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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Model 1 sales (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 11/29/2009 2:45:24 PM EDT
| Have you guys heard of this company? Are thier uppers any good? |
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The last upper I got from them a few years ago had a 24" HBAR not bull and would shoot .75 with 50g VMAX all day long. A friend just got a 20" bull kit and other parts no range report yet but he is very hapy.
I helped him with the build and everything fit and looked great. |
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Have you guys heard of this company? Are thier uppers any good? Do a search on Model 1 it has a lot.of feed back . I have been watting on a AR15 A2 Rifle 24' HBAR barrel for over 7+ months. There are some that waited longer. Mike I usually just catch them at a gun show, get the goods instantly. |
| I built one with a friend(his first AR) and it was a great kit, good quality parts. They use ER Shaw barrels, well thought of everywhere except here, apparently. The have a HUGE backlog though, and they have some customer service issues, along with some apparent security issues with their Credit Card service. They also have a dedicated thread here Take the time to read it before you order from them. I never had an issue, and there are thousands of happy customers, but be informed. |
| I'm very happy with my M1S 20" OCMP build, quality seems good and it's accurate. That said, I ordered the upper in March and received in early November, and I had to cancel the CC used for the purchase due to fraudulent charges ( their CC processing company got hacked). |
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I got a 9mm upper from them. Was told it was built by RRA and darn if it isn't a twin to other RRA's I saw so I have no reason to doubt them. Also told they have uppers made by YHM.
I see them at gun shows and deal directly with the owners family. They have always been fair and honest with me. I couldn't say anything bad about them. I can not speak for others however. I will buy from them again. |
| I built a 16" carbine with their stainless barrel complete uppper and it works great. I have only shot a few hundred rounds thru it so far and zero feeding or other problems. Mine likes the PMC bronze ammo and will do 1" at 100 yards off sandbag with nikon 2x8 compact scope. I also got mine at a local gun show so no waiting. |
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I've seen two Model1 uppers, neither worked. Obviously that's a weird fluke but if you are serious about shooting Id' spend the money on a BCM or LMT upper and built whatever you want for a lower. Gee, all these AR's I have and NONE of them came from BCM or LMT. I guess I should dump them all! Odd that they all work perfectly day after day with zero problems. Hey, if it ain't a Harley it ain't a motorcycle, right? There are LOTS of good AR's out there. Don't think for a minute that if it didn't come from a few higher priced vendors it won't be any good. |
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I have a 24" Tactical kit. It was an A3 upper with an M4 barrel extension. It had some issues, but Pmags and good brass instead of steel and it ran great. Then I whipped out the Dremel and took 2 minutes and cut the ramps myself and now it feeds anything from any mag every time.
Glad I didn't just write it off as a rifle that "didn't work". Lol! It shoots 1 1/2" with PMC and sub moa with American Eagle 50gr. Personal best was a .675" 4 shot. ETA- Now its on a RRA lower that fits more snug and has the sweet 2 stage trigger, but I haven't had time to shoot it since it was over a DPMS suck... I mean stock trigger. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I've seen two Model1 uppers, neither worked. Obviously that's a weird fluke but if you are serious about shooting Id' spend the money on a BCM or LMT upper and built whatever you want for a lower. Gee, all these AR's I have and NONE of them came from BCM or LMT. I guess I should dump them all! Odd that they all work perfectly day after day with zero problems. Hey, if it ain't a Harley it ain't a motorcycle, right? There are LOTS of good AR's out there. Don't think for a minute that if it didn't come from a few higher priced vendors it won't be any good. The guy I saw with a model one in one of my classes at blackwater ended up borrowing someone else's rifle to finish the class. Sorry, I'll spend a couple of hundred dollars more and get something with better QC. Doesn't make sense to skimp in those circumstances. |
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IMHO it's like this with the lowest priced vendors. If you've never put an AR together or don't know much about being an armorer on the platform, you're better served from manufacturers that run a bit more. I've personally had a Model 1 upper that never should have been shipped like it was, to their credit they acknowledged the same and wanted to make it right. Overall I have seen issues with their QC. If you know the platform well, I haven't seen them ship anything you can't make good enough, but again if you don't have a lot of knowledge to work with, may not be tyour best bet.
