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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ToolCraft BCGs? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/10/2015 6:07:16 PM EDT
Hey folks. Looking to buy a new BCG. I currently have an Ice Arms NIB BCG and am afraid its going to blow up based on all the flak Ice Arms has taken  (call me cautious).
SO, I'm looking at ToolCraft! Seemingly reputable and affordable. How do you think they compare to the other big brands (BCM, Colt, LMT, DD, etc.) or, probably more accurately, the other BCG manufacturers (Microbest, Youngs, etc.)? Problem I have, also, is that only two stores sell ToolCraft: Cryptic Coatings and WC Armory. Cryptic coatings sells the parkerized and NiB versions at a premium over WC Armory. But WC Armory doesn't offer the NiB with a C-158 bolt (I'd rather use the tried and true material) and the bolt is not HP tested  .
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I have 3 of the Nib coated and one non coated. I have right at 1100 rounds on one of the Nib and all four have been great.
Toolcraft is an OEM manufacture. That should say something about their quality. I bought 3 of mine from WC Armory, he's at my local gun shows. |
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Well, the Henderson defense guy only uses DD bcgs... I am partial to bcm and dd, but Toolcraft is gtg I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. |
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I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. Quoted:
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Well, the Henderson defense guy only uses DD bcgs... I am partial to bcm and dd, but Toolcraft is gtg I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. I would agree and WC sells the Tollcraft BCG with the Cage Code on them so I am guessing those are extras that the .mil did not pick up under one or more contracts. |
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I would agree and WC sells the Tollcraft BCG with the Cage Code on them so I am guessing those are extras that the .mil did not pick up under one or more contracts. Quoted:
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Well, the Henderson defense guy only uses DD bcgs... I am partial to bcm and dd, but Toolcraft is gtg I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. I would agree and WC sells the Tollcraft BCG with the Cage Code on them so I am guessing those are extras that the .mil did not pick up under one or more contracts. Having a Cage Code doesn't necessarily mean "Military Supplier" C Products had a Cage Code.
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Well, the Henderson defense guy only uses DD bcgs... I am partial to bcm and dd, but Toolcraft is gtg I understand partiality to BCM and DD based on reputation and very solid track records, but I'm always curious why neither of those companies provide comprehensive information about the actual materials used in all of the components that comprise a complete BCG. DD BCG (No info on metal used in any components) BCM BCG (Only bolt steel is divulged) Since this thread is about Toolcraft, let's look at the info on their complete BCG: Toolcraft BCG As I was comparing the BCGs above, I found another link where total information is given for the Umbrella Corp BCG: Umbrella BCG I am not a metallurgist but I sure like to know what is being used and where. I don't know which BCG is the best out of the above but as a consumer that wants to make the best buy possible for the longest lasting equipment to help stretch a thin budget, I appreciate lots of product information. While the cost is high, I'm intrigued by the no-nonsense approach to specification listing on the Umbrella BCG page linked earlier in my post. "This is exactly what we use and this is why/how we used it." Is there a thread that exists that covers these specifics? I would really enjoy learning more on this subject and determining where cost can be saved or where it's not worth it. |
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The Umbrella Corp page lists details of how the processes that are used to produce MIL-SPEC bolts, carriers and their parts are accomplished. This is not to say that they aren't great parts, only that the volume of data isn't a real indication that their parts are all that much better. They DO say they are all HP/MPI tested, which WCArmory's data doesn't explicitly include. For the CAGE code marked Toolcraft groups, I would hazard that they are in compliance with GI standards (including the HP/MPI testing) because you can see the bolt marking in the pictures on that site.
