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Posted: 11/22/2004 10:22:29 AM EDT
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First, equipment background: Rifle: DPMS lower with M1S A3 upper, 16" LW bbl, A2 FSB, collapsible stock. Mags: Orlite (used), D&H (new) Ammo: new Wolf Polymer, Fed XM193, Win Q3131A (all 55gr FMJ) First 500 or so rounds functioned flawlessly with all mags & ammo. Weapon fully cleaned/lubed per TM every 100 to 200 rounds. So, I went to the range yesterday with about 200 rnds of ammo and the following happened about a dozen times - with all of the above cartridges and magazines: I'd fire a few rounds, and then pull the trigger and "CLICK". Perform Slap, Pull, Observe... at which point I'd find an empy shell casing sticking out from the front of the ejection port, perpidicular to the bore, pointing to about 2 o'clock. The base is wedged into the upper with a live round underneath and partially chambered. I'd remove the empty by hand (sometimes requiring considerable force) with a forward sweep of my palm, Release, Tap and Shoot. This would happen usually after about 6 or more rounds between failures... but as I said, never more than 12 times in the 200 rnds I fired. What could the problem be? (and don't say WOLF cuz it happened with other ammo, and others shoot wolf with no difficulty). Thanks! |
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Step one, Load a single round in the mag, charge and fire. The bolt should be locked back on the bolt catch. If step one is true, Then pull extractor off bolt, and clean the rim retension channel just below the claw with a small file to remove channel end burs they may be preventing the case rim from fully seating. Add a # 60 O ring around the extractor spring, then put the rifle back together. Fire for effect. If the rifle runs fine, then problem solved. By the time the O-ring falls apart, the chamber will have been polished threw live fire, and you will no longer need the O ring. Now if even with the O ring, you still have problems, then it's time to pull the ejector and clean off any burs that may be causing it to bind in the bolt (hence not allowing it to push the round off the bolt during the end of stroke stall). Again, fire for effect, but this time watch the ejection path. If the ejection path of the spent case is forward out of the port (not bounced off the deflector then thrown forward), then it's time to check the buffer. Bottom line is pull it and give it a shake. You should hear it sound like thumping, and not BB's rattling around. If you hear the sound of BB's rolling around in the buffer, then dispose of it in the nearest trash can, and buy a real Carbine buffer with tungsten insert weigths to replace the POS that was sent with the rifle. P.S. Don't pick and choose the listed resolutions. Follow them as I wrote them, with test firings after each step. If you find a problem at one of the steps, correct it, them move on to the next step. Also, make sure that the upper bearing surfaces of the rifle have been lubed with CLP, including the buffer/recoil spring, and the inside of the receiver extension. The wrong lube, or lack of it can mask into problems that will have you searching for problems that does not exsist. |
The problem with Wolf ammo is that the cases scrap during loading, and the coating leaves a thin poly powderized coating in the chamber. On fire/ hand lapped chambers, this is not a problem. It's the combo of this powderized fouling and a rough/new chamber that can lead to problems. Simple solution is to break the rifle in threw live fire with brass case ammo until the chamber has polished out (few hundred rounds, or just hand polish it), then with the use of slighty more amounts of CLP on the upper bearing surfaces to help flush the powderized fouling that occurs, Wolf ammo runs fine in all but the tightest of chambers. P.S. This comes from a guy that shoot Wolf ammo by the pallets. So, I'm not bashing the ammo, just giving you the facts regarding using it. |
Thanks for the feedback..... I have a few questions/comments:
First, last round hold-open works fine and reliably. I also know that brass is bounced off the deflector by the marks on the front of it. You mention "pull it and give it a shake". Pull what exactly? I have never heard any BB sounds when I shake the rifle. And lastly, both of you mention "upper bearing surfaces". What exactly is that? You talking about where the bolt carrier contacts the upper reciever? I would theorize that whats happening to my rifle is that it extracts the empty, the bolt carrier flies back, and the spent case turns and starts to fly out, but sometimes the bolt carrier strips off a new round before the empty has been FULLY ejected. Then the bolt flies forward with the live/empty pair and the crosswise empty stops it short of chambering. |
you may want to add that the extraction stroke ends at the point that the extractor carriers the round on the bolt face all the way back to the end of B/C stroke (barrel pressure, and claw retension). The the ejector goes to town and forces the case off the bolt face during the end of stroke (a which time the buffer dead blows effect at the back of the receiver extension). Granted that it's a grey area, but if the case is not retained on the bolt face until the end of the rear ward stroke, the case is left/dropped in the action, and wedged forward by the charging bolt. ------- plarkinjr,
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Roger that... was just sharing what I knew so far... It will take some time to work thru all of these, as my nearest (decent/safe) range is 20 miles away... and $12 per visit, I'll get an Oring to take with me next time I go. But, you mention "pull it" and "upper bearing surfaces". Could you please clarify these for me? Thanks again! 