I once did a review on here of a Blackthorne kit and documented all the issues it had. I fixed them all, that rifle still runs flawlessly today, but would not have done so if assembled out of the box. For the cost and having the knowledge to make it right it wasn't a bad deal. Just my .02 |
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"but again if you don't have a lot of knowledge to work with" 2FALable
That's the whole point. The key is the ablity to trouble shoot and understand the platform and be able to spot potential problems. My first trip out with my first upper, a M1S 16" HBAR, I had three FTF right out of the gate. marked the mag and went to the next mag with no problems. It was a steel H&K mag. Found that the lips were bent down causing the round to nose down. The bullet lined up with the ramp ok but the lip on the casing would catch on the sharp lip of the mag holding it up just long enough that the bolt would push the round side ways and jam. An adjustment to the mag lips, no more problem. As you prove a good shooter with smarts can make a peice of crap work. I read this forum and see guy after guy with $2k+ top tier guns that don't have a lick of sense! IMO if you can't put togather a reliable SHTF weapon for $900, I doubt a $3000 gold brick will do you much better! 
The funny part is a $3000 gun spends most of it's time in a gun safe or posing for the camera, where as a cheap K.I.S.S. M1S, DPMS or CMMG gets the crap shot out of it! As far a parts breaking, high price 1st tier brand name components are just as prone to breakage. Pivot keys, gas key screws, etc. And any upper receiver will blow out with a overly hot round or a spiib, yes even a Colt!
Funny how a simple funtional weapon became a rich guys "Barbie doll"! A Colt 20" HBAR M16A2 (upper), it doesn't get more KISS than that! For the record, without being a "Kool-aid kid", BCM is the current gold standard for affordable components. I can't wait to put one of their uppers to the test. |
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Quoted: I'd like to hear more about the Model 1 uppers that "didn't work". Waddya mean they didn't work? No bullets came out the end? They failed to cycle? They didn't fit on a lower? What? The one kitI assembled was outstanding and functioned flawlessly..... "the one kit you assembled" Exactly... Functioned flawlessly for how many rounds? I have seen out of spec parts, broken parts, bent parts, oversize gas ports, tight chambers, and more from M1S. |
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Quoted: The funny part is a $3000 gun spends most of it's time in a gun safe or posing for the camera, where as a cheap K.I.S.S. M1S, DPMS or CMMG gets the crap shot out of it! As far a parts breaking, high price 1st tier brand name components are just as prone to breakage. Pivot keys, gas key screws, etc. And any upper receiver will blow out with a overly hot round or a spiib, yes even a Colt!A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber? You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc. Attend a carbine course and count the kit guns working on day 3. Chances are there will only be 1 or 2 out of 20 to begin with anyway. Why? Because people with enough sense to get training and maintain that level of training generally graviate towards quality weapons. |
Okay 87 gn, specific examples please. I am citing a model 1 sales 16" stainless heavy 1-9 barrel carbine kit with a chrome BCG, flat top, railed gas block, assembled on a Tactical Machine lower. On p-mags it went bang bang bang out the gate with no fails, and continues to run flawlessly. Don't know the round count cause it ain't mine. It was built for casual range range shooting and plinking and currently wears an eotech. It also is on stand by for rogue pit bull repellent on a horse farm after they pulled down and killed a mini show horse. It serves it's purpose well, was assembled for a little over a grand including the eotech. Hard to beat. Not everyone is a secret commando burning thousands of round of ammo a month. Personally, I don't have the time or money. I don't see a carbine course in my future, or my friends. I took a course back in '73 from a WWII Combat Marine who fought Guadalcanal, the Solomens, Iwo Jima and Okinawa . And another one from some Vietnam Combat vets back in '79 at Benning. And from some Rangers at JOTC Panama in '84. I'm gtg on combat courses and a pretty experienced judge of a weapons combat reddiness. If you do some digging, it turns out that theres a relatively small group of manufacurers of uppers, lowers, barrels, LPKs and BCGs. Most of the rifle companies purchase from these suppliers, add a roll mark, and assemble the rifle. Colt and maybe a few others roll their own. Argue all you want, but wilson and ER shaw supply barrels to a bunch of manufacturers, LMT split off from Eagle Arms which became ARmalite, and so on. Model 1 buys from these same vendors and assembles rifles. Do some of them turn out crappy? No doubt. But the also turn out thousands of excellent rifles and have thousands of satisfied customers. For people like me and my friend, who enjoy a day at the range plinking, Model 1 is a fine choice. I also have an ARmalite with a WOA barrel that causes me to spend time at the loading bench trying to improve myself. You probably wouldn't like it eithersince it's not TACTICOOL.........So tell me every instance of a Model 1 failure that you have personally witnessed, explain what part failed and why, and what the outcome was. I grow tired of the MIGHTY WIND....