One point: Toolcraft makes BCGs to the specs their customers request. They list a bunch of options customers can specify, including complete BCG or stripped carrier, and so on. Having worked directly with Bill at WCArmory, I feel confident that he's getting the best parts available with those Toolcraft groups. |
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The Umbrella Corp page lists details of how the processes that are used to produce MIL-SPEC bolts, carriers and their parts are accomplished. They actually list more than the details/processes - they list the steel for every part of the BCG which seems unique to what others in the industry are doing. The Toolcraft BCG lists almost as much info too, which is great (ejector, springs, and FP retaining pin materials are the only items omitted). Again, the glaring difference is this: Umbrella list materials for bolt, extractor, extractor retaining pin, extractor spring, ejector, carrier, gas key, firing pin, firing pin retaining pin. vs. BCM: Bolt material listed. DD: no materials listed. I'm trying to understand why some of the big names aren't listing everything? Would listing all of the component materials give clues as to the true manufacturer? Would it decrease sales because apples to apples comparisons can be done which might reveal that some cheaper offerings utilize the same materials? I'm also looking for more information on steels used in these components. The Toolcraft uses different cam pin, firing pin, extractor, and gas key steels than the Umbrella. And Umbrella claims that all of their steels are "mil-spec". Are there different military specs that exist for these components? Or is Toolcraft choosing a superior/inferior steel for some of those components? I'm not stuck on every little component adhering to the applicable TDP but I am curious to know if deviations from those standards are true improvements or simply a cost cutting attempt. It's probably an overkill analysis, but then again, many on this forum take the time to verify barrel and receiver metals, why not research the guts thoroughly when the bolt and bolt carrier are integral to the functioning of an AR? *Edited for clarification* |
I agree with FSAL, transparency in the details of your product should be a requirement. It shows you are confident in your product and have nothing to hide. Unfortunately, big brands simply assume the name is all you need and they happen to be correct because everybody, when in doubt, buys from a brand name  . Big brands are not pressured to publish such information, and the less we know, the better off they are.
I don't think WCArmory ToolCraft BCGs are HP tested otherwise they would list it. It explicitly states MPI tested, but not HP tested. And I don't like that they only offer their Ni-Bo BCG with 9310 Steel bolts. |
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Quoted: Having a Cage Code doesn't necessarily mean "Military Supplier" C Products had a Cage Code. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Well, the Henderson defense guy only uses DD bcgs... I am partial to bcm and dd, but Toolcraft is gtg I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. I would agree and WC sells the Tollcraft BCG with the Cage Code on them so I am guessing those are extras that the .mil did not pick up under one or more contracts. Having a Cage Code doesn't necessarily mean "Military Supplier" C Products had a Cage Code. I have personally seen Toolcract replacement carriers in the SOTF armory. IIRC the cage code is 1B1B6. |
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I agree with FSAL, transparency in the details of your product should be a requirement. It shows you are confident in your product and have nothing to hide. Unfortunately, big brands simply assume the name is all you need and they happen to be correct because everybody, when in doubt, buys from a brand name . Big brands are not pressured to publish such information, and the less we know, the better off they are.
I don't think WCArmory ToolCraft BCGs are HP tested otherwise they would list it. It explicitly states MPI tested, but not HP tested. And I don't like that they only offer their Ni-Bo BCG with 9310 Steel bolts. You can buy a nickel boron 158 Toolcraft bolt separately from WCArmory, doesn't look like they're selling a complete BCG like that right now though. Piecing it together might be less expensive than a Fail Zero BCG, which I think is a Toolcraft w/158 bolt? Or you could pay even more and buy it from Cryptic Coatings. All the same product, just with different branding, it seems. |
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I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. Quoted:
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Well, the Henderson defense guy only uses DD bcgs... I am partial to bcm and dd, but Toolcraft is gtg I'd go way farther than that. Toolcraft MAKES their bolts and carriers, while BCM and DD do not (they have them made for them - maybe by Toolcraft?). Being the OEM puts Toolcraft a step above others that are not OEMs, at least in my mind. I'd go even farther than you, Toolcraft makes DD's and BCM's BCG's to dd's and bcm's specifications, and they then reject the ones that do not meet the specifications. Does toolcraft produce their bcg's to DD and BCM specifications? Being the OEM means nothing, really |
