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Posted: 11/1/2008 10:00:21 AM EDT
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OK so I have my AR 15. I bought a DPMS lower and then put on a Smith and Wesson M&P 15 upper chambered in 5.45x39.
I took it to the range the last two days and ran a couple hundered rounds thru it. The first 100 had 5 fail to fire rounds, I put in the stronger hammer spring that came with the upper and the second 100 fired with out issue. I am using bulgarian army surplus ammo and shooting off of sandbags with a inexpesive 4 power scope I am grouping around a spread of 2 to 3 inches. I figure any flyer in the pattern is my fault not the guns. Is that good or bad? Lee |
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Most rifles, out of the box, can group into 1 or 2 MOA with factory ammo. If you're shooting a bigger group than that, it's probably your fault, seriously.
Ditch the bench, scope, and sandbags, and learn to shoot sling-supported from prone! If you haven't yet done it, go attend a two-day Appleseed shoot and learn to be a Rifleman! Just kidding - sorta. But remember, you can only shoot as good as you can hold. And sometimes, I find you're better off with iron sights. If you use a scope, but you can't hold on target, you tend to get into the habit of snatching the trigger as your cross-hairs swing across the target. Snatching the shot always throws you off. Heck, you should be able to use irons out to 300 yards or so, anyway! Seriously, attend an Appleseed shoot! I just spent two days at Knob Creek Range, fired close to 500 rounds, and saw a MAJOR improvement in my shooting. And most of their shoots are built around a .22 LR semi-auto rifle, like a 10/22, so you won't break the bank on ammo. It cost $80.00 to sign up for the shoot, plus a $16.00 range fee to the Knob Creek folks. But I bet you I got just as good or better instruction and more trigger time there than I would have gotten at a big name $1000 school. One of our instructors was a long-time service-rifle shooter, and another was a currently-serving and just back from the sandbox SSGT from next door at Ft. Konx. There was one lady who showed up on Sunday who had never fired a rifle before in her life. Her first sighter groups were not even all on the paper. By lunchtime she was shooting into 2 inches at 25 yards! Check 'em out: http://www.appleseedinfo.org/smf/ |
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I don't remember mention of match ammo in the above. I have no idea what the Combloc spec for military rounds is but it's probably in the 2-4 inch range at 100.
US spec is... "U.S. military specifications for M193 Ball ammunition require a 55 grain bullet (q 2 grains) at a muzzle velocity of 3,250 q 40 fps from a 20 inch test barrel measured 15 feet from the muzzle. The accuracy requirement from a test fixture calls for a maximum of a two inch mean radius at 200 yards from ten 10 shot groups (which equates to approximately three MOA). "Statistically average" M193 ranges from 1.2 to 1.6 inches mean radius, which is equivalent to 1.8 to 2.4 MOA. Velocity from an M16 rifle or pressure test barrel usually runs about 3,200 fps due to gas loss through the port. Accuracy is typically around 2 to 2+ MOA from an M16A1 rifle at ranges of 100 to 300 yards. M193 ammunition is suitable for use in 1 twist in 12 inches or faster twists. While commercial sporting rifles in this caliber usually have one in 14 rifling, the M193 boat tailed bullet is barely stabilized with that rate of twist at ambient temperatures, and will not stabilize at all when the air temperature drops below freezing. "NATO specifications for SS109 (U.S. M855) Ball require a 61.7 grain (q 1.5 grains) with a hardened steel penetrator at a velocity of 3,025 fps (q 40 fps) from a 20 inch barrel 25 meters from the muzzle. Typical velocity 15 feet from the M16A2's muzzle is around 3,100 fps. The accuracy requirement from a test fixture equates to a maximum of approximately four MOA over the 100 to 600 yard range. Typical accuracy of average lots in an M16A2 is about 2+ MOA. This round must also penetrate a nominal 10 gauge SAE 1010 or 1020 steel test plate at a range of at least 570 meters (623 yards). The M193 round will penetrate this same plate reliably at 400 yards, and about half the time at 500 yards. The 5.56mm and 7.62mm NATO rounds will penetrate it reliably out to 700 yards or more. Nominal ballistics for M193 and M855 Ball rounds are given in an accompanying table. The tables were constructed from the latest data supplied by the U.S. Army Ballistic Research Laboratory at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Maryland. |
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Quoted:
Ditch the bench, scope, and sandbags, and learn to shoot sling-supported from prone! If you haven't yet done it, go attend a two-day Appleseed shoot and learn to be a Rifleman! Just kidding - sorta. http://www.appleseedinfo.org/smf/ Tpelle, OK first off you can not sight in a rifle free hand, at least I cant and I have never seen anyone that can. Secondly I do like to shoot off hand, sling supprted from the prone position sound a lot like off bags. I have never heard or seen a Appleseed shoot, i will look them up. As for Iron sights I have a flat top and it was cheaper to throw on a scope and rings I have laying around vice buying the rear sights I found... I am still looking. Where I live in New Hampshire you would be hard pressed to find an open spot 300 yards long not even talking about shooting that far. Lee |
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Tpelle,
I dont disagree that you can do it prone. I said you cant do it off hand. I actually did some sitting and kneeling stuff there. I keep saying I am going to keep a matt in my car for shooting prone but seem to forget it. I also joined the apple seed site and to my suprise there are shoots up in my neck of the woods. The 2009 schedule is not out yet but I will check them out, thanks for point ing me in that direction. Lee |
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2-3 MOA with bulgarian surplus ammo is not bad at all.
I don't know of anyone that makes 5.45x39mm 'match' or even brass-cased ammo that's got good quality control, or even if you can reload for it. But that would be the way to test accuracy. Com-bock milsurp ammo isn't usually the most accurate stuff. Best I've ever managed shooting mil-surp ammo was around 1.5-2 MOA with my 91/30 PU mosin sniper rifle and 1960's czech ammo. I'd say most com-block stuff shoots in the 2-6 MOA range. |
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