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Model 1 Sales buys barrel BLANKS from Shaw and Wilson. They ream the chamber, attach the barrel extension (setting headspace), and drill the gas port. Much can go wrong there. You might not have the time or money for a carbine course, but that doesn't change the fact that putting yourself and your rifle through one will be an educational experience. Not you, of course...you're too high and mighty to bring yourself down to the level of the "tacticool commando". Never mind the fact that over 50% of the course attendees I've seen, outside the stuff that the military put me through, were active military or LE. They must think that having weapons training more recent than when Mondale ran for president is beneficial... but what do they know? Thanks for the tip on digging to find out what parts manufacturers use, I'll be sure to look into that. It's not like I've owned rifles or parts from practically every major manufacturer in the business, and put tens of thousands of rounds through ARs since leaving the military. Here's a bent M1S charging handle, this bent before I ever put a round through the rifle.  As I said, I had out of spec parts (bolt catches that wouldn't fit/function), bent parts (see above), stuck cases and popped primers (due to out of spec chambers), broken parts (stocks broken during malfunction clearance as a result of tight chambers), and oversize gas ports (over .15" when the standard for a 16" carbine length rifle is .062-.07" or so). Model 1 buys and/or makes the cheapest parts they possibly. There are better parts and better rifles out there. Your whining and moaning will not change this. I know because I have owned 5 and every one was disappointing. I'd rather spend $850 instead of $550. If I only had $550 to spend and didn't care about learning how it worked, I'd buy an AK or an SKS. |
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"A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber?" 87GN
Most kaboom's I've seen documented were ammo related, either a bad out of spec reload or a extreme hot load. A tight chamber would be detected quite quickly. And let's see who put's out the most 5.56mm chambered guns? Colt? FN? who would have thought! And oh by the way my M1S, Cmmg and DPMS are all chambered for 5.56mm. "You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc." 87GN Had I made the comment that M1S/DPMS were shot more than "stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc", your rush to make me out to be a liar would have been warrented. However I never made such a claim. And since when did a Colt, BCM or LMT rifles ever list for $2k+? I would dare say that Colt, Bushmaster, RRA sells far more units per year than does M1S. Technically a BCM or an LMT upper matched to who's ever lower receiver is a "kit" gun! And can be Kit bashed for less than $1k. I would love to take one of my "kit" bashed guns with a back up FN BCG to a three day outing, unfortunatly a recent stroke has left me insuffient stamina to enjoy such easy fun. I would just love pushing an AR to the limit! Talking about "gravitating" to rediculously high priced "quality" weapons, I guess all law enforcement acgencies will be re-equiping with Noveske, KAC and Les Baer, and discarding their RRA's, Bushmaster's and other budget friendly weapons.
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Quoted: "A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber?" 87GN Most kaboom's I've seen documented were ammo related, either a bad out of spec reload or a extreme hot load. A tight chamber would be detected quite quickly. And let's see who put's out the most 5.56mm chambered guns? Colt? FN? who would have thought! And oh by the way my M1S, Cmmg and DPMS are all chambered for 5.56mm. "You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc." 87GN Had I made the comment that M1S/DPMS were shot more than "stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc", your rush to make me out to be a liar would have been warrented. However I never made such a claim. And since when did a Colt, BCM or LMT rifles ever list for $2k+? I would dare say that Colt, Bushmaster, RRA sells far more units per year than does M1S. Technically a BCM or an LMT upper matched to who's ever lower receiver is a "kit" gun! And can be Kit bashed for less than $1k. I would love to take one of my "kit" bashed guns with a back up FN BCG to a three day outing, unfortunatly a recent stroke has left me insuffient stamina to enjoy such easy fun. I would just love pushing an AR to the limit! Talking about "gravitating" to rediculously high priced "quality" weapons, I guess all law enforcement acgencies will be re-equiping with Noveske, KAC and Les Baer, and discarding their RRA's, Bushmaster's and other budget friendly weapons. Kit guns - this seemed obvious to me, but apparently not to you - come as a kit, everything except the lower receiver. BCM and LMT do not sell kits. If they did, I would make an exception for them. DPMS and M1S claim that they put out 5.56 chambers, the 5.56 reamer I saw disappear into examples of both begs to differ. I've even had a Sabre with a tight chamber. Bushmasters too. Ask an armorer for a PMC that bought Bushmasters thinks of them. Take a quality AR ($1000) add a top end rail ($250) and an Aimpoint and mount ($600) and BUIS ($120) and a Surefire in a good mount ($150-300) and you have the $2000+ "safe queens" that folks such as yourself love to lambast. Funny thing though, I see plenty of those rifles at carbine courses, getting the snot beat out of them. Sorry to hear about your medical problems. My dad just got home from the hospital after open heart surgery. It is strange to see someone you remember as being strong and full of life moving about like a snail. |
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The funny part is a $3000 gun spends most of it's time in a gun safe or posing for the camera, where as a cheap K.I.S.S. M1S, DPMS or CMMG gets the crap shot out of it! As far a parts breaking, high price 1st tier brand name components are just as prone to breakage. Pivot keys, gas key screws, etc. And any upper receiver will blow out with a overly hot round or a spiib, yes even a Colt!