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Source? Quoted:
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I'd go even farther than you, Toolcraft makes DD's and BCM's BCG's to dd's and bcm's specifications, and they then reject the ones that do not meet the specifications. Source? For what? BCM rejecting out of spec parts? That is incredibly basic knowledge, and has been stated hundreds of times. Here is just one of many examples https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.facebook.com/pat.rogers.336/posts/742310559143422&ved=0CDAQFjAFahUKEwjZidblzfnHAhVFF5IKHRcyAjc&usg=AFQjCNHwbMtESd8tANp7-DBEnH313YYZ0g&sig2=5SW4mP0SjJ0KKafYD00Qrg |
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I believe he meant the part where you suggest this bit: Quoted:
I believe he meant the part where you suggest this bit: Quoted:
Toolcraft makes DD's and BCM's BCG's to dd's and bcm's specifications I was just referring to GHporters comment, i should have brought this up, but oh well BCM doesn't share their suppliers, and neither does DD, AFAIK |
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If you guys had to choose between WMD NiB-X BCG/FailZero EXO BCG or ToolCraft EXO BCG, which would you go with? You see, now you have an OEM BCG mfr with outsourced coating vs and an OEM BCG coater with outsourced BCG.  Why not just get a phoshpated bcg? |
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For what? BCM rejecting out of spec parts? That is incredibly basic knowledge, and has been stated hundreds of times. Here is just one of many examples https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.facebook.com/pat.rogers.336/posts/742310559143422&ved=0CDAQFjAFahUKEwjZidblzfnHAhVFF5IKHRcyAjc&usg=AFQjCNHwbMtESd8tANp7-DBEnH313YYZ0g&sig2=5SW4mP0SjJ0KKafYD00Qrg Quoted:
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I'd go even farther than you, Toolcraft makes DD's and BCM's BCG's to dd's and bcm's specifications, and they then reject the ones that do not meet the specifications. Source? For what? BCM rejecting out of spec parts? That is incredibly basic knowledge, and has been stated hundreds of times. Here is just one of many examples https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.facebook.com/pat.rogers.336/posts/742310559143422&ved=0CDAQFjAFahUKEwjZidblzfnHAhVFF5IKHRcyAjc&usg=AFQjCNHwbMtESd8tANp7-DBEnH313YYZ0g&sig2=5SW4mP0SjJ0KKafYD00Qrg Source for supplier/manufacturer. I'm familiar with the "incredibly basic knowledge" about their reputation for QC and parts rejection. I think you might mean "common" knowledge, however. I think reputation is important and I think BCM is a fine company, for the record. I'm just asking for more data so I can make informed decisions/purchases. |
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Way too much time and thought goes into "what BCG to buy".
OP, Toolcraft is GTG as well as many other manufactures/ resellers such as BCM, DD, AIM, PSA premium and etc... My recommendation is to just not buy from some unknown source like Ebay, fleemarket or some random at the gun show that will not share who's BCG it is. 99.9% of the people asking what BCG to buy are not "operators" or people that have to use their rifles on a regular basis in a tactical situation anyway. I think it is ridiculous for a company to charge $250 for a BCG but they do and people pay it so it's not going to change any time soon. I choose to buy the lower cost BCG's such as Toolcraft or AIM and they serve me just fine but I'm not jumping out of helicopters, swimming in the ocean, performing covert ops in the desert or jumping off rock cliffs with my rifle either so for me most any good BCG will work. I do put a decent amount of rounds down range and I have never had a good BCG fail or give me any problems for that matter. There are quite a few on here with 10K plus rounds on the original BCG's. Maybe find those threads and find out what BCG they use and how they maintain their rifle. Now, if you just want the "perceived best" there is, a specific popular name (like Nike or Reebok shoes) because all the cool kids have them or just want a fancy looking BCG, by all means buy what you want. I myself buy certain things for my rifles that I like or like the way they look and pay a premium for them even though a much cheaper item will do the same job. |
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Is too much time/thought being spent? I think that depends on the person. Some people go to great lengths to verify if their food is non-GMO, others spend a great deal of time to research and buy a vehicle with a specific level of performance for their budget and may NEVER use their car to 100% of its ability. I don't see how this is different. Consumers have the freedom to choose and going through this research process enables them to do so wisely. They don't have to jump out of helicopters to justify wanting data on their gun parts to confirm if they meet the consumer's desired quality level.
