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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Barrel Coating (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/2/2017 9:33:36 AM EDT
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Hey Guys,
So I bought one of theseChrome-Moly steel .223 AR barrels AR24 from Lilja. Looks like its "in the white," and will need to be coated. Besides cerekoting the thing, are there any good shops I can send this thing to so that it could be nitrided or something along those lines? What sort of coating should I look into? I am open to any coatings really, I want something professional but I don't want to pay more for the service than I did for the barrel lol. I am not a good painter either, so someone else will have to do it for sure :D |
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One company is offering to nitride it inside and out for 100. I'm not sure what to think of that, wouldn't that change the characteristics of the barrel a bit? Or would it wear the same way inside. |
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One company is offering to nitride it inside and out for 100. I'm not sure what to think of that, wouldn't that change the characteristics of the barrel a bit? Or would it wear the same way inside. At least, that is my understanding. |
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Nitride application will harden the surfaces inside/out.Also will give more lubricity to the bore. At least, that is my understanding. |
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Might not hear back from them for a bit, so I thought I would do my own research, this is interesting. Finishing Touches
I will say the part "One thing Dahlke pointed out is due to the different rates at which various types of steel expand when heated, the nitriding process tends to loosen up barrel extensions. So, existing AR-type barrels that are treated must have their extensions properly timed and torqued afterward." made me nervous. It seems that it is fairly safe. I will see what they say - I may end up having is cerekoted after all, however this finish does seem nice. I will see what they say. |
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One company is offering to nitride it inside and out for 100. I'm not sure what to think of that, wouldn't that change the characteristics of the barrel a bit? Or would it wear the same way inside. |
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There have been reports in the past of installed barrel extensions unscrewing themselves from the barrel after undergoing the Nitriding process. I'd just stick with Cerakote. |
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Correct, the barrel MUST be melonited before the barrel extension is installed. As long as the extension is torqued adequately/correctly prior to treatment, it will be fine. Lilja barrels are essentially handmade by a top craftsman, I'm sure the extensions will be torqued correctly. If you're willing to spend the money, nitride will give you the best performance, longest life, and complete corrosion resistance. |
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If you have the barrel nitrided, follow Lilja's break in procedure first. I have one of their stainless barrels. Break in is not about the rifling, which has already been hand lapped. It is to remove the reamer marks from the throat.
Read their instructions and follow them. The object is to smooth out the throat. This will greatly reduce copper build up when completed and make the rifle much easier to clean. You'll see very little copper in future cleaning. Once properly broken in send it off for nitriding. If you nitride it first, you'll never be able to break it in and polish the throat. Nitride is too hard. You'll see a lot of copper every time you clean. |
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If you have the barrel nitrided, follow Lilja's break in procedure first. I have one of their stainless barrels. Break in is not about the rifling, which has already been hand lapped. It is to remove the reamer marks from the throat. Read their instructions and follow them. The object is to smooth out the throat. This will greatly reduce copper build up when completed and make the rifle much easier to clean. You'll see very little copper in future cleaning. Once properly broken in send it off for nitriding. If you nitride it first, you'll never be able to break it in and polish the throat. Nitride is too hard. You'll see a lot of copper every time you clean. |
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OPs bbl is not hand lapped. Quoted:
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If you have the barrel nitrided, follow Lilja's break in procedure first. I have one of their stainless barrels. Break in is not about the rifling, which has already been hand lapped. It is to remove the reamer marks from the throat. Read their instructions and follow them. The object is to smooth out the throat. This will greatly reduce copper build up when completed and make the rifle much easier to clean. You'll see very little copper in future cleaning. Once properly broken in send it off for nitriding. If you nitride it first, you'll never be able to break it in and polish the throat. Nitride is too hard. You'll see a lot of copper every time you clean. Sorry things got big as far as the text goes, was playing around with it and messed it up.:( |
| OP, if you do follow through with the nitriding, you might also see velocities increase by a small amount. It probably wouldn't hurt to also contact Lilja and get their opinion on having their barrel nitrided. They might be able to offer you some more information about whether it would be a good idea, or not, and why. They know what they're doing when it comes to custom barrel works. |
| I have contacted them, and they do not think the nitride process would hurt anything. They said that it should not impact accuracy at all either. I forgot to ask about the break-in - if I should do it before I have the nitriding done. So I sent a message. They are very nice people and I have really enjoyed emailing back and forth with them. If he says that I should do it before, which I suspect he will, I am just going to go the cerekote route, seems like its less risky. |
| Yeah that's what I am leaning towards. Too many variables I think. I will see what lilja says on the break in. If nothing good, I will drop it off Saturday, and wait a month to have it coated. Sniper grey is what I'm thinking, may go with a black though so I can touch it up as I know it will get scratched being so large. I am little concerned about the nitride as well in regards to responses to my questions. If the company that said they will nitride it doesn't respond to some basic questions I had by Friday noonish, I'm just going to get it cerekoted. Communication is key especially if they are backlogged and you still have questions. |
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OPs bbl is not hand lapped. Quoted:
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If you have the barrel nitrided, follow Lilja's break in procedure first. I have one of their stainless barrels. Break in is not about the rifling, which has already been hand lapped. It is to remove the reamer marks from the throat. Read their instructions and follow them. The object is to smooth out the throat. This will greatly reduce copper build up when completed and make the rifle much easier to clean. You'll see very little copper in future cleaning. Once properly broken in send it off for nitriding. If you nitride it first, you'll never be able to break it in and polish the throat. Nitride is too hard. You'll see a lot of copper every time you clean. http://riflebarrels.com/about-lilja-precision-rifle-barrels/ |
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OPs bbl is not hand lapped. Quoted:
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If you have the barrel nitrided, follow Lilja's break in procedure first. I have one of their stainless barrels. Break in is not about the rifling, which has already been hand lapped. It is to remove the reamer marks from the throat. Read their instructions and follow them. The object is to smooth out the throat. This will greatly reduce copper build up when completed and make the rifle much easier to clean. You'll see very little copper in future cleaning. Once properly broken in send it off for nitriding. If you nitride it first, you'll never be able to break it in and polish the throat. Nitride is too hard. You'll see a lot of copper every time you clean. |
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Just got my Lilja 319 back from Cerakote, I say go the Cerakote route, OP.