A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber? You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc. Attend a carbine course and count the kit guns working on day 3. Chances are there will only be 1 or 2 out of 20 to begin with anyway. Why? Because people with enough sense to get training and maintain that level of training generally graviate towards quality weapons. so let me get this straight.... kit guns are junk, so you should only buy expensive "quality" factory built ARs? 
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"Take a quality AR ($1000) add a top end rail ($250) and an Aimpoint and mount ($600) and BUIS ($120) and a Surefire in a good mount ($150-300) and you have the $2000+ "safe queens" that folks such as yourself love to lambast."
Sorry 87, we were talking about stock basic rifles out of the box, not a tricked up "Barbie" doll "! I'm afraid I prefer "M1A1" KISS. I can see having $2k into a pristine M-21 (M-14) sniper rifle, but not a basic AR-15. Yes I know just what your dad is experiencing, I had triple bypass surgery in 2002. But by GOD I'm still gonna fire my weapon as long as I can stand up! When I refer to a "kit bashed" rifle, I am referring to building up a lower from parts selected from different manufacturers to one's own preference and adding whatever upper you wind up deciding on. My M1S swaps out without a problem. Personally I don't buy any uppers or lowers sight unseen. I inspect them before I buy them. Except, cringe, maybe a BCM, I will be taking the chance soon. In what is typically a "kit" gun, a suppler has provided you with parts he has packaged, often what we both would agree are substandard. I stay away form these "kits". One of my favorite "kit bashed" rifles is a Hughes Precision Stripped lower (made in Indian River Michigan), a DPMS LPK (oh well) and a Remington woodland camo A2 stock, topped with a Colt 20" HBAR M16A2 upper with Colt F/A BCG. Goofy , but I like it! As your statement indicates that chamber's being out of spec is not exclusive to M1S or DPMS. I've heard the claim made about many major manufacturers. It may be the fallout of the mania chrunch, where QC suffered. The ARFCOM forums are full of people sending their rifles back to the manufacturers due to QC issues. Just so you don't think I'm just a wahoo, I would know enough not to take a weapon to a 3 day class without being totally familar with it and comfortable with it's reliablity. Not to mention a reliable backup and a spare BCG (FN). For what it's worth 
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I have a 20" stainless varmint that has a weird problem, but changing mag seemed to correct it. Truthfully, I haven't put much time into it. Too many guns taken to the range whenever my son and I go.
It would fire a single round, eject, feed again, but not bang on the second shot. It appeared the bolt was closed, but maybe it was just short. Swapped from 30 rd to 20 rd mag and no problems. I'm guessing my other 30 rd mag is fine, but haven't had the time to try. I started my day at the range with 1 bullet in the mag as a function test, that mag had problems feeding a single bullet in the mag. I haven't condemmed the upper yet. As far as accuracy, not sure since I haven't really put enough rounds through it  . That problem mentioned put the brakes on barrel break in that morning.  My wife makes sure I don't get an abundance of range time, especially for a weapon she doesn't know about  .
