a copy right infringement I do not know...hence the change for instance in the FP-10 bottle labels and advertisement which now reads LCP,and have since about 2004 I believe.So yeah I guess I should change my wording when referring to other products as such to be politically correct.I stand corrected. There was also some discussion about the bottle labels of FP-10 referring to meet the Mil-spec..If you look the asterisk following the specification claims,it refers to the low temp operation not the mil-spec in general. OMG...Militec.I won't even go there. As far as the lube claims using the halogenated oils...well do a little research and I think you will see how these compounds work.Been in use for well over 30 years as such and are documented pretty well.Simply they chemically create a polymer on the metal surfaces,which does retain oil.Thats how they work.And yes they do offer EP qualities which is also well documented.The difference in all these different formulators/manufacturers using the technology is the way they formulate the technology into the product using base oils and inhibitors which are used to control the process,as well as to add to to the effectiveness. As far as a lube,Ive ran the FP-10 on my buds FA and large caliber belt feds,it does kick butt as a lube,and is long lasting in that respect.Not to mention the two day torture test I did on my M15A2.Enough to sway me as well as my bud to the FP-10 if nothing more than just a lube.Its the only other product Ive found to even come close to the Mil-comm TW25B.But hey thats just my opinion,FWTW. Thats not counting the certified ASTM documents that show this as well. No Im not stuck on the mil-spec or the claims thats used by the gun oil manufacturers.I use the products,and if I like them,I use them.Simple as that.Basically what floats my boat,is what I use. Like I said in my previous post,Im not trying to take anything away from Break Free's products as Im a huge fan of Break Free,and have been for over 17 years...yes I agree that its balanced product and I have used it long enough to say that personally. Me arguing with you about FP-10 is pointless as has been shown in the past...you like what you like,and I like what I like.Regardless of mil-spec this or that or whats advertised.Im not stuck on either and it does not sway me. Thats what makes this country what it is....the ability to make choices such as this. Again,I stand down.Ive already wasted too much of my life on this to make any of this chatter worth while.I do not work for any of the gun oil companies,I do not hold stock in these companies and could careless what or how much they sell.I have no dog in this fight other than my personal preferences and my opinions. Ive said severals times in the past I was not going to engage in these conversations,and yet I have done so again.Looks like I would learn. The Blank is out for good this time.Yall have at it. |
It may be marketed that way, but its not a CLP in the way that Breakfree is. FP10 is a excellent lubricant that does a substandard job cleaning or protecting. Breakfree actually does all three well, but not great. To call FP10 a "CLP" would be the same as calling any petrolium based lubricant from sewing machine oil to MILITEC "CLP." |
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I agree with AR15fan. FP-10 has had about 20 years to qualify under the military CLP spec. Militec has stated their product wasn't ever intended to be a cleaner. As far as I know, there are only 3 CLPs that qualify under the spec: Break Free, Sentinel, and RoyCo. |
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I use the CLP for cleaning, but I find FP-10 is a bit thicker and does a better job of keeping my SS Kimber 10mm lubricated. I use FP10 in all of my pistols, bolt action rifles and will in my AR's as soon as my uppers arrive. My M1 Garands, DSA FAL and LRB M14SA get lithium grease or surplus Plastilube on the bolt lugs and slide, while smaller parts get FP10. Rem-oil is much too light IMO, I stopped using it after a short while of not finding any lube left in the gun after shooting. 
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