The OP wasn't looking for the perceived best - he was asking how one BCG compares to others. There seems to be a pretty large discrepancy concerning BCG info from vendor to vendor which is the only way to compare them without bias. Also, comparing in this manner tells you what you are getting for your money and then one can decided how much they want to spend. |
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Source for supplier/manufacturer. I'm familiar with the "incredibly basic knowledge" about their reputation for QC and parts rejection. I think you might mean "common" knowledge, however. I think reputation is important and I think BCM is a fine company, for the record. I'm just asking for more data so I can make informed decisions/purchases. Quoted:
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I'd go even farther than you, Toolcraft makes DD's and BCM's BCG's to dd's and bcm's specifications, and they then reject the ones that do not meet the specifications. Source? For what? BCM rejecting out of spec parts? That is incredibly basic knowledge, and has been stated hundreds of times. Here is just one of many examples https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.facebook.com/pat.rogers.336/posts/742310559143422&ved=0CDAQFjAFahUKEwjZidblzfnHAhVFF5IKHRcyAjc&usg=AFQjCNHwbMtESd8tANp7-DBEnH313YYZ0g&sig2=5SW4mP0SjJ0KKafYD00Qrg Source for supplier/manufacturer. I'm familiar with the "incredibly basic knowledge" about their reputation for QC and parts rejection. I think you might mean "common" knowledge, however. I think reputation is important and I think BCM is a fine company, for the record. I'm just asking for more data so I can make informed decisions/purchases. Mentioned above, i should have said that bcm and dd don't share thier suppliers, rather than simply repeat what GHporter said |
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Why not just get a phoshpated bcg? Quoted:
Why not just get a phoshpated bcg? I intend to shoot suppressed, so I would prefer an easily cleanable Ni-Bo BCG. Though it is not out of the question. Quoted:
Is too much time/thought being spent? I think that depends on the person. Some people go to great lengths to verify if their food is non-GMO, others spend a great deal of time to research and buy a vehicle with a specific level of performance for their budget and may NEVER use their car to 100% of its ability. I don't see how this is different. Consumers have the freedom to choose and going through this research process enables them to do so wisely. They don't have to jump out of helicopters to justify wanting data on their gun parts to confirm if they meet the consumer's desired quality level. The OP wasn't looking for the perceived best - he was asking how one BCG compares to others. There seems to be a pretty large discrepancy concerning BCG info from vendor to vendor which is the only way to compare them without bias. Also, comparing in this manner tells you what you are getting for your money and then one can decided how much they want to spend. Agreed. The reason I mentioned transparency earlier is because the AR15 industry (and other firearms related industries) apparently thinks its OK to just boast about improvements to tried and true parts (such as the classic and traditional phosphate BCG, rounded, with C158 bolt) and provide no technical details, data sheets, or testing results to backup their claims. They hardly even provide basic specs at times. Unlike the typical consumer (I imagine), I like to know exactly what I'm buying, even if I will never get the full use out of a product. As a consumer, I'd like to know the capabilities of my purchase. My only option, then, is to turn to the folks that may have experience with said products, in this case, the fine peoples of ARFCOM  and ask for their opinions. Even better if they can direct me towards facts.
Some people may think that dumb, why worry so much about the details of a product if your never going to use a product to its fullest extent. To those I say, your vehicle can probably drive well over a 100 mph. Will you be driving over a 100 mph often? No. Probably not... But its nice to know you can  .
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I intend to shoot suppressed, so I would prefer an easily cleanable Ni-Bo BCG. Though it is not out of the question. Agreed. The reason I mentioned transparency earlier is because the AR15 industry (and other firearms related industries) apparently thinks its OK to just boast about improvements to tried and true parts (such as the classic and traditional phosphate BCG, rounded, with C158 bolt) and provide no technical details, data sheets, or testing results to backup their claims. They hardly even provide basic specs at times. Unlike the typical consumer (I imagine), I like to know exactly what I'm buying, even if I will never get the full use out of a product. As a consumer, I'd like to know the capabilities of my purchase. My only option, then, is to turn to the folks that may have experience with said products, in this case, the fine peoples of ARFCOM and ask for their opinions. Even better if they can direct me towards facts.