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Quoted: so let me get this straight.... kit guns are junk, so you should only buy expensive "quality" factory built ARs? In my experience, they (kit guns) are a complete waste of time and/or money in the long run. If I was a hobby shooter, and absolutely intent on staying that way, I'd grab a S&W for $750, or a Stag in the same price range. Or get a BCM/Spikes upper and BCG, put them on a decent lower, and be done with it for $850-950 or so. But if I, personally, could start all over from the day I got back from Iraq, I would just buy a Colt and be done with it (BCM and Spikes uppers weren't available at the time). I wouldn't have wasted tens of thousands of dollars slowly working my way up from kit rifles, to DPMS/RRA/Bushmaster type rifles, to Colt/BCM/Spikes CHF, where I am today. Quoted: "Take a quality AR ($1000) add a top end rail ($250) and an Aimpoint and mount ($600) and BUIS ($120) and a Surefire in a good mount ($150-300) and you have the $2000+ "safe queens" that folks such as yourself love to lambast." Sorry 87, we were talking about stock basic rifles out of the box, not a tricked up "Barbie" doll "! I'm afraid I prefer "M1A1" KISS. I can see having $2k into a pristine M-21 (M-14) sniper rifle, but not a basic AR-15. When I refer to a "kit bashed" rifle, I am referring to building up a lower from parts selected from different manufacturers to one's own preference and adding whatever upper you wind up deciding on. My M1S swaps out without a problem. Personally I don't buy any uppers or lowers sight unseen. I inspect them before I buy them. Except, cringe, maybe a BCM, I will be taking the chance soon. In what is typically a "kit" gun, a suppler has provided you with parts he has packaged, often what we both would agree are substandard. I stay away form these "kits". One of my favorite "kit bashed" rifles is a Hughes Precision Stripped lower (made in Indian River Michigan), a DPMS LPK (oh well) and a Remington woodland camo A2 stock, topped with a Colt 20" HBAR M16A2 upper with Colt F/A BCG. Goofy , but I like it! As your statement indicates that chamber's being out of spec is not exclusive to M1S or DPMS. I've heard the claim made about many major manufacturers. It may be the fallout of the mania chrunch, where QC suffered. The ARFCOM forums are full of people sending their rifles back to the manufacturers due to QC issues. Certainly not. But as I said, seek out folks who've had to maintain them on an operational level - they have a pretty good idea of what constitutes a 5.56 chamber, and they've seen enough reamers come out of barrels with plenty of material on them to know that the company consistently has a problem putting out properly made barrels. As for people buying stuff during the last year, I challenge you to find a single functional issue with a complete BCM upper. As I said, a kit is a kit. It is not a BCM upper and a BCM (or other) lower put together. You might want to read an article I wrote on my blog in October. By the way, I just broke another DPMS trigger pin last month. I think I've finally exorcised my old stock, from the days when I thought all parts were made equal. I had no idea what you were referring to when you said "$3000 safe queens." Most commonly, people call properly fitted out carbines safe queens. Whether people can afford, or want, or like, or whatever, these weapons does not change the fact that a carbine with a light, an RDS, and a sling is about as ideal as you can get for self defense. KISS sounds good on paper or at a square range in the middle of the day, with no one shooting back at you, but I challenge you to find anyone who has experience fighting a modern war who does not use those three items on their personal, duty, or issued weapon religiously. |
| The price of assembled rifles has dropped so low that kit guns aren't going to save much cash, but I don't think they are junk at all. Its nice to get parts in the mail slowly instead of a big credit card bill for your wife to open. If I was to take my M1S toy to a course, I'd swap the gas key and stake it properly. I'd also swap the bolt and cam pin and use the M1S parts for spares, and possibly take another LPK with to be safe. I'd also take it out a put a bunch of rounds through it to insure its function is 100% and carefully re inspect the weapon for anything unusual. If you box gun freaks would do this, you might not look like an idiot when your (insert name brand) rifle goes down and you can't figure out why. Know your weapon, know your parts, and inspect it often no mater what it is! |
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4 years ago a kit gun was a good deal, but the prices on kits have gotten so high that you aren't saving the money like you could back then. I mean the only reason I can see to bother with a build (other than maybe one to learn more about the rifle) is to save the excise tax. Well nowadays it seems like it costs more to buy a box of parts than it does to pay someone else to build the rifle and pay the excise tax on top of it all.