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The upper bearing surfaces of the upper are the carrier, the bolt, the barrel extension where the bolt locks in, the buffer/spring, inner surface of the receiver extension, and the inner surfaces of the upper where the carrier rides (anywere that metal rides against metal). As for pull it, I was refering to the the buffer. Since you are sure that you have a forward path ejection, then chances are the buffer is the correct tungsten weigth design, and not one of the cheap BB filled copies on the market. |
OK, I did this...
except that I did not have a curved file, and so was really cautious about doing that... I used pretty much the point of a flat file with a tapered profile, mostly just gently scraping the recess... it did not "hang up", so I concluded no burrs. I added a #06 (#60 is huge) o-ring and cleaned/lubed/reassembled. Went to the range with about 250 rnds of once-fired Lake City Brass reloaded by a locally reputable reloader.... fired 20 with no problems, and then it came back, about every 3rd or 4th round would hang up crosswise in the ejector port with a freshround half chambered below it and the bolt pressing this "mess" forward. Fired a total of about 30rnds in this condition. So, with these statements in my mind:
I did not have the tools at the range to tear down the ejector so I simply pulled the bolt and did the "few drops of CLP on bolt face and rock an empty casing on the ejector" several times... total of more like 3 passes with 3 drops each vs just one pass with 3 drops. The idea being to "flush the fouling" from the ejector. I reassembled and proceeded to fire the remaining 200+ rounds with no difficulty. When I got home and did my usual cleaning, I found that the bolt carrier "keyway" (I can't remember if that is the right term for the the tube on top of the bolt carrier that mates up to the gastube) had loosened. So, I removed it, cleaned it up, put it back, torqued the allen screws up real tight and staked them (a bit more aggressively). We'll see how it goes the next time I go to the range. Thanks for your help.... P.S. You think I should go ahead and pull the ejector before I return to the range? |
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The 'keyway' is the path in the upper for the bolt carrier gas key, which is the gooseneck shaped tube bolted to the top of the carrier. The charging handle fits inside it too. The gas key also keeps the bolt carrier/bolt aligned vertically within the rifle so it cannot rotate. The slot in the upper to align the barrel is also a keyway, the barrel alignment pin technically being a 'key'. But people usually refer to that as the 'barrel pin slot' or other such terms. Whenever I get guns (especially pistols) or gun parts, I always do a complete stripdown and cleaning, including looking for flaws, burrs, etc. It also gives me a chance to lube it properly without manufacturing gunk contaminating things. I always pull the ejector and run a drill bit down the hole by hand to make sure gunk and burrs are cleaned out. It would be a good idea to try that before shooting it again, it can't hurt! |
You should of told us that you had a Bushmaster carrier/ key. Would could have saved you a lot of time by just telling you to tighten up the Key allen screws to begin with. Note: If the key screws loosen up again, you will need to replace them. Failure to do so, and chances are one or both will snap (makes for a fun time trying to get the remaining part out of the carrier. |
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Well, it took a few tries to get here, but I think I've isolated the problem, though not truly solved it... First, a little add'l history: when I first posted, about all I had was Wolf. M193 was pretty short supply at the time and what little I'd fired was a bit hot. Taking your advise for BRASS over STEEL cases, I acquired over the next several weeks some Winchester white-box 223 (NOT Q3131A as previously stated) and some Dallas Reloading 55gr FMJ on Lake City brass... I'd also ordered some XM193. Since I posted last, I pulled the ejector and lightly polished it with 600grit paper, swabbed everything down and CLP'ed well. Went to the range and again FTE every 5 or 6 rounds. While at the range, I tried chambering a round, dropping the mag and firing several times. It FTE'd at one point like this (except of course a new round was not jammed up under the stuck/spent casing)... this told me it was not a MAG problem. Went home and instead of my usual CLP scrub cleaning, I made a batch of Ed's Red and dumped all the bolt parts into the stuff for an hour, scrubbed it all, blew with air and reassembled with CLP. The chamber, instead of just a chamber brush and Qtips, I added a liberal shot of aerosol brake cleaner. I also ran some copper remover and Ed's Red thru the bore (instead of my usual CLP-soaked bore-snake). By this time, my XM193 had arrived too. Went back to the range thinking this is cleanest its been since NEW.... popped in a mag of that Win 223 and it FTE'd after 6 rounds. Popped in a mag of Dallas Reloading reloads and it FTE'd a few rounds into it. So, I said to myself "what if hotter XM193 might work", so I loaded up a mag and fired... 100 rounds of M193 with ZERO FTE problems. I then proceeded to fire about 50 rounds of Wolf, again with no FTE's. Came home, cleaned up and stored it away. So, what does this mean? hotter loadings have less FTE? I'd like for my rifle to function reliably with some of the lighter loading too, so am I looking at a different/lighter buffer? |