Some people may think that dumb, why worry so much about the details of a product if your never going to use a product to its fullest extent. To those I say, your vehicle can probably drive well over a 100 mph. Will you be driving over a 100 mph often? No. Probably not... But its nice to know you can .
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Why not just get a phoshpated bcg? I intend to shoot suppressed, so I would prefer an easily cleanable Ni-Bo BCG. Though it is not out of the question. Quoted:
Is too much time/thought being spent? I think that depends on the person. Some people go to great lengths to verify if their food is non-GMO, others spend a great deal of time to research and buy a vehicle with a specific level of performance for their budget and may NEVER use their car to 100% of its ability. I don't see how this is different. Consumers have the freedom to choose and going through this research process enables them to do so wisely. They don't have to jump out of helicopters to justify wanting data on their gun parts to confirm if they meet the consumer's desired quality level. The OP wasn't looking for the perceived best - he was asking how one BCG compares to others. There seems to be a pretty large discrepancy concerning BCG info from vendor to vendor which is the only way to compare them without bias. Also, comparing in this manner tells you what you are getting for your money and then one can decided how much they want to spend. Agreed. The reason I mentioned transparency earlier is because the AR15 industry (and other firearms related industries) apparently thinks its OK to just boast about improvements to tried and true parts (such as the classic and traditional phosphate BCG, rounded, with C158 bolt) and provide no technical details, data sheets, or testing results to backup their claims. They hardly even provide basic specs at times. Unlike the typical consumer (I imagine), I like to know exactly what I'm buying, even if I will never get the full use out of a product. As a consumer, I'd like to know the capabilities of my purchase. My only option, then, is to turn to the folks that may have experience with said products, in this case, the fine peoples of ARFCOM and ask for their opinions. Even better if they can direct me towards facts.
Some people may think that dumb, why worry so much about the details of a product if your never going to use a product to its fullest extent. To those I say, your vehicle can probably drive well over a 100 mph. Will you be driving over a 100 mph often? No. Probably not... But its nice to know you can .
Really, the only claims that DD and BCM are making is that their BCG's meet milspec. I do wish they listed the materials/technical specifications of the entire BCG, but i honestly wouldn't sweat it, as long as the part is from a reputable vendor. Have you looked at the LMT enhanced bcg? |
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Toolcraft responded to a question I submitted through their web page. They said that ALL of their Carpenter 158 bolts are MPI tested, but not all are HP tested. They didn't specify if all of those bolts are marked MPI though.
To clarify, the "specifications" I was talking about were not basic things like dimensions and materials. I was talking about "we want C158 bolts, chrome lined carriers and we want this logo on the carrier". I cannot imagine a situation where a parts maker would be able to offer BCGs with MIL-SPEC bits/parts/pieces as well as with those bits made from other materials, or treated in some off-spec manner. It just doesn't make economic sense. |
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I have been doing business with Toolcraft for several years......through many case of carriers.......NEVER had an issue with one..........have with some other mfg's Side note: Have you ever bought Microbest carriers? I hear very good things about them, but like Toolcraft parts, the ultimate consumer usually has zero idea of who actually made them. |
| I'm running Toolcraft as well. And I'll just note that if you want to source from single company, if you buy from Cryptic Coatings, you are buying from Toolcraft. Cryptic Coatings is their sister company... They are not sent out for coating by a 3rd party like some others... |
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I'm running Toolcraft as well. And I'll just note that if you want to source from single company, if you buy from Cryptic Coatings, you are buying from Toolcraft. Cryptic Coatings is their sister company... They are not sent out for coating by a 3rd party like some others... From what I've read, Toolcraft makes carriers, so technically that wouldn't be sourcing from a single company as it doesn't seem that they manufacture bolts. If you look on their website, the only thing they actually talk about manufacturing is carriers. |