Personally I would just buy a Colt in this market, but if I were going to build it would be a BCM upper on a decent lower. The brand of lower is not that important other than the LPK you use in it. Too many stories of broken trigger and hammer pins with the cheap stuff. I disagree that the "mid-range" guns like S&W, etc are not suitable for anything but hobby shooting but that's probably another thread. Ditto the assertion that a person must spend thousands on training to be a responsible carbine owner. I notice a LOT of the folks making such claims make a living from um... gee... TRAINING COURSES??? Not all of us are 22 year old mall ninjas. Bottom line, do your research and make your own decisions based on your own wants and needs. Personally I would say NOT to buy from M1S if you want my opinion. The CC fraud thing scares me, and their prices are no longer the bargains they once were. |
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Quoted: I disagree that the "mid-range" guns like S&W, etc are not suitable for anything but hobby shooting but that's probably another thread. Ditto the assertion that a person must spend thousands on training to be a responsible carbine owner. I notice a LOT of the folks making such claims make a living from um... gee... TRAINING COURSES??? Not all of us are 22 year old mall ninjas. Do not take "hobby shooting" as an insult...They are likely GTG for patrol rifle duty as well...but for another $100 you can get a better rifle...To me, the extra $100 is worth it if my ass is on the line. Not many ways to find out just how much you know or don't know about working a carbine, that is, how you stack up against others. You don't have to spend a fortune, a 1 day $100-150 course will be money well spent...Or you could attend carbine matches, but you might learn the wrong stuff there if you don't know a lot about the subject, and might have to "unlearn" it later. Frankly if you have the attitude that you don't need to go to a carbine course, you probably shouldn't go. The instructor will not appreciate it. I have been in classes with world class shooters (who were students), they did not bring any attitude and were willing to learn, and guess what, they did. I don't make any money from carbine courses and I won't get any discounts from any instructors for telling people to go to carbine courses. I will not sleep better at night knowing that you did or did not go. I am just here to give my opinion that if you want to learn how to use an AR, go to a carbine course. I thought I was the best driver in the world when I was a teenager, then I went to Bondurant, I learned how much I did not know. |
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A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber? You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc. Attend a carbine course and count the kit guns working on day 3. Chances are there will only be 1 or 2 out of 20 to begin with anyway. Why? Because people with enough sense to get training and maintain that level of training generally graviate towards quality weapons. Just my two cents, but over any course of fire, with any weapon or weapon system you’re going to have malfunctions, this includes the m16-Ar15 family. Even in the Marine Corps, I can only remember a few range sessions wear a weapon didn’t malfunction (Jam being any stop in the cycle of operation and a malfunction being a break of a part that stops the weapon from operating properly). With that, I think the reason why everyone rages about FN and Colt being so great, is because of their reliability seen throughout the military. However anyone familiar with the military knows that every time a weapon is returned to the Armory, it goes through a maintenance cycle where parts are replaced, and inspections are done by qualified armors; not Joe Blow “operator.” With that, Colt and FN are the suppliers for the government because there THE LOWEST BIDDER. I remember checking out an M16 and the selector switch, fell out on to my foot as soon as the guy handed it to me. So it really depends who does the maintenance, both periodical and scheduled. I have Marines that have trouble learning the maintenance needs of the M16, let alone the “operator” at a 3 day carbine course. So perhaps a carbine course is not a good place for comparison? With that said, I have a M1S rifle that I bought as a kit about 7 years ago, the only problems I've had was the lower parts kit was a little out of spec but functioned until I replaced it with another one. Also the chrome bolt carrier is out of spec; so that when you pull the charging handle the latch gouges the upper. After all the shooting it’s been through, I can honestly say I can’t remember the last time it jammed and the only malfunction I had, was from firing some reloads that my old man had made in the 70’s; that where in his words, “hot.” Part of my gas ring came off and logged into the charging handle area, and had to be removed. However I did shoot another 20 rounds through it before I realized the gas ring was broke. So I guess I can’t complain, seeing how the whole rifle including lower cost maybe 500 bucks. Good Luck, and just remember that no matter if the AR cost 2000 dollars or 500, the bullet still has the same FPE out of the barrel. |
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I cannot think of a range session where we had a single malfunction or stoppage, once we got good mags. And we had 26 M4s and we put several thousand rounds through them per range session. How much shooting does the Wing do, anyway? You highly overestimate the capabilities of the entry level armorer; they don't do a whole lot more than making sure everything is scraped clean and accounted for, and replacing very minor stuff that breaks. The company or even regimental armorer has no tools with which to do anything so simple as a barrel swap. All of that is done at the depot level, IIRC. Colt and FN are suppliers because they MET A CERTAIN STANDARD; cost came second to that. Model 1 could probably undercut Colt, but you don't see Model 1 Sales M4s in service, do you? Since you have obviously never been to a carbine course, I suggest you hold your tongue. The EMP/Gunfighter program that was a precursor to the "carbine course style" tables that are now a part of USMC marksmanship. It was designed and initially taught by Pat Rogers, who you can take a course from as "joe blow operator". In such a 3 day course, you will learn far more about the weapon and how to operate it than in all the training the military has given you up to that point. I know because we went through that program before deploying, and it turned me on my head knowledge-wise. Yes, yes, everything will eventually fail. But unless you have a point of reference as to WHEN that something will fail, speculating is pointless, isn't it? I mean, comparing a 20 year old A2 that's seen a million rounds of slow fire and wouldn't be issued to a deploying Marine at this stage in the game to a brand new weapon is illogical, to say the least. |