Attached File |
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So what does this mean for me, in that it's not hand lapped? I would assume it was done by machine. Does this change the break-in or the nitriding process? Meaning - do I still need to break it in first before the nitride process? I am new to all of this, I am learning and appreciate the help. Sorry things got big as far as the text goes, was playing around with it and messed it up.:( http://riflebarrels.com/support/centerfire-maintenance/ When I conversed several times with Carson Lilja about this he didn't want me to nitride at all. Would make no recommendation. But my barrel is stainless. I did not nitride it. Forgive my suggestion, but have you considered having the exterior simply Parkerized or satin blued by a local gunsmith, leaving the bore alone? Either that or Cerakote. |
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I have thought about parakerizing or bluing but no one around me really does that - they want to "send it off." I think after what you guys have said, and all that I have learned from you, I will just have it cerekoted. I think that makes the most sense and there is no risk in the barrel extension popping off or messing up the break in. I want to stress this - you guys have been amazing help and I so much appreciate it!
I hope the barrel lives up to its name and that I can do it justice. It ought to shoot very well one would think. |
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Just got my Lilja 319 back from Cerakote, I say go the Cerakote route, OP. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/294984/IMG-1177-200913.JPG |
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Graphite Black. |
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One thought that occurred to me was the "what if" you ended up having an issue with that barrel after you had it nitrided or melonited, would Lilja be of any assistance after this modification was done? Likely you would be on your own. |
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New interesting wrinkle:
Check out the LifeHd process The rep said it's not as harsh and imparts a very similar finish. Hmm.... |
Sent it off this morning to have the LiFe HD coating done.
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Faxon doesn't nitride their extensions. This is a quote from their FAQs page...
"For AR barrels, we DO NOT Q.P.Q. Salt Bath Nitride extensions. Extensions are black oxide finished to match the barrels and left in their original heat-treated state for maximum strength and safety." ETA: http://faxonfirearms.com/faqs/#7 |
| I had no idea faxon did not so the extensions, that is also interesting. From the representative I spoke to LiFe HD coating is not nearly as hard on the barrel but offers many of the same qualities nitirde does + the finish is smoother. I mailed mine off this morning, they are three weeks out currently. |
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Nitriding does nothing to change the material dimensionally, it is a surface hardening treatment (same as case hardening). We use this treatment on aerospace parts all the time to improve wear resistance, typically the nitrided layer is 0.020" deep. On a part that is usually in the +/- 0.0002" tolerance range, dimensions are obviously critical.
You can't go wrong with nitriding! |
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Nitriding does nothing to change the material dimensionally, it is a surface hardening treatment (same as case hardening). We use this treatment on aerospace parts all the time to improve wear resistance, typically the nitrided layer is 0.020" deep. On a part that is usually in the +/- 0.0002" tolerance range, dimensions are obviously critical. You can't go wrong with nitriding! |
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Incorrect, literally thousands of barrels get nitrided with installed barrel extensions by the big firearms oriented shops. As long as the extension is torqued adequately/correctly prior to treatment, it will be fine. Lilja barrels are essentially handmade by a top craftsman, I'm sure the extensions will be torqued correctly. If you're willing to spend the money, nitride will give you the best performance, longest life, and complete corrosion resistance. |
| Honestly, I have no idea what to expect out of this LiFe HD process. The barrel I bought, a Lothar-Walther 18 inch was treated in this. I will say, it looks SUPER smooth and even. I have not even gotten around to assembly yet, but I am sure it will be great. I am little concerned about the lilja that I sent off to be coated, but they made a good argument for the coating, not as harsh, no where near, more even and richer finish than nitride, and many of the upsides of it. So I am hoping in a few weeks to have it back and in good shape ready to mount and shoot. |
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Okay,
So no pictures as of yet, but I got my barrel back from the LiFe HD process. I am little worried here and wish I would have just listened and got it coated. The finish is beautiful, inside and out! Its smooth and looks great. However, I notice a small burr when looking for the barrel near the gas port area. I thought I would try running a cleaning rod through it but I am unsure. This process, the LiFe HD process, is supposed to be MUCH easier on the barrel, its not has hot, gives a smooth finish that is supposed to be slick, and good overall. I am just wondering what I should do about this burr. Is it time to take it to my gunsmith even after running a brass rod and patch through it? This is new old stock Lilja barrel, patrolman 23" with a .936 gasblock. |
| Nevermind, it was extra material left in the gas port. Overall I am happy with it. They did miss a small spot or it got dinged when drying. I just touched it up and it looks good now. Knowing what I know now....cereakote is the way to go for coating a barrel, especially if it's in "the white." |
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cereakote is the way to go for coating a barrel, especially if it's in "the white." Cerakote is great if you want to paint your barrel a color. LiFe and Salt Bath/QPQ are metal treatment processes that alter the surface of the metal both inside and outside the bore and change the physical performance characteristics. If your only concern is what it looks like then do whatever you want. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Barrel Coating (Page 1 of 2)
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