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Have you looked at the LMT enhanced bcg? Quoted:
Have you looked at the LMT enhanced bcg? Way too expensive. Also, with the exception of coatings and finishes, I am wary of any BCG designs that deviate from the traditional design (in terms of geometry and materials) without proof of superior reliability via testing and/or data. For this reason, I am annoyed that WCArmory offers the ToolCraft BCG only with a 9310 bolt. Still, I will not outright dismiss different designs, and will consider them based on anecdotal evidence.... which is relatively good for 9310 bolts (though there are opinions that 9310, while potentially stronger, will fatigue quicker than C158; but that's a whole other debate). Quoted:
Toolcraft responded to a question I submitted through their web page. They said that ALL of their Carpenter 158 bolts are MPI tested, but not all are HP tested. They didn't specify if all of those bolts are marked MPI though. To clarify, the "specifications" I was talking about were not basic things like dimensions and materials. I was talking about "we want C158 bolts, chrome lined carriers and we want this logo on the carrier". I cannot imagine a situation where a parts maker would be able to offer BCGs with MIL-SPEC bits/parts/pieces as well as with those bits made from other materials, or treated in some off-spec manner. It just doesn't make economic sense. I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. Anyway, I think your right, imo it would make sense that an OEM would mass produce BCG parts in different materials (to accurate specs) and then customize it for the retailers as you suggest, bolt material, logo, special engravings, etc., even surface finish and polishing (cheaper brands like AIM and SMI likely forgo the added cost of a nicely polished and finished BCG, hence the visible tool marks). But what do I know  ...
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As a bcg OEM, I was asked to offer comment to this thread. Consider this my tag until I have time to read all the comments later this afternoon. Good to know  .
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? |
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For this reason, I am annoyed that WCArmory offers the ToolCraft BCG only with a 9310 bolt. They have a few different options with the C158 bolts. Here is one of them: http://www.wcarmory.com/toolcraft-bcg-223-5-56-bolt-carrier-group-black-1b1b6-c-158-mpi-complete.htm |
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I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? Quoted:
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? That is a good observation, followed by a good question  .
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For this reason, I am annoyed that WCArmory offers the ToolCraft BCG only with a 9310 bolt. They have a few different options with the C158 bolts. Here is one of them: http://www.wcarmory.com/toolcraft-bcg-223-5-56-bolt-carrier-group-black-1b1b6-c-158-mpi-complete.htm I forgot to specify, I was looking at Ni-Bo since I intend to run suppressed and want an easy to clean BCG, especially since its only $20 more. You are correct though, they offer C158 for manganese phosphate bolts. |
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That is a good observation, followed by a good question .
I forgot to specify, I was looking at Ni-Bo since I intend to run suppressed and want an easy to clean BCG, especially since its only $20 more. You are correct though, they offer C158 for manganese phosphate bolts. Quoted:
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? That is a good observation, followed by a good question .
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For this reason, I am annoyed that WCArmory offers the ToolCraft BCG only with a 9310 bolt. They have a few different options with the C158 bolts. Here is one of them: http://www.wcarmory.com/toolcraft-bcg-223-5-56-bolt-carrier-group-black-1b1b6-c-158-mpi-complete.htm I forgot to specify, I was looking at Ni-Bo since I intend to run suppressed and want an easy to clean BCG, especially since its only $20 more. You are correct though, they offer C158 for manganese phosphate bolts. They offer Ni-Bo C-158: http://www.wcarmory.com/toolcraft-bolt-223-5-56-ni-bo-c-158-mpi.htm (out of stock but that page says availability is 5-7 business days) |
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I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? Quoted:
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? Colt manufactures their own bolts. |
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AO Precision is a big player in the manufacturing arena as well. Scroll down to the "commercial" heading and they list that they produce bolts, carriers, and other components as well as some of the companies that use their parts.