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I disagree that the "mid-range" guns like S&W, etc are not suitable for anything but hobby shooting but that's probably another thread. Ditto the assertion that a person must spend thousands on training to be a responsible carbine owner. I notice a LOT of the folks making such claims make a living from um... gee... TRAINING COURSES??? Not all of us are 22 year old mall ninjas. Do not take "hobby shooting" as an insult...They are likely GTG for patrol rifle duty as well...but for another $100 you can get a better rifle...To me, the extra $100 is worth it if my ass is on the line. Not many ways to find out just how much you know or don't know about working a carbine, that is, how you stack up against others. You don't have to spend a fortune, a 1 day $100-150 course will be money well spent...Or you could attend carbine matches, but you might learn the wrong stuff there if you don't know a lot about the subject, and might have to "unlearn" it later. Frankly if you have the attitude that you don't need to go to a carbine course, you probably shouldn't go. The instructor will not appreciate it. I have been in classes with world class shooters (who were students), they did not bring any attitude and were willing to learn, and guess what, they did. I don't make any money from carbine courses and I won't get any discounts from any instructors for telling people to go to carbine courses. I will not sleep better at night knowing that you did or did not go. I am just here to give my opinion that if you want to learn how to use an AR, go to a carbine course. I thought I was the best driver in the world when I was a teenager, then I went to Bondurant, I learned how much I did not know. I agree with you on pretty much everything you wrote in here. I am currently planning to do a BCM build as funds allow. As far as training, I was actually referring to another member who is very vocal about the need for training and will get very nasty about it if anyone questions his statements in regards to it. I don't foresee ever using a carbine except as perhaps a self-defense weapon, but I do enjoy the hell out of all sorts of shooting disciplines, and I think anything you learn has value, even if you never use the knowledge as it was intended. I am a USMC veteran and MN farm boy so I think I'm pretty gtg with carbines, but I would personally enjoy taking a carbine course if I could find one nearby. As far as the average joe shooter though, I would recommend at the very least that they go shooting with an experienced AR owner a few times if they've had no other exposure to the platform. I had to train a few of my buddies over the past few years after I was done infecting them with BRD. |
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87 gn
you seem to be very focused, but you are overlooking a lot of peoples points...a lot of us are just out for a casual afternoon of shooting. Could a carbine course make us better shooters? Certainly. But I don't anticipate any need for fire and maneuver in my future, and if I can squeeze $150 out of my meager shooting budget, I'll probably spend it on gun parts or ammo. my " operator" days are far in the past. These days I'm happy to get a few peaceful hours at the range away from my children and a demanding princess of a wife. All I'm looking for is shooting in my latest pitiful reload attempts for accuracy and busting some balloons and ringing the gong at the 300 yd line. I carry to protect my family and have invested in my handgun to make it the best tool possible, for me, for its purpose. I practice with it religiously and relentlessly. Any balloon that attacks me from the 7 yd line is DEAD MEAT! . The point is; for me and guys like me, who just do some casual plinking on a tight budget, Model 1 sales kits are fine. A failure for me means I have to go home now, nothing else. Never had one, but that's what I'd do. Not everyone is you, not everyone has your needs, and not everyone needs a $2000 AR. You should lighten up a little and try to broaden your horizens a little.
For the life of me, I can't understand why you are posting in the "BUILD IT YOURSELF" forum, since you seem to vehemently oppose anyone building their own rifle. If you don't like it, just go your way and leave us to ours. Finally, thanks for your service, if you're still active I wish you well in your deployments. May you send many to meet ALLAH. And another thing: STOP DISRESPECTING YOUR ELDERS! 
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I have never bought a complete AR. I have built all of my rifles. I don't get spending 80% of the money for 50% of the rifle, but if it floats your boat, fine. Age has nothing to do with it; people who act like their M1S rifle will never fail under any conditions and are "just as good as" everything else out there are doing unsuspecting buyers a disservice. If you're 75 and spouting misinformation, I will call you on it. |
| Musta missed the part about lightening up huh? So what disinformation did you call me out on? The one kit I helped assembeld did , in fact function flawlessly, and still does...The OP, who has long since abandoned this pissing match, asked if any one had experience with Model one and what they thought. I gave him my experience, as did a lot of other happy customers. I never said they were"just as good as anything else".. |
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Wow! Did this thread go completely off topic or what? I don't recall the OP asking about a carbine class. Take a breath 87GN.
To the OP - I've built quite a few ARs using M1S parts. The only time that I can remember having a problem was one upper that wouldn't pin into an Eagle Arms lower correctly. A minute with a Dremel took care of that. I have not had any parts break yet and I have 2 of their kits with round counts well into the 2K range. I know this really isn't a lot but I would have expected something to break by now if these kits were as junk as others would believe. ER Shaw barrels are good to go as well. The p'dogs of SD absolutely hate my M1S .204 upper as well as my 16" fat barreled .223. Your mileage may vary but I'll keep buying M1S parts as needed and leave the high dollar stuff to guys who's egos demand it. 
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I have a 7.5in barrel and a Pistol buffer kit from M1S, at the time they were the only option... (right after the ban sunset).
I have had 0 issues with the barrel and buffer setup, but I replaced the spring and the buffer... The buffer was lighter than a standard carbine buffer, and the spring was a little weak, but it never caused any issues with function. I did not use their upper because they cannot say who makes them... same with the LPK, and BCG. A friend of mine got a J&T parts kit, it was not bad, all went together well, the upper seemed to be put together good enough. Only issue I had with it was the LPK, it seemed to be a DPMS generic bag, the roll pins were a nightmare... I hate DPMS's Idea of what a roll pin should be...
I tried to help him select parts by name brand, but he wanted no part of that...
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Quoted:
A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber? You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc. Attend a carbine course and count the kit guns working on day 3. Chances are there will only be 1 or 2 out of 20 to begin with anyway. Why? Because people with enough sense to get training and maintain that level of training generally graviate towards quality weapons. Or it could be that those who can afford to pay to have professional run and gun training that they simply want and don't need, have a check writers mentality. Its also possible they haven't the time, patience, or mechanical ability to assemble and tune a weapon to make it run as well an out of the box rifle. There are a handful of M1S components I wouldn't trust my life with (gas key, bolt, cam pin), but I've never had them fail either. |
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Quoted: Musta missed the part about lightening up huh? So what disinformation did you call me out on? The one kit I helped assembeld did , in fact function flawlessly, and still does...The OP, who has long since abandoned this pissing match, asked if any one had experience with Model one and what they thought. I gave him my experience, as did a lot of other happy customers. I never said they were"just as good as anything else".. Not you, specifically, a general "you". Quoted: Quoted: A tight/out of spec chamber will cause more KB problems than a 5.56 chamber. Guess which company is more likely to put out a 5.56 chamber? You are 100% wrong about M1S/DPMS carbines being shot more than stuff like Colt, BCM, LMT, etc etc etc. Attend a carbine course and count the kit guns working on day 3. Chances are there will only be 1 or 2 out of 20 to begin with anyway. Why? Because people with enough sense to get training and maintain that level of training generally graviate towards quality weapons. Or it could be that those who can afford to pay to have professional run and gun training that they simply want and don't need, have a check writers mentality. Its also possible they haven't the time, patience, or mechanical ability to assemble and tune a weapon to make it run as well an out of the box rifle. There are a handful of M1S components I wouldn't trust my life with (gas key, bolt, cam pin), but I've never had them fail either. Not having the mechanical ability to deal with problems is a different thing entirely than trying to avoid them in the first place. Like I said, I've built a few ARs...have never once bought a complete one. I have a full set of tools and a good idea of how the system works and how to troubleshoot and fix problems. That doesn't mean that I seek out parts that will require me to use those skills or tools. Mr. Sullivan, Mr. Caputo and Mr. Elmore have forgotten more about AR stuff than I will ever learn, but I don't see them building rifles with bottom end parts just so they can troubleshoot for the heck of it either... It would be a more wise use of that mechanical ability, in my opinion, to buy the parts that don't require "tuning", than to try to fix them later. |
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I think their barreled uppers are OK. I would still double check anything I got from them. However, if you're on a budget, you can do better. I picked up a Dez Arms A1 profile 16" barrel for $110 at the SAR show. It'll be my dedicated 22 upper, but I can still shoot 5.56 through it in a pinch. I have less than $500 in the complete rifle. I am not anti-budget rifle, anti-people that don't wear Multicam 24/7* or anti-people that don't care what I think. I am anti-crappy parts and hate to see people buy crappy parts when they need good parts, so I interject my 2 cents. *I don't own any Muticam. Wait, I take that back. I have a blood type patch in Multicam, everything else was out of stock. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Model 1 sales (Page 1 of 2)
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