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I had the SAME exact problem last weekend, and posted about it here: "Failure to Extract, double feeding". After driving myself batty cleaning everything at least 3 times I posted here and got a great reply. I test fired the gun today and did have to come back home and do a little more cleaning, but in the end I got it. Thank you very much for sharing your info Dano. I know this isn't my post, but I have saved your instructions in my notes. The thing that had me guessing when I ran into this problemit was AFTER I installed an E.G.R.E.S.S. Bolt upgrade on 3 of my rifles, the one I shot and my favorites. To say the least, I have learned an expensive lesson today. In the end my gun is now shooting like her old self again, Thanks to experts like you and this board. |
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As for "Hotter rounds" I've been meaning to ask you, is your M1S 16" barrel a .223 Rem. or a 5.56MM? The reason I ask is because according to what I've seen on the M1S site only the Chromed lined barrels come chambered in 5.56MM. The reason I ask is because as you know the XM193's are 5.56MM rounds and noticably "hotter" than the others you've mentioned. Shooting 5.56MM ammo through a .223 Rem. barrel is not recommended. I was thinking along the same lines as you were today, and tried shooting different rounds through the AR that was giving me problems. I also used my "Ole Faithful" magazines and the gun cycled flawlessly. I was shooting Winchester 62 gr. .223Remington rounds through it when I started having trouble, but when I loaded some Federal V-Max 50 gr. into her, she went through 4 magazines without a hiccup. I know it's a long shot, but I truly do believe that certain rounds cycle through certain guns better. Not everyone's rifle will like the same rounds as the next guys, though sometimes it might. The Federals I was shooting were hollow points too. In fact, this gun was broken in using Winchester White Box 55grainer's & V-Max rounds. This was the first time I shot anything heavier than a 55 gr bullet through this gun also. I am sticking to .223's for this particular gun because I honestly don't know if it's a 5.56MM barrel or not. I've shot some 45 gr Federals through this gun with no problems before. Way too long story short, I switched Ammo and my double feeding extracting problems went away. Damn shame too, I just got a CASE of 62 gr. Winchesters. 
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Atreides, can you post the URL to the thread that contained the solution to your problem? I ordered 5.56mNATO chamber on a Chrom-Moly barrel from Model1Sales. I assume that is what they sent me. Tweak, I have pulled the ejector and I believe the spring is OK... I've fully seated dummy rounds and spent casing in the bolt, but have not depressed the ejector by itself to look. I will do that soon however. I'm thinking about ordering some spare bolt parts and maybe swapping out ejector/extractor stuff might solve the problem. |
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I wonder if the gas hole in the barrel is partly blocked or not big enough ? sounds like some sort of a gas pressure problem to me Seldom the problem on carbines. One question, does recoil seem excessive as compared to other AR's you have fired? OK, I know Tweak does not agree, but I have seen exactly this same malfunction more than a few times, her is the problme and this is how I fixed it. The rearward speed of the carrier is too fast, for whatever reason. You have plenty of gas pressure, do not drill out the gas port. Replace the action spring aka buffer spring with the Wolff Extra Power Action Spring. This will slow the rearward speed of the bolt carrier, giving more time for the empty brass to clear the ejection port. |
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I had a problem that sounds exactly like yours. I finally fixed my problem with a good cleaning of Gun Scrubber. I had lubed the chamber with Firepower FP10 which caused vacuum pressure when firing which would keep the empty from extracting. I tried all of the fixes mentioned above and the thing that cleared up my problem was a completely DRY chamber. I still use a light fild of FP10 on the lugs and use a gererous amount of FP10 on the bolt rings and carrier rails. Works for me, MadDog 
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Well, its not an oily chamber.... I swabbed it and dried it well, went to the range and still had problems. I replaced the gas-rings and firing pin retainer (original was twisted and hard to remove/replace), and the problem persisted. I now know that the NoGo gauge I got is not sufficient - its for .223 and 5.56 is a little more tolerant. I left the house without my new extractor or ejector so I could not try that. One thing I did notice - not sure if this is a clue or not... the new firing pin retainer... after about 50 rounds, it too was hard to remove. This one was visibly bent after it came out with a semi-circular impression on it... as if the bolt's back end whacked it. |
Uhm, I guess so... you can see the firing pin retainer and the back of the bolt when retracted fully by looking from underneath the carrier. In other words, it does not have the fully shrouded firing-pin recess I've seen on M16 bolt carriers. Or do you mean something else? |
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