http://www.aopmfg.com/industries/firearms/ |
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Colt manufactures their own bolts. Quoted:
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? Colt manufactures their own bolts. I think FN does too, but the real question (what I meant to ask, anyway) is who else? Colt and FN don't make ALL of their own bolts and carriers, that's been shown numerous times. Who makes all the others? And who makes those 9130 bolts (and why?)? |
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I think FN does too, but the real question (what I meant to ask, anyway) is who else? Colt and FN don't make ALL of their own bolts and carriers, that's been shown numerous times. Who makes all the others? And who makes those 9130 bolts (and why?)? Quoted:
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? Colt manufactures their own bolts. I think FN does too, but the real question (what I meant to ask, anyway) is who else? Colt and FN don't make ALL of their own bolts and carriers, that's been shown numerous times. Who makes all the others? And who makes those 9130 bolts (and why?)? The link I just posted above you provides some info on a company that produces bolts for lots of people, and sends some types of parts (bolts included possibly?) to Colt and FN. From the website: "AO Precision supplies many of the most respected of the AR-15 rifle producers. These include Alexander Arms, Bulldog Barrels, Colt, Del-Ton, FN Manufacturing, DSA, Krieger Barrels, Lothar Walther, LaRue Tactical, LWRC, Noveske, O.F. Mossberg, Primary Weapons Systems, Rock River Arms, SIG Sauer, E.R. Shaw Barrels, Smith & Wesson, Wilson Arms and Wilson Combat. Our critical parts – bolts, carriers, barrel extensions and receivers – are considered the best available. We also have the ability to produce handgun parts, including frames and slides as well as bolt-action rifle receivers and bolts. When firearms manufacturers demand uncompromising quality and reliability, they turn to AO Precision." |
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The link I just posted above you provides some info on a company that produces bolts for lots of people, and sends some types of parts (bolts included possibly?) to Colt and FN. From the website: "AO Precision supplies many of the most respected of the AR-15 rifle producers. These include Alexander Arms, Bulldog Barrels, Colt, Del-Ton, FN Manufacturing, DSA, Krieger Barrels, Lothar Walther, LaRue Tactical, LWRC, Noveske, O.F. Mossberg, Primary Weapons Systems, Rock River Arms, SIG Sauer, E.R. Shaw Barrels, Smith & Wesson, Wilson Arms and Wilson Combat. Our critical parts – bolts, carriers, barrel extensions and receivers – are considered the best available. We also have the ability to produce handgun parts, including frames and slides as well as bolt-action rifle receivers and bolts. When firearms manufacturers demand uncompromising quality and reliability, they turn to AO Precision" Quoted:
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I believe the pictures in WCArmory show the bolt as MPI marked. I saw that, but WCArmory used the same picture for both the CAGE code-marked and unmarked parts, so I'm thinking it's generic picture. As others mentioned, Toolcraft makes the carriers, and sources bolts, so I would guess that unless it was supposed to be fully MIL-SPEC (the CAGE-marked parts), whether the bolt is marked MPI might depend on the source. Which leads to an interesting side question: who makes bolts? It looks like Microbest makes their own bolts, but who else does? Colt manufactures their own bolts. I think FN does too, but the real question (what I meant to ask, anyway) is who else? Colt and FN don't make ALL of their own bolts and carriers, that's been shown numerous times. Who makes all the others? And who makes those 9130 bolts (and why?)? The link I just posted above you provides some info on a company that produces bolts for lots of people, and sends some types of parts (bolts included possibly?) to Colt and FN. From the website: "AO Precision supplies many of the most respected of the AR-15 rifle producers. These include Alexander Arms, Bulldog Barrels, Colt, Del-Ton, FN Manufacturing, DSA, Krieger Barrels, Lothar Walther, LaRue Tactical, LWRC, Noveske, O.F. Mossberg, Primary Weapons Systems, Rock River Arms, SIG Sauer, E.R. Shaw Barrels, Smith & Wesson, Wilson Arms and Wilson Combat. Our critical parts – bolts, carriers, barrel extensions and receivers – are considered the best available. We also have the ability to produce handgun parts, including frames and slides as well as bolt-action rifle receivers and bolts. When firearms manufacturers demand uncompromising quality and reliability, they turn to AO Precision" Photos from Colt tour 
Looks like to me that Colt produces all of their major components, or I guess they could have just purchased those half a million dollar CNC's just for window dressing.
