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Posted: 5/1/2005 6:47:18 PM EDT
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I've searched the previous threads on accuracy and hit all around my question but want to confirm the groups collective wisdom??? I've got a .223 Colt Match Competition Target HBAR , 1:9 with an inexpensive 4x12 on a Smith Entp. carry-handle mount. Rifle has seen about 1200-1500 rounds. I've shot everything from 45gr WIN Varmint to 69gr FED Gold Medal Match and I figured these guns would shoot better. (Background is benchrest so I can shoot 1 hole groups to rule me out) The best factory ammo so far is the FED 69's at about 1.25" at 100yds off bags with light variable winds. I reload and am ready to try combinations of SIE 55gr Gamekings, Horn VMax 60gr, SIE 69gr MKings, Horn 75gr AMax moly and Berger 75gr VLD's with a mix of 4064 and Varget. I'm wrestling with chasing a handload that may or may not improve the group (hence the question). Is this about par for a bone stock AR or should I expect more? Should I skip the reloading and enjoy what I've got? Have considered purchase of a chrome-lined/free float target upper for that "one-hole" everyone talks about. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. http://www.m38a1.com/g503/223fed69s.jpg |
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to get the best accuracy from a Colt barrel you're going to have to load the round long. between the HS and the 5.56 leade there is quite a bit of bullet jump with a stock chamber. I'd ditch the "carry handle mount" for any kind of accuracy testing and any "inexpensive" scope won't stand up the forward recoil of the AR. if the barrel is new you can expect better accuracy as the bore wears in. your best (cheap/qick) bet to improve the accuracy is to move to a free floated barrel and a quality trigger. If you want to scope it go to a flattop or a gooseneck. High (or nonexistent) cheekwelds cause accuracy to suffer and the extra HOB screws with your trajectory. Even then, 1 1/4 MOA is better than milspec. If you want match grade, buy match grade. 
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before i swapped ba"rels, my 20' hbar turned in a 3/4 inch 100 yard group using cheap"varmint nightmare" 55 gr. bullets from midsouth shooters supply.with the creepy jumpy stock trigger.and I can't shoot that well. you should be doing one holers with your background.my idea of working up a load is to use what is suggested on the bottle of powder...h335,in fact...oh, and that's with a 30 year old 4x12 weaver mounted on the carry handle....maybe I was just lucky that day...
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| Thanks for the tips so far... To answer one question about the trigger, I've got the Colt Elite in it right now. Swapped it out for the stock trigger when I first got the gun. Any comments on a Wilson Combat set of low-mount rings for the flat-top appreciated as well. |
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Tweak-thanks for the comments. One last question. Do you have a recommendation for a free-float tube for this gun that will work with the stock bbl and where might I get it? Would be interested in a not-so-military looking unit. Gun's ultimate purpose is varmints/paper with intentions of a Harris bi-pod mounted. How do you keep the front sight and gas tube in place if the scope field of view runs through the front sight? Any recommendation for a set of scope mounts as you mentioned to keep the same HOB (ht over bbl?). I'll then get a better scope to test some loads with the stock bbl. If that doesn't work, then I'll be back for a bbl recommendation! |
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any of the commercially available set ups are good, they vary from sooper tricked out rail systems to simple tubes to DCM models that fit under the existing handguards. depends on what you want to do no need to remove the existing front sight if you use a scope. the FSB rarely interferes with your view. if you're not going to move to a flattop then a gooseneck mount is another option. |
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Can't say for certian but I have a similar setup and yes that's about what my 5.56mm chamber will do with standard HBAR barrel. There are some bullets better than others (mine loves 65gr gamekings from Sierra) but it hangs out in the 1 to 1.5 MoA ballpark The Rifle: And yes, the HOB of the scope SUCKS but it's what I have for now.  The targets: Fed 69gr GMM - This is pretty representative of a good day with that ammo  This is 5 shots of handloaded 65gr Gamekings using Varget powder. They range from this at the small end to about 1" 
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| I use to get sub MOA all day in my Colt Hbar Match Target 1:9. Then again I did load my own stuff. I used 55grn Nosler Ballistic Silvertip Varmint Bullets loaded .02 from Max. OAL. Used Accurate 2230 powder and Remington brass. Never had a problem with reused brass BTW. Had Lee Dies w/ factory crimp die. |
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Another suggestion. Like Sparsky said, try Winchester Supreme Ballistic Silver Tip in 55gr. My gun loves and i mean loves them. They will often get me 5 rounds touching at 100yds and 1 hole at 50yds. They have 'em at WalMart but they are $18 for 20 so they cost ya. They are what convinced me to get into handloading as my rifle was clearly capable of shooting MoA or better with the right ammo. I haven't used the Nosler bullets in any handloads yet but based on Winchesters performance I want to give it whirl someday. |