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Nice pictures. However, it's not unheard for companies, even those with manufacturing capability, to purchase components from trusted sources when they can't meet demand or have a supply issue.
ETA - I wasn't debating that Colt lacked manufacturing ability, I just pointed out that AO precision said they sell SOME parts to Colt. I don't know how many or when it happened/happens, but they list it on their site. |
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Nice pictures. However, it's not unheard for companies, even those with manufacturing capability, to purchase components from trusted sources when they can't meet demand or have a supply issue. Yeah, but Colt has tremendous mothballed manufacturing capacity,. They DID farm out production during the height of the Vietnam War. Harrington & Richardson and General Motors Hydramatic Division produced M-16A1's to supply the U.S. Military. The only issue they might have is not enough trained personnel. It's seems like every manufacturer wants to claim that manufacture parts for Colt. One thing to keep in mind, there was NO OTHER MANUFACTURER OF AR-15's (or M-16's) until the early eighties other than the two companies I listed above. |
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The link I just posted above you provides some info on a company that produces bolts for lots of people, and sends some types of parts (bolts included possibly?) to Colt and FN. You posted as I was typing, so I didn't see your link until later. A lot of companies use various sources for parts, including Colt and FN - even though they have an in-house capacity to make those parts. I've seen reports on these forums of people getting factory Colt guns that had FN bolts; clearly Colt wasn't able to completely satisfy their own demand at that point in time. Without derailing this thread even more, I've started a new thread about who makes bolts. |
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OP if it OK I will stick with Colt BCG > I've yet to find better Quoted:
Hey folks. Looking to buy a new BCG. I currently have an Ice Arms NIB BCG and am afraid its going to blow up based on all the flak Ice Arms has taken (call me cautious).
SO, I'm looking at ToolCraft! Seemingly reputable and affordable. How do you think they compare to the other big brands (BCM, Colt, LMT, DD, etc.) or, probably more accurately, the other BCG manufacturers (Microbest, Youngs, etc.)? Problem I have, also, is that only two stores sell ToolCraft: Cryptic Coatings and WC Armory. Cryptic coatings sells the parkerized and NiB versions at a premium over WC Armory. But WC Armory doesn't offer the NiB with a C-158 bolt (I'd rather use the tried and true material) and the bolt is not HP tested .
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Everyone knows Colt makes quality parts but how many years were Colt BCG's made before people could buy them easily from multiple sources?
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OP if it OK I will stick with Colt BCG > I've yet to find better Quoted:
OP if it OK I will stick with Colt BCG > I've yet to find better Quoted:
Hey folks. Looking to buy a new BCG. I currently have an Ice Arms NIB BCG and am afraid its going to blow up based on all the flak Ice Arms has taken (call me cautious).
SO, I'm looking at ToolCraft! Seemingly reputable and affordable. How do you think they compare to the other big brands (BCM, Colt, LMT, DD, etc.) or, probably more accurately, the other BCG manufacturers (Microbest, Youngs, etc.)? Problem I have, also, is that only two stores sell ToolCraft: Cryptic Coatings and WC Armory. Cryptic coatings sells the parkerized and NiB versions at a premium over WC Armory. But WC Armory doesn't offer the NiB with a C-158 bolt (I'd rather use the tried and true material) and the bolt is not HP tested .
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Quoted: As a bcg OEM, I was asked to offer comment to this thread. Consider this my tag until I have time to read all the comments later this afternoon. Not to burst anyone's balloon, but so long as you purchase a BCG from a well known seller that has a good reputation for honoring their warranty, I don't think you have anything to worry about. There are a lot of companies out their selling parts, some more scrupulous than others. Take what their marketing says about their product with a grain of salt. I see this threads pop up from time to time and a host of people commenting on what BCG's should be made of/coated with/etc and being in the BCG business myself, I just have to chuckle. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ToolCraft BCGs? (Page 1 of 2)
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