First, don’t be afraid to modify your AR, they’re easier to work on than a 1968 Camaro. You can find excellent reference material right here at this site. Any of the free float tubes will do the trick. They're a good place to start after you get your trigger sorted out. I think Model 1 has them for about $35. There isn’t much difference in any of them except the texture of the surface. If you’re only interested in varminting, I’d loose the FSB too because it can cause glare in your scope if the light hits it right. You can find gas blocks for $25. Get a new gas tube if you’re going to change the FSB out (~ $10). You can tool up to be the neighborhood AR mechanic for under $100. If you go this route, pick up a flat top (A3) upper and scope that with extra tall rings or a combo mount built especially for ARs. Once you have everything in front of you, you can do barrel changes in about 10 minutes. FWIW – I’ve had several cheap barrels shoot well under an inch and all the premium barrels should easily stay well under the 1” group size as long as they’re free floated. There is a difference in chambers for the 223 and the 5.56. The 223 has a shorter leade and tighter chamber dimensions. The 5.56 has more generous chamber dimensions and more free bore. Chrome lining will ruin any hopes of an accurate rifle, these are for military use and really have no use for guys who are looking for tiny groups. |
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Here is a load that I have been able to get sub-1/2" groups with at 100 yds.: Case Len = 1.177" (LC Match weighed to .5 gr tolerance and match prep.) OAL = Max mag clearance. For me it is 2.267" Primer = CCI Benchrest Powder = 26.1 gr of hodgdon Benchmark Bullet = 52 gr Hornady A-max Moly. (weighed to .1 gr tolerance) I have tried this load in multiple AR's and they all shot extremely well. It was originally developed for a 20" HBAR 1-9 A-max (and other polymer tip bullets such as the Ballistic tips) do well in AR's because the tip does not deform from the feed ramp when a round is chambered. A free-float handguard is a very good decision (a must in my opinion) for real good AR accuracy. Other big pluses are flat-top upper, match+ trigger groups and target crowned match grade barrels, and there are a few products out there, such as the accu-wedge, that will help to remove looseness between the upper and lower receivers. Best of luck. ** A man with a gun in his mouth only speaks vowels ** |
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This might be something you'd want to check out: www.galleryofguns.com/shootingTimes/Articles/DisplayArticles.asp?ID=1205 Mike |
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That is a pretty cool torture test article. Proves the reliability of the modern AR's. I wouldn't hold their accuracy findings as any kind of benchmark though. Anyone who has reloaded with quality in mind knows that PMC is some of the sleaziest crap made. The morons can't even put their primer hole in the middle of the primer pocket. I was able to get my pre-ban plain jane AR-15 down to sub-MOA with the right loads so I am sure you will be able to get good results with yours as well. ** A man with a gun in his mouth only speaks vowels ** |
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Just a quick update and a big THANK-YOU to everyone so far. I worked up two powders (4064 & Varget) each with 55gr Sierria HPBT GameKings, 60gr Horn V-Max, and 69gr Sierria HPBT MatchKings with two powder wgts. Each 5 shot group was loaded with Fed Match primers and I had 23.0 and 24.0 grains of powder for each round. OAL was 2.25. Needless to say, I couldn't believe the results were as drastic as they were compared to the factory ammo of all types, sizes etc. Just look at the first pic/post and you'll see why I was do dismayed with the gun. And that was the BEST of all the factory stuff! In a nutshell, it appears the gun likes the 55gr HPBT GameKings so far and the Sierria 69gr HPBT MatchKings. I'll play around with these loads now in half-grain increments on either side to see what happens next. http://m38a1.com/g503/223%20load%20a.jpg .648" Overall Group http://m38a1.com/g503/223%20load%20b.jpg .800" Overall Group As for equipment, this test was done with the same inexpensive scope as the first post. My next purchase will be better optics and the high-mounts everyone speaks of. After that will be the tools, a free-float tube and bi-pod. Thanks for the help and I look forward to frequent posts and your input. Damn this is exciting! |
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M38A1, Nice job!! I have found that the AR-15 REALLY loves hand loads as well. In fact, my I made my old boss a box of hand loads for his bushmaster and he prefers to use it for deer hunting over his 7-mag now. He just picks a vertebrae and the deer drops like a rock. |
Good deal! Sounds like you are on your way. Nice work there. |
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A scope mount I really like, for flattop, is the Armalite mount. It has adequate forward offset to get good eye relief, but best of all, it puts the scope at the same height over bore as the iron sights on A2. It is a one piece rings/base design. You can get it in 1" and 30mm. I've been using the IOR-Bucheresti M2 scope and am very pleased with it. It is a 4x fixed power. Target turrets, lit reticle, rangefinding scale, BDC, and very sharp, bright